Hamas/Israel conflict: news and discussion

[Pickman's model]

Well some simple googling puts the IDF casualties at somewhere between 300-400 they might very well be undereporting so maybe the real figure is 500-600 but it's not going to be 5000-6000 though
Even 500-600 let alone 300-400 is not a lot out of a mobilisation of 100,000's especially when it seems obvious this is a regime and a military that feels itself to be on a mission.
Plus this is after 2 months of fighting, the IDF has not and probably never will be able to totally end Hamas ability to fight but it has degraded it. IDF casualties aren't going to start rising exponentially, 2 months from now the figure will be higher but I doubt it will have doubled never mind gone up by a factor of 10 or 20.
So what if shit as you say hits the fan in Lebanon, Hezbollah can make a pain of itself and kill Israeli soldiers and civilians but it can't invade Israel or threaten its territorial integrity and any injury will be returned tenfold. As for the harm inflicted on the Lebanese well no-one cares now they won't start anytime soon.
As for the Netanyahu Govt well it won't achieve the unachievable but it doesn't have to, it merely needs to reduce as much as possible the possibility of another October 7 terrorist attack. Peace to Netanyahu is a end to terrorist attacks not a just solution. Turning Gaza into a wasteland and fully locking down the border will largely do that.

No you haven't offered any evidence, you've offered perspectives on historical events. I cast no doubt upon them but they're not relevant going forward from now any more than the various YouTube videos offering either the Israeli or Palestinian 'side' of history.

And I say this with nothing but the greatness of sadness but it is your belief that there is still any possibility of some kind of solution that will be fair and equitable to the Palestinians.
I cannot see any way this will not end without the effective if not actual obliteration of the Palestinians.

Touched a nerve I see with your so what if shit hits the fan. Because obviously only someone wrapped up in winning an internet argument wouldn't see the real world consequences of another zionist slaughter in Lebanon nor the real world consequences that might follow that. You say no one would care but that's a very cavalier attitude to take to what might easily spark a regional war not to mention topple governments elsewhere in the area.

You say, and here you're on safer territory, that the losses of some hundreds or thousands of zionist soldiers can be absorbed by the idf. But we don't know who these soldiers are, their rank, the areas in which they served. It's very possible, even likely, that many of them were trained in tunnel warfare, and tbh that's not a capability that can be easily gained and would take time to replace.

I don't think Netanyahu will need worry about future terrorist attacks as the general feeling seems to be he'll be defenestrated as soon as possible. I wonder how the idf will view itself in this period of post-post-heroic soldiering now they'll be known round the world as the greatest force of child-killers on the planet. It's not the six day war, it's not entebbe, it's not imo going to be so many years before you'll see today's gallant zionists start topping themselves. And frankly it can't come soon enough.

 

[ska invita]

For those expecting the ceasefire to stand, Netanyahu tonight

"There is no situation in which we do not go back to fighting until the end. This is my policy. The entire security cabinet is behind it. The entire government is behind it. The soldiers are behind it. The people are behind it - this is exactly what we will do."

 

[MickiQ]

If this is your considered view why are you doing long posts here? What is the point?

Same as you I would hope debating events in the real world neither of us can actually effect.

You've spoken a lot of nonsense in recent posts, but do you seriously believe this, that Israel makes itself safer by behaving in this way?

Do you really not see why the opposite is true?

ETA:

And here we have an example of how you don't have a hope of understanding what is going on without knowing some history. You think Netanyahu and his government are motivated in their current actions by a desire to ensure another 7 October never happens? They might say that's why they're doing it, but do you believe them?

yes and no, I believe that is one of their objectives but wouldn't disagree they have loads of others such as grabbing more land and further restricting the rights of the Palestinians.
It will make Israel safer in the short to medium term but definitely not in the longer one but I don't think they care too much about that at the moment. Taking the long view doesn't really seem to be their thing.

 

[teqniq]

For those expecting the ceasefire to stand, Netanyahu tonight

"There is no situation in which we do not go back to fighting until the end. This is my policy. The entire security cabinet is behind it. The entire government is behind it. The soldiers are behind it. The people are behind it - this is exactly what we will do."

