littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
When I'm asked what an abuser should do, my response is generally 'stop abusing'.
That has applied for decades, not just since 7 October.
That has applied for decades, not just since 7 October.
to be fair to poor 8ball, hamas is winning the propaganda war. not, perhaps, through its own efforts, by becoming the most popular people in the world, but by having orchestrated a situation in which the idf and the zionists' government have been abjectly humiliated, the palestinians' plight returning to front pages across the world, and any sympathy the zionists had after october 7 evaporating in the light of the genocidal onslaught on gaza and the murders of palestinians in the west bank. hamas have ensured that unless a just peace ensues (which is yeh as likely as sharon being the next zionist pm) palestinian hatred for the zionists will continue for generations to come. the west has been caught out in rather a bind, with support for ukraine and support for the zionist entity being inconsistent with proclaimed support for international law. the west has in large measure lost support in the global south over support for the brutal, murderous onslaught it has widely applauded and supported in gaza, and this may take years to regain if indeed a measure of trust returns.
while hamas may not be the direct beneficiary of anti-zionist sentiment in this country, in large parts of the world i expect it's done very nicely in terms of gaining support.
Hard to tell what people in neighbouring countries are thinking about Hamas thoughAgain, I really dispute whether Hamas is winning any propaganda war. Israel is losing one, definitely, and Palestine in general is winning one. But not Hamas - except maybe among a certain Muslim tendency worldwide (but not even among all Muslims IMO)
Hard to tell what people in neighbouring countries are thinking about Hamas though
Coverage of Israel/Palestine on the likes of the BBC has followed a particular pattern for years. Palestinians do something then Israel responds. It's never framed as Israel doing something then Palestinians responding, despite the fact that, when you look at those actions as a sum total, it is clear who the violent, murderous oppressor is.I disagree. I honestly don't think that they do.
Hamas were well aware what the result of their actions would be. They are not at all bothered about the deaths in Gaza per se, they see the deaths as a price worth paying propaganda wise.
There has been much on the thread about what Israel shouldn't have done, but nothing as to what they should have done.
What should they have done in response to an attack that killed over 1000 people, and took a couple of hundred hostage? This is not a rhetorical question, I am genuinely interested in what U75 feels that the response should have been. It is very easy to say 'Oh, they shouldn't have done that', not so easy to say what should have been done.
My own view is that the response has been disproportionate, I keep seeing this described as a 'war'. It isn't, it is a punitive lashing out in revenge.
What should Israel have done? I don't know, other than it couldn't have been nothing.
And people wonder why I hate the BBC…
hamas is being largely sidelined in many narratives which pose the zionists as the villain and the palestinians as the victims with hamas being crushed out of the tale in many ways. which is for hamas really good compared to how they might be treated.Again, I really dispute whether Hamas is winning any propaganda war. Israel is losing one, definitely, and Palestine in general is winning one. But not Hamas - except maybe among a certain Muslim tendency worldwide (but not even among all Muslims IMO)
Maybe the average Palestinian does, but Netanyahu and Ben-Gvir have consistently signalled that they don't give a damn about the hostages.I don't think Israel gives a fuck about the 'propaganda war', they do give a fuck about their dead citizens and those who have been kidnapped.
yeh but propaganda war gives a fuck about the zionistsI don't think Israel gives a fuck about the 'propaganda war', they do give a fuck about their dead citizens and those who have been kidnapped.
Several things Israel governments could have done and could do now.
1. Stop illegal settlement building in West Bank
2. Stop supporting settlers in West Bank. Stop them attacking Palestinian farmers.
3. Acknowledge that keeping blockade on Gaza hasn't made Israel any more safe and secure. It has impoverished the inhabitants of Gaza over the years
It's also against international humanitarian law. And can be considered an act of war.
Israel has in effect been waging war against Palestinians in West Bank and Gaza over decades
It's not that Hamas suddenly decided to attack Israel out of the blue and Israel had to suddenly defend itself.
Another way to look at is that state of Israel has been on the attack for decades.
And winning. More settlements on West Bank etc
Correct, but that is not what I'm asking.Coverage of Israel/Palestine on the likes of the BBC has followed a particular pattern for years. Palestinians do something then Israel responds. It's never framed as Israel doing something then Palestinians responding, despite the fact that, when you look at those actions as a sum total, it is clear who the violent, murderous oppressor is.
Here, you've done a similar thing. On 7 October, Hamas did something. Now how should Israel respond? But what was Hamas's action itself a response to? This conflict did not start on 7 October.
With everyone on about international law perhaps the zionists might announce their intention to abide by security Council resolution 242 and make preparations to withdraw settlers, police, and armed forces accordinglySeveral things Israel governments could have done and could do now.
1. Stop illegal settlement building in West Bank
2. Stop supporting settlers in West Bank. Stop them attacking Palestinian farmers.
3. Acknowledge that keeping blockade on Gaza hasn't made Israel any more safe and secure. It has impoverished the inhabitants of Gaza over the years
It's also against international humanitarian law. And can be considered an act of war.
Israel has in effect been waging war against Palestinians in West Bank and Gaza over decades
It's not that Hamas suddenly decided to attack Israel out of the blue and Israel had to suddenly defend itself. Like it was peace before and Hamas broke it.
Another way to look at is that state of Israel has been on the attack for decades.
And winning. More settlements on West Bank etc
Perhaps the structure for any Palestinian state is a matter for the PalestiniansRead this scathing article on Mahmoud Abbas and the PA.
