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Hamas/Israel conflict: news and discussion

I have seen one estimate that Israel had spent around 7m dollars by the 3rd week in October , , which is about £5.5m, on YouTube ads heavily targeting France , Germany and the UK . The Israeli Foreign Affairs Ministry has released over 75 different ads, Politico reported that Google had removed 30 because they did not comply with their guidelines.
 
littlebabyjesus said:
We have replied. You're just not listening. Don't bomb Gaza. Don't kill Palestinians out of revenge. There you go. Start from there.

But you're in that parallel universe where Israel is a reasonable actor in all this, entitled to defend itself. That's not the Israel of this universe. The Israel of this universe is run by people who are itching to enact a genocide against a population they have herded into a concentration camp.

But you're in that parallel universe where Israel is a reasonable actor in all this, entitled to d

So how about you start from here, this situation in this universe.
Click to expand...
Please don't attribute a position to me which I don't hold.

I asked the question in good faith. The reason I asked it is because it was asked of me by my grandson. I don't have an answer, and very much suspected that no one here does either.

Reiterating the circumstances that lead to here does absolutely nothing to solve the problem of how to end this now. There is a pause in fighting (whatever term you care to use) at the moment, expanding that to a permanent pause would be ideal, but unlikely, as neither Hamas nor Israel appear to wish it.

Is it time for the UN to occupy the territory, with the end result being a forcible two state solution?

The fragmented nature of the Israeli parliament doesn't help, small extremist parties hold undue sway.

What an absolute clusterfuck, there are no long term winners here, especially the inhabitants of Gaza whose homes and infrastructure have been destroyed. Who is going to rebuild that.

I am very far from being au fait with all aspects of this, can someone tell me why Egypt is restricting aid passing through their crossing into Gaza.
 
Gramsci said:
Read this scathing article on Mahmoud Abbas and the PA.

www.aljazeera.com

Palestinian authoritarianism has its roots in the Oslo Accords

The Palestinian Authority was never meant to engage in democratic governance and defend the Palestinians’ interests.
www.aljazeera.com www.aljazeera.com

The idea that evil Hamas could be replaced by the nice liberal PA run by Fatah and Abbas would be an improvement for Palestinians is a fantasy.

Article says the peace process has led to a PA that's not democratic, does not stick up for Palestinians and worse cooperates with Israel on "security" matters.

Under Abbas power has been more and more centralised under the President.

The PA security apparatus is third of budget.

This PA suits international community and Israel.

It does nothing to further the cause of the Palestinians.
Click to expand...

One thing I wish people were more aware of is that the immediate alternative to Hamas is considerably more authoritarian/oppressive. Critiques of Hamas domestic governance should always be combined with a critique of the PA and Fatah/Abbas in particular.
 
Sasaferrato said:
I am very far from being au fait with all aspects of this, can someone tell me why Egypt is restricting aid passing through their crossing into Gaza.
Click to expand...
Egypt isn't restricting it. Nothing is allowed in without Israel's permission and Israeli soldiers examining it. Presumably, the reason why Egypt and the UN comply with this is that the trucks would otherwise risk being bombed.
 
Sasaferrato said:
Please don't attribute a position to me which I don't hold.

I asked the question in good faith. The reason I asked it is because it was asked of me by my grandson. I don't have an answer, and very much suspected that no one here does either.

Reiterating the circumstances that lead to here does absolutely nothing to solve the problem of how to end this now. There is a pause in fighting (whatever term you care to use) at the moment, expanding that to a permanent pause would be ideal, but unlikely, as neither Hamas nor Israel appear to wish it.

Is it time for the UN to occupy the territory, with the end result being a forcible two state solution?

The fragmented nature of the Israeli parliament doesn't help, small extremist parties hold undue sway.

What an absolute clusterfuck, there are no long term winners here, especially the inhabitants of Gaza whose homes and infrastructure have been destroyed. Who is going to rebuild that.

I am very far from being au fait with all aspects of this, can someone tell me why Egypt is restricting aid passing through their crossing into Gaza.
Click to expand...
I accept that the question was asked in good faith but you still don't seem to be accepting the answers in good faith. If your grandson thinks Israel is a reasonable actor, he is living in a parallel universe. That's the first thing that needs to be understood - just how despicable the Israeli government's actions have been for decades, but particularly in the last 20 years. They purposely scuppered any chance that the Oslo Accords might produce peace. They purposely fostered the development of Hamas. And that has led them to here.

Asking 'What should Israel do?' is vaguely obscene in such circumstances. Stop killing, stop lying, stop treating Palestinians like sub-humans. Start a process by which you enable the two peoples to share the land of Israel/Palestine in peace. That's been the answer for years, not just since 7 October.
 
Sasaferrato said:
Please don't attribute a position to me which I don't hold.

I asked the question in good faith. The reason I asked it is because it was asked of me by my grandson. I don't have an answer, and very much suspected that no one here does either.

Reiterating the circumstances that lead to here does absolutely nothing to solve the problem of how to end this now. There is a pause in fighting (whatever term you care to use) at the moment, expanding that to a permanent pause would be ideal, but unlikely, as neither Hamas nor Israel appear to wish it.

Is it time for the UN to occupy the territory, with the end result being a forcible two state solution?

The fragmented nature of the Israeli parliament doesn't help, small extremist parties hold undue sway.