I am not expecting one, rather hoping for it. As for Netenyahu he knows he is toast after all this is over and is I surmise looking for some kind of validation from all this that somehow saves his arse. The hard right loons are of course onside with all of this and can't wait for the carnage to resume.

 

[ska invita]

I am not expecting one, rather hoping for it. As for Netenyahu he knows he is toast after all this is over and is I surmise looking for some kind of validation from all this that somehow saves his arse. The hard right loons are of course onside with all of this and can't wait for the carnage to resume.

Netanyahu and the far right loons are the government, so I think it's fair to expect them to act as they wish

 

[WhyLikeThis]

If you were in any doubt about the intentions of Israel.

 

[Gramsci]

Same as you I would hope debating events in the real world neither of us can actually effect.

Im finding this borderline nihilistic. Its the whatever one says its not going to work. Its all just going to happen and thats that.

I get this occasionally from the "They run everything" lot I occasionally bump into. Whatever one say the retort is but they run everything and their is nothing you can do about it. Your wasting your time.

Or on this particular one the its all about religion they are both as bad as each other lot. They are always going to kill each other and thats is how it is and how it will stay.

There are little things one can do:

Go on marches ( the level of international support by ordinary people means a lot to Palestinians)

Write to MP - this pressure has meant some MPs on Labour side have felt emboldened to stand up to Starmer

 

[Lurdan]

If you were in any doubt about the intentions of Israel.

For those who don't do x-twitter here's x-twitters machine translation of the above:

Tonight, the cornerstone is laid in the Gaza Strip for the settlement "Ofir" named after the former head of the Negev Gate Council, the late Ofir Liebstein, who was murdered by Hamas. Ofir was a leader, a man of the Land of Israel, a man of construction, a man of settlement. Children will grow up here And girls who will be educated about his contribution, his heroism and his sacrifice. We will restore the settlements, expand the settlements and add more settlements. The wheat will grow again.

 

[Dystopiary]

For those who don't do x-twitter here's x-twitters machine translation of the above:

Thanks Lurdan.

 

[Pickman's model]

Well some simple googling puts the IDF casualties at somewhere between 300-400 they might very well be undereporting so maybe the real figure is 500-600 but it's not going to be 5000-6000 though
Even 500-600 let alone 300-400 is not a lot out of a mobilisation of 100,000's especially when it seems obvious this is a regime and a military that feels itself to be on a mission.
Plus this is after 2 months of fighting, the IDF has not and probably never will be able to totally end Hamas ability to fight but it has degraded it. IDF casualties aren't going to start rising exponentially, 2 months from now the figure will be higher but I doubt it will have doubled never mind gone up by a factor of 10 or 20.
So what if shit as you say hits the fan in Lebanon, Hezbollah can make a pain of itself and kill Israeli soldiers and civilians but it can't invade Israel or threaten its territorial integrity and any injury will be returned tenfold. As for the harm inflicted on the Lebanese well no-one cares now they won't start anytime soon.
As for the Netanyahu Govt well it won't achieve the unachievable but it doesn't have to, it merely needs to reduce as much as possible the possibility of another October 7 terrorist attack. Peace to Netanyahu is a end to terrorist attacks not a just solution. Turning Gaza into a wasteland and fully locking down the border will largely do that.

No you haven't offered any evidence, you've offered perspectives on historical events. I cast no doubt upon them but they're not relevant going forward from now any more than the various YouTube videos offering either the Israeli or Palestinian 'side' of history.

And I say this with nothing but the greatness of sadness but it is your belief that there is still any possibility of some kind of solution that will be fair and equitable to the Palestinians.
I cannot see any way this will not end without the effective if not actual obliteration of the Palestinians.

Some simple googling eh perhaps you could simply provide the link you rely on that specifies casualties in gaza after 8 October.

 

[spring-peeper]

 

[littlebabyjesus]

For those who don't do x-twitter here's x-twitters machine translation of the above:

The rhetoric and the reality become ever more divorced from one another.

Of course he is sabre-rattling. What else would he do at this point other than this kind of brinksmanship? I'm still hopeful, just hours before this truce ends, that they will grant another extension.

Meanwhile the Israelis continue to sink further and further. This does them no favours.

 

[PTK]

Horrific.