Palestinian authoritarianism has its roots in the Oslo Accords
The Palestinian Authority was never meant to engage in democratic governance and defend the Palestinians’ interests.www.aljazeera.com
The idea that evil Hamas could be replaced by the nice liberal PA run by Fatah and Abbas would be an improvement for Palestinians is a fantasy.
Article says the peace process has led to a PA that's not democratic, does not stick up for Palestinians and worse cooperates with Israel on "security" matters.
Under Abbas power has been more and more centralised under the President.
The PA security apparatus is third of budget.
This PA suits international community and Israel.
It does nothing to further the cause of the Palestinians.
It's not surprising that that kind of regime has emerged given the conditions under which it was formed. The Palestinian 'state' is not sovereign and never has been. In such circumstances, corruption is pretty much inevitable. That's what made Hamas attractive in the first place, of course.Read this scathing article on Mahmoud Abbas and the PA.
Palestinian authoritarianism has its roots in the Oslo Accords
The Palestinian Authority was never meant to engage in democratic governance and defend the Palestinians’ interests.www.aljazeera.com
The idea that evil Hamas could be replaced by the nice liberal PA run by Fatah and Abbas would be an improvement for Palestinians is a fantasy.
Article says the peace process has led to a PA that's not democratic, does not stick up for Palestinians and worse cooperates with Israel on "security" matters.
Under Abbas power has been more and more centralised under the President.
The PA security apparatus is third of budget.
This PA suits international community and Israel.
It does nothing to further the cause of the Palestinians.
Yes, I appreciate that this is not something in isolation.
Perhaps the structure for any Palestinian state is a matter for the Palestinians
I think we are all in agreement on that.I was being serious in my three suggestions of things Israel could do in response.
The three things aren't threatening Israel state. They are stopping doing things that Israel state has repeatedly been told are against international law.
It's things like this that have fed into the conflict.
We have replied. You're just not listening. Don't bomb Gaza. Don't kill Palestinians out of revenge. There you go. Start from there.I think we are all in agreement on that.
That does not however answer the question which I asked.
Once again, I ask what you think Israel should have done in response to the current situation.
Everyone is very vocal about what Israel shouldn't have done (Current Situation), no one seems to have any suggestions as to how they should have responded to their citizens being killed and abducted.
I think we are all in agreement on that.
That does not however answer the question which I asked.
Once again, I ask what you think Israel should have done in response to the current situation.
Everyone is very vocal about what Israel shouldn't have done (Current Situation), no one seems to have any suggestions as to how they should have responded to their citizens being killed and abducted.
no one's saying they're a reasonable government. as lbj pointed out, it is a state or authority that has developed under peculiar conditions. the palestinian authority has hardly benefited from being sidelined as much as possible by the zionists in favour of er hamas. but i daresay that in the event of a genuine two-state set-up being er set up that the current incumbents in the pa would be given the bum's rushI'm rather afraid the Palestinians aren't going to be asked any time soon.
The article also says that the large security apparatus the PA has developed over the years under Abbas is also to stop any grass roots Palestinian action. Such as first Intifada. Which was genuinely grass roots.
far fewer cards but rather more gunsI increasingly think that Israel has shit the bed over this. It won't achieve an ethnic cleansing of Gaza and what eventually emerges will be a peace process in which Israel holds far fewer cards than it held back in the 1990s.
No doubt by day forty five he will make a fulsome "confession"Israel extends detention of Shifa director for 45 days
'pending investigations' Into what, pray tell? How he managed to oversee the running of a hospital in truly appalling conditions perchance?
Just on the problematic (to put it mildly) social media rumours about organ harvesting and similar.
The human rights of the Israel-Palestine conflict in broad terms are not ignored or unreported on. If really outrageous shit like that was happening and there was credible evidence for it then Amnesty International and B'Tselem etc. would be all over it. If something appears as a rumour on social media and it only exists on social media or blogs by people of no particular credibility then that's a big red flag. There are several big human rights reports on previous incursions into Gaza, there is a lot of excellent reporting (eg. Al Jazeera English) about what is happening now, there's a lot of really terrible things happening that we know about. There is a lot of international focus on Israel (and boy do they hate it!). Credible information is voluminous already, we don't need social media rumours.
If I remember rightly, the organ harvesting was a story in a (Swedish?) newspaper about a decade ago so there was perhaps a reasonably credible source for it once, but it's been long debunked or at least shown to have no basis. If this is the first time you've heard about it and you repeat it, then you're not an anti-semite but you have screwed up. It is entirely fair to say that those who are very insistent on this theory are doing so for dubious conspiracy theory (and almost surely anti-semitic) reasons.
Bodies being kept on ice and not being released is a new one on me, but again this is absolutely the sort of thing human rights groups would be onto if it were happening. It would clearly not be something that could be happening in secret.
These are also weird claims. Designed to make you think Israelis are up to something particularly godless, messing with the dead. As an atheist, I don't like using that term but I do think that's what those spreading the rumours are going for.
It is important to be aware of this sort of thing. There really are anti-semites who attach themselves to the Palestinian cause. I think they are more marginal than is often thought, but they are certainly out there and should be countered. It is a duty for all of us to be aware. There are anti-semitic theories that aren't anti-semitic in a technical clear cut way and appear as criticism of Israel. The organ harvesting one is a big one. The theory that Israel was funding/backing ISIS is/was another.
I don't want the above to be a lecture at Aladdin. Everybody screws up now and then. There's a broader point to make.