What an absolute clusterfuck, there are no long term winners here, especially the inhabitants of Gaza whose homes and infrastructure have been destroyed. Who is going to rebuild that.

I am very far from being au fait with all aspects of this, can someone tell me why Egypt is restricting aid passing through their crossing into Gaza.
Click to expand...

It’s a hefty tome but David Hirst’s The Gun and the Olive Branch is pretty authoritative and will empower you to give an informed answer to your grandson.

 
littlebabyjesus said:
I accept that the question was asked in good faith but you still don't seem to be accepting the answers in good faith. If your grandson thinks Israel is a reasonable actor, he is living in a parallel universe. That's the first thing that needs to be understood - just how despicable the Israeli government's actions have been for decades, but particularly in the last 20 years. They purposely scuppered any chance that the Oslo Accords might produce peace. They purposely fostered the development of Hamas. And that has led them to here.

Asking 'What should Israel do?' is vaguely obscene in such circumstances. Stop killing, stop lying, stop treating Palestinians like sub-humans. Start a process by which you enable the two peoples to share the land of Israel/Palestine in peace. That's been the answer for years, not just since 7 October.
Click to expand...
Yes. That does not solve the current situation though.
 
Sasaferrato said:
Yes. That does not solve the current situation though.
Click to expand...
In what way does it not solve the current situation?

Israel’s position is that genocide solves the current situation. Which do you think is actually the more pragmatic solution? Lbj’s suggestion or Israel’s actions?
 
kabbes said:
In what way does it not solve the current situation?

Israel’s position is that genocide solves the current situation. Which do you think is actually the more pragmatic solution? Lbj’s suggestion or Israel’s actions?
Click to expand...
I was referring to the decades preceding the current horror.
 
Sasaferrato said:
Please don't attribute a position to me which I don't hold.

I asked the question in good faith. The reason I asked it is because it was asked of me by my grandson. I don't have an answer, and very much suspected that no one here does either.

Reiterating the circumstances that lead to here does absolutely nothing to solve the problem of how to end this now. There is a pause in fighting (whatever term you care to use) at the moment, expanding that to a permanent pause would be ideal, but unlikely, as neither Hamas nor Israel appear to wish it.

Is it time for the UN to occupy the territory, with the end result being a forcible two state solution?

The fragmented nature of the Israeli parliament doesn't help, small extremist parties hold undue sway.

What an absolute clusterfuck, there are no long term winners here, especially the inhabitants of Gaza whose homes and infrastructure have been destroyed. Who is going to rebuild that.

I am very far from being au fait with all aspects of this, can someone tell me why Egypt is restricting aid passing through their crossing into Gaza.
Click to expand...
You're not going to get a balanced answer on here.
 
pbsmooth said:
I didn't say I had the answer. I said I can see this forum isn't balanced on this issue.
Click to expand...

Any thoughts about Gramsci's suggestions?

Gramsci said:
Several things Israel governments could have done and could do now.

1. Stop illegal settlement building in West Bank

2. Stop supporting settlers in West Bank. Stop them attacking Palestinian farmers.

3. Acknowledge that keeping blockade on Gaza hasn't made Israel any more safe and secure. It has impoverished the inhabitants of Gaza over the years

It's also against international humanitarian law. And can be considered an act of war.

Israel has in effect been waging war against Palestinians in West Bank and Gaza over decades

It's not that Hamas suddenly decided to attack Israel out of the blue and Israel had to suddenly defend itself. Like it was peace before and Hamas broke it.

Another way to look at is that state of Israel has been on the attack for decades.

And winning. More settlements on West Bank etc
Click to expand...
 
Sasaferrato said:
Please don't attribute a position to me which I don't hold.

I asked the question in good faith. The reason I asked it is because it was asked of me by my grandson. I don't have an answer, and very much suspected that no one here does either.

Reiterating the circumstances that lead to here does absolutely nothing to solve the problem of how to end this now. There is a pause in fighting (whatever term you care to use) at the moment, expanding that to a permanent pause would be ideal, but unlikely, as neither Hamas nor Israel appear to wish it.

Is it time for the UN to occupy the territory, with the end result being a forcible two state solution?

The fragmented nature of the Israeli parliament doesn't help, small extremist parties hold undue sway.

What an absolute clusterfuck, there are no long term winners here, especially the inhabitants of Gaza whose homes and infrastructure have been destroyed. Who is going to rebuild that.

I am very far from being au fait with all aspects of this, can someone tell me why Egypt is restricting aid passing through their crossing into Gaza.
Click to expand...

On what basis do you say that Hamas don't want a ceasefire?
 
teqniq said:
i have absolutely no idea but it seems a bit more than a coincidence.
Click to expand...

There’s a bit more context in the article. Looks like the Israelis arrest a lot of people all of the time.

The vague closeness of numbers released and arrested just looks like one of those things, but more concerning seems to be that they have a history of releasing prisoners when it looks expedient, and later re-arresting them on the same charges.
 
Jesus fucking Christ, just watching the news on the BBC, this is extreme Israeli propaganda.

I dont watch tv really, this is utterly perverse. How is 1 granny the most important thing happening in the uk and the world. What the tories have done to the bbc is twisted.

I know where pbsmooth clearly gets their news from.

Weird, perverse and shocking.
 
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