 

[Cid]

For those who don't do x-twitter here's x-twitters machine translation of the above:

Note that there's a clarification on the tweet saying part is a mistranslation; the quite critical point being that it does not actually say Gaza strip, but Gaza envelope. It is quite obviously still sabre rattling, but it isn't explicitly crossing the line of actually laying a foundation stone in the gaza strip.

 

[MickiQ]

Touched a nerve I see with your so what if shit hits the fan. Because obviously only someone wrapped up in winning an internet argument wouldn't see the real world consequences of another zionist slaughter in Lebanon nor the real world consequences that might follow that. You say no one would care but that's a very cavalier attitude to take to what might easily spark a regional war not to mention topple governments elsewhere in the area.

You say, and here you're on safer territory, that the losses of some hundreds or thousands of zionist soldiers can be absorbed by the idf. But we don't know who these soldiers are, their rank, the areas in which they served. It's very possible, even likely, that many of them were trained in tunnel warfare, and tbh that's not a capability that can be easily gained and would take time to replace.

I don't think Netanyahu will need worry about future terrorist attacks as the general feeling seems to be he'll be defenestrated as soon as possible. I wonder how the idf will view itself in this period of post-post-heroic soldiering now they'll be known round the world as the greatest force of child-killers on the planet. It's not the six day war, it's not entebbe, it's not imo going to be so many years before you'll see today's gallant zionists start topping themselves. And frankly it can't come soon enough.

What do you mean by win? Is there some prize I am eligible to claim? Do you imagine I actually care about point scoring in debates with random strangers? Do you?

Im finding this borderline nihilistic. Its the whatever one says its not going to work. Its all just going to happen and thats that.

I get this occasionally from the "They run everything" lot I occasionally bump into. Whatever one say the retort is but they run everything and their is nothing you can do about it. Your wasting your time.

Or on this particular one the its all about religion they are both as bad as each other lot. They are always going to kill each other and thats is how it is and how it will stay.

There are little things one can do:

Go on marches ( the level of international support by ordinary people means a lot to Palestinians)

Write to MP - this pressure has meant some MPs on Labour side have felt emboldened to stand up to Starmer

I haven't been on any marches though I know people that have. For the most part they're not crackpot lefties but decent people who are naturally (as am I) upset by what they see unfolding on their TV screens and I have no wish to denigrate their heartfelt and well-meaning efforts and their desire to do 'something', I can fully understand and sympathise with it.

As for whether the marches will change anything how is that going so far? I notice you're on about Keir "I will sell my granny for a few extra votes' Starmer not Joe Biden or Benjamin Netanyahu.
Even if you succeed in changing Starmer's mind (unlikely since I think he has probably decided that showing solidarity with the US position is more important than dissent with the Labour Party) what difference do you think that will make? Starmer isn't PM (not that Sunak gets that much of a say either) and the fighting at least will probably be over before he is.

 

[klang]

Starmer isn't PM (not that Sunak gets that much of a say either) and the fighting at least will probably be over before he is.

When do you think he will be pm and what makes you think the fighting will be over by then?

 

[MickiQ]

When do you think he will be pm and what makes you think the fighting will be over by then?

I think (don't know of course) that the GE will be around summer next year and whilst his lead in the poll is due more to dislike for Sunak than enthusiasm for him, I can't see that changing much without something totally out of the blue.
I really can't imagine this degree of military activity continuing to summer can you? I can see a Gazan occupation not to disimilar to the current situation in the West Bank where IDF soldiers patrol the streets, get sniped at and respond brutally but not a military campaign on the current scale. Do you? Considering the damage the IDF has done in the past 2 months, if they keep it up for 6 or 7 they might as well drop an atomic bomb for the damage they will have done.

 

[klang]

I think (don't know of course) that the GE will be around summer next year and whilst his lead in the poll is due more to dislike for Sunak than enthusiasm for him, I can't see that changing much without something totally out of the blue.
I really can't imagine this degree of military activity continuing to summer can you? I can see a Gazan occupation not to disimilar to the current situation in the West Bank where IDF soldiers patrol the streets, get sniped at and respond brutally but not a military campaign on the current scale. Do you? Considering the damage the IDF has done in the past 2 months, if they keep it up for 6 or 7 they might as well drop an atomic bomb for the damage they will have done.

