Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
By showing he's unbalanced
Hamas/Israel conflict: news and discussion
- Thread starter PR1Berske
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Gramsci
Well-Known Member
Been reading about the 1973 war.
Israel had built big defensive system to guard against any attacks by Egypt in Sinai
Three years of planning and Egyptians overan them.
some of reasons for this shock defeat were:
IDF not good at defensive war
Mossad was fooled into thinking no attack would happen
.
The defensive line was not fully manned.
No plan or training on what to do if surprise attack happens.
Belief at high levels that Arabs weren't up to serious fighting. Basically racist view of Arabs
Also arrogance at how previous victories and extension of Israel mini Empire had suceeded leading to over confidence.
Some similarities with Hamas attack.
A well planned audacious attack by Hamas wasn't in Israeli government and military going to happen.
Israel had built big defensive system to guard against any attacks by Egypt in Sinai
Three years of planning and Egyptians overan them.
some of reasons for this shock defeat were:
IDF not good at defensive war
Mossad was fooled into thinking no attack would happen
.
The defensive line was not fully manned.
No plan or training on what to do if surprise attack happens.
Belief at high levels that Arabs weren't up to serious fighting. Basically racist view of Arabs
Also arrogance at how previous victories and extension of Israel mini Empire had suceeded leading to over confidence.
Some similarities with Hamas attack.
A well planned audacious attack by Hamas wasn't in Israeli government and military going to happen.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
If you don't have an answer, how can you know if other people's answers are balanced or not?
Why don't you fuck off somewhere else if you don't like it here?
WhyLikeThis
Something, something, something
Dunno if this has been posted yet or if its been confirmed but here’s your balance
WhyLikeThis
Something, something, something
Hamas hold children hostage. Israel has people under 18 prisoner.
The39thStep
Urban critical thinker
If one was looking for a balanced answer, where would you suggest it would be found?
The39thStep
Urban critical thinker
'Cancelling HS2 will have a bigger impact than Palestine '
The39thStep
Urban critical thinker
Here's a suggestion as to what Israel could have done differently.
Israeli arrogance thwarted a Palestinian political path. October 7 revealed the cost
A Fatah-Hamas agreement in 2021 offered a different political horizon. But success blinded Israel — just as it did before the 1973 war.
www.972mag.com
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
The BBC?
On the one hand, Israel should stop killing babies. On the other hand, Israel should kill more babies. Who's to say which opinion is correct?
Larry O'Hara
Well-Known Member
These people are hostages not just prisoners
Dystopiary
putting up a hook to hang my hopes upon
Dystopiary
putting up a hook to hang my hopes upon
It's been confirmed that Vivian Silver, peace activist and co-founder of Women Wage Peace, has been killed.
She was believed to have been taken hostage after she disappeared on October the 7th, but that was not the case. (Mentioned upthread.)
https://www.womenwagepeace.org.il/en/vivian-silver-peace/
She was believed to have been taken hostage after she disappeared on October the 7th, but that was not the case. (Mentioned upthread.)
https://www.womenwagepeace.org.il/en/vivian-silver-peace/
Dystopiary
putting up a hook to hang my hopes upon
A freelance journalist in Southern Gaza writes that the ceasefire has revealed the devastation the IDF have wreaked. People who have able to have checked on homes to find whole street destroyed, learnt that family members have been killed, friends and neighbours gone.
A displaced mother of six who was able to return to her home found it was destroyed:
Ceasefire reveals the toll of devastation in Khan Younis
A displaced mother of six who was able to return to her home found it was destroyed:
Ceasefire reveals the toll of devastation in Khan Younis
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
He's being paid for his opinion now as well. £150,000 a year.
This is why you can never completely trust a lawyer.
The39thStep
Urban critical thinker
Hard to read too much in a couple of sentences on social media however one way of reading this is that he is calling for a ceasefire?
ska invita
back on the other side
My mum gets all her news solely from BBC and its always interesting to hear her perspective...the narrative there is surely Israel cant go back to bombing after this ceasefire, the international community wouldn't allow that lol.
My expectation is thats exactly what will happen, which puts people like Biden in a slightly awkward spot...Id say he's getting his carefully positioned excuses in early
Biden's tweet feels like a mea culpa - if the US were going to stop Israel in its tank tracks it wouldnt need to send pathetic tweets aimed at a domestic audience like that.