I don't know how the military campaign will develop, but the fighting won't be over.

 

[zahir]

+972 investigation into Israel's targeting in Gaza

‘A mass assassination factory’: Inside Israel’s calculated bombing of Gaza

Permissive airstrikes on non-military targets and the use of an AI system have enabled the Israeli army to carry out its deadliest war on Gaza.

www.972mag.com

 

[The39thStep]

+972 investigation into Israel's targeting in Gaza

‘A mass assassination factory’: Inside Israel’s calculated bombing of Gaza

Permissive airstrikes on non-military targets and the use of an AI system have enabled the Israeli army to carry out its deadliest war on Gaza.

www.972mag.com

Very interesting article . The subject matter is particularly disturbing. .There are a couple of themes in there about the strategy and the use of AI which deserve a deeper delve imo.

 

[ska invita]

i mean they've destroyed literally everything in northern gaza, their 4 categories of targets includes everything, doesn't need AI to come with target ideas when thats what you are doing

 

[littlebabyjesus]

i mean they've destroyed literally everything in northern gaza, their 4 categories of targets includes everything, doesn't need AI to come with target ideas when thats what you are doing

Yep. As the article says:

According to the sources, the increasing use of AI-based systems like Habsora allows the army to carry out strikes on residential homes where a single Hamas member lives on a massive scale, even those who are junior Hamas operatives. Yet testimonies of Palestinians in Gaza suggest that since October 7, the army has also attacked many private residences where there was no known or apparent member of Hamas or any other militant group residing. Such strikes, sources confirmed to +972 and Local Call, can knowingly kill entire families in the process.

Where do they get their information about where 'Hamas operatives' might be anyway? Is it from the same source that told them there was a massive command centre under al-Shifa Hospital?

Smells of bullshit.

 

[ska invita]

i do believe thats whats going in military command, but the ultimate command is keep going till we've destroyed everything, so.....
no doubt the british army issue methodical and serious sounding commands about what they are doing when they illegally invade and torture too

 

[littlebabyjesus]

i do believe thats whats going in military command, but the ultimate command is keep going till we've destroyed everything, so.....
no doubt the british army issue methodical and serious sounding commands about what they are doing when they illegally invade and torture too

Just sounds to me like a boast about how advanced they are, if the reports are true. Even if it's true and they're using fancy-dan AI, it's still a case of junk-in, junk-out. The AI can't work out where the Hamas people live on its own. Someone has to provide information. And as we have repeatedly seen, Israel's supposed prowess in intelligence gathering is somewhat overstated.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Here are some numbers for Israel's hostage taking. Sorry, administrative detention. Note that the sharp rise in hostage taking started before 7 October.

 

[WhyLikeThis]

i mean they've destroyed literally everything in northern gaza, their 4 categories of targets includes everything, doesn't need AI to come with target ideas when thats what you are doing

One of the problems states have had to struggle against is that most people do not want to kill other people. Using “computer says yes” takes that problem away.

 

[teqniq]

Seems like a real charmer:

Sara Netanyahu's adviser calls for torture of Gaza residents involved in killing Israelis

Tzipi Navon, an adviser to Benjamin Netanyahu's wife, also hit out at 'traitor' leftists in her Facebook post

www.middleeasteye.net

Spoiler: Image of facebook post

I tried checking her FB but she's locked her account. I wonder why?

 

[Johnny Vodka]

Seems like a real charmer:

Sara Netanyahu's adviser calls for torture of Gaza residents involved in killing Israelis

Tzipi Navon, an adviser to Benjamin Netanyahu's wife, also hit out at 'traitor' leftists in her Facebook post

www.middleeasteye.net

Spoiler: Image of facebook post

View attachment 402315

I tried checking her FB but she's locked her account. I wonder why?

And yet the narrative is always that it's the Arabs who want to see every last Jew cruelly exterminated.

 

[ska invita]

One of the problems states have had to struggle against is that most people do not want to kill other people. Using “computer says yes” takes that problem away.

Absolutely agree - was ever thus - thats what military command is all about - im just following orders

 

[WhyLikeThis]

I cannot get my head around the trauma constantly inflicted on a nation. How do you begin to unpick this?