My expectation is thats exactly what will happen, which puts people like Biden in a slightly awkward spot...Id say he's getting his carefully positioned excuses in early
Biden's tweet feels like a mea culpa - if the US were going to stop Israel in its tank tracks it wouldnt need to send pathetic tweets aimed at a domestic audience like that.
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littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
I'm still hopeful that the ceasefire will hold. I'm more hopeful of that now than I was this time last week. Another extension today and I do think it will be very hard to go back to the carpet bombing.
Amazing parallel universe stuff from Biden. Yep, Israelis and Palestinians live side by side in peace on the West Bank. It's definitely not Israelis causing the violence there. And the people of Gaza like it in there. It's cosy. They don't want to work or travel or any of that messy stuff. And there's a handy fence to keep unwanted intruders out.
Amazing parallel universe stuff from Biden. Yep, Israelis and Palestinians live side by side in peace on the West Bank. It's definitely not Israelis causing the violence there. And the people of Gaza like it in there. It's cosy. They don't want to work or travel or any of that messy stuff. And there's a handy fence to keep unwanted intruders out.
ska invita
back on the other side
Perspective from the Economist - the bit in bold seems very likely as its been mooted repeatedly - not carpet bombing perhaps but still war crime destruction. The tiny humanitarian zone is a sadistic joke
"When the truce comes to its inevitable end, Israel will resume its fight against Hamas. Speaking from Gaza on November 26th Binyamin Netanyahu, Israel's prime minister, said: "We have three goals for this war: eliminating Hamas, returning all our hostages, and ensuring that Gaza does not become a threat to the State of Israel again," adding, "we will continue until the end, until victory. Nothing will stop us."
In the next round of fighting Israeli troops will continue to scour the rubble of northern Gaza for tunnel entrances, rocket launchers and other military assets. They have yet to enter a few parts of the region, including Shujaiya, to the east of Gaza city. They will also begin turning their attention elsewhere. Officials are coy about how they might proceed in the south. They cannot easily send armoured units to dominate the area, as they did in the north, because it is so densely packed with civilians displaced from the north.
Instead they might seek to do it piecemeal: pushing into one area at a time, probably starting with the central city of Khan Younis, and trying to force Gazans into a designated "humanitarian zone" near the coast. This is fraught with danger, though. Civilians would have to choose between huddling on a desolate strip of beach and hiding in their homes or makeshift shelters; both could have appalling results. Fighting in densely packed areas without heavy armour will also be more dangerous for Israeli troops.
.....
America would like Israel to hold off on its southern campaign—especially since Mr Netanyahu has no plan for what happens in Gaza after the war. It may urge Israel to continue its offensive in the north and keep the south sealed off, for now, with an expanded flow of humanitarian aid via Egypt. Antony Blinken, the secretary of state, may visit the region again this week. So too will Emmanuel Macron, the French president, who has called for a lasting ceasefire.
If America pressures Israel to hold back, it could spare Gaza's 2.2m people another round of fighting and displacement. But it would also leave them stuck in a crammed, desperate enclave even smaller than the one they lived in before, under a partially disintegrating Hamas regime: it is hard to know which outcome is more depressing.
"When the truce comes to its inevitable end, Israel will resume its fight against Hamas. Speaking from Gaza on November 26th Binyamin Netanyahu, Israel's prime minister, said: "We have three goals for this war: eliminating Hamas, returning all our hostages, and ensuring that Gaza does not become a threat to the State of Israel again," adding, "we will continue until the end, until victory. Nothing will stop us."
In the next round of fighting Israeli troops will continue to scour the rubble of northern Gaza for tunnel entrances, rocket launchers and other military assets. They have yet to enter a few parts of the region, including Shujaiya, to the east of Gaza city. They will also begin turning their attention elsewhere. Officials are coy about how they might proceed in the south. They cannot easily send armoured units to dominate the area, as they did in the north, because it is so densely packed with civilians displaced from the north.
Instead they might seek to do it piecemeal: pushing into one area at a time, probably starting with the central city of Khan Younis, and trying to force Gazans into a designated "humanitarian zone" near the coast. This is fraught with danger, though. Civilians would have to choose between huddling on a desolate strip of beach and hiding in their homes or makeshift shelters; both could have appalling results. Fighting in densely packed areas without heavy armour will also be more dangerous for Israeli troops.
.....
America would like Israel to hold off on its southern campaign—especially since Mr Netanyahu has no plan for what happens in Gaza after the war. It may urge Israel to continue its offensive in the north and keep the south sealed off, for now, with an expanded flow of humanitarian aid via Egypt. Antony Blinken, the secretary of state, may visit the region again this week. So too will Emmanuel Macron, the French president, who has called for a lasting ceasefire.
If America pressures Israel to hold back, it could spare Gaza's 2.2m people another round of fighting and displacement. But it would also leave them stuck in a crammed, desperate enclave even smaller than the one they lived in before, under a partially disintegrating Hamas regime: it is hard to know which outcome is more depressing.
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littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
I don't doubt that the above is what Netanyahu would like to do. Doesn't mean he will be able to do it, though. If Israel does do something like that, yes it will be desperate for the people of Gaza, but it will be bad for Israel's long-term prospects as well. Perhaps disastrously so.
Idris2002
canadian girlfriend
There are only two ways this ends - peace with justice for all within the territory of the former Palestinian mandate (regardless of this being a one-state or two-state solution, it will have to be a one-space solution), or genocide.
Which seems more likely right now?
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
I honestly find it hard to judge what is more likely right now.
I think continuing the genocide is an act of self-destruction ultimately for Israel. It will have to stop at some point with the job unfinished, and the longer it continues, the worse its position will be when it stops.
Whagwan
.
That is covered in the thread. It makes the case that he might not be a hypocrite for presenting these arguments, but it does show that he does have a clear understanding of the international law in this area...
MickiQ
In My Defence I was left Unsupervised
There are two ways this ends
1. The fighting continues until Hamas is destroyed (or at least Netanyahu can convince the Israeli populace they are) and what's left of the Gazans huddle in the ruins of their homes under even tighter security lockdown than before
2. The Gazan population leaves either voluntarily or driven out at gunpoint and is resettled elsewhere presumably in the rest of the Arab world (though there is the not insignificant problem that the rest of the Arab world doesn't want them)
A one state solution is not going to happen since it would soon cease to be a Jewish state and that would be totally unacceptable to the people whose opinions count (which does not include any Palestinians) and Israel has made no attempt to do more than pretend they are serious about a two state solution especially on pre-1967 borders which actually includes land that is currently part of Israel proper rather than just the West Bank/Gaza.
No Israeli political party is going to campaign on the basis of transferring Israeli citizens to live under Palestinian rule or forcing them to leave their homes.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
First, you've created a false dichotomy there. It isn't either Israeli or Palestinian rule. It's some hodge-potch fudge of the two, with guarantees for both sides and messy, uncomfortable compromises. We see similar in Northern Ireland.
Second, people said very similar things to this in the 1980s wrt South Africa. No way the white South Africans would ever accept majority rule, particularly rural Afrikaans farmers who feared being pushed off their land. Yet accept it they did, and the transition was peaceful.
MickiQ
In My Defence I was left Unsupervised
Neither of those are comparable, NI was a truly unique situation in that membership of the EU and thus ever open borders provided the opportunity for a compromise in which both parties were able to gain almost everything they wanted without the other side giving anything up.
South Africa was a single state in which most of the population was disenfranchised, it's more like comparing it to this country around the turn of the last century where the vote was slowly extended to all.
I don't support the actions of either the Zionists or Hamas but I can understand both. The Zionists look at history and see themselves as the eternal victims (forgetting that they now have one of the most powerful militaries in the world)
Anything other than a Jewish state with a Jewish majority is an absolute non-starter. If I was a Jewish citizen living in an area that I thought might go under Palestinian control I would be dead set against it even though I would be condemning the current actions of my Govt.
The Palestinians also see themselves as the eternal victims driven from their land, If I was Palestinian I can't imagine I would want to live in a Jewish state even if I could vote.
As for guarantees? Guarantees by whom? The UN which has zero credibility with the Israeli establishment, The US? hardly seen as neutral by the Palestinians.
As for compromises well the Zionists don't want to and don't need to so why should they? Hamas don't want too either not that it matters what they want.
Beside even if a deal could be thrashed out what happens 20 years down the line when the Palestinian population is in the majority and Islamists start talking about restricting the rights of the Jews or making it compulsory for women to cover their hair in public? For all their failings Netanyahu and those around him can do simple arithmetic. In our cosy secular viewpoint we're forgetting just how much religion along with race is part of this very toxic mix.
Any hope for a peaceful solution died on October 7 (not that it wasn't pretty sickly to begin with), this ends in blood and fire.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
No, it really isn't.
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