littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
When I'm asked what an abuser should do, my response is generally 'stop abusing'.
That has applied for decades, not just since 7 October.
That has applied for decades, not just since 7 October.
Hamas/Israel conflict: news and discussion
- Thread starter PR1Berske
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mojo pixy
שיר חדש
Again, I really dispute whether Hamas is winning any propaganda war. Israel is losing one, definitely, and Palestine in general is winning one. But not Hamas - except maybe among a certain Muslim tendency worldwide (but not even among all Muslims IMO)
ska invita
back on the other side
Hard to tell what people in neighbouring countries are thinking about Hamas though
mojo pixy
שיר חדש
Well Egypt doesn't want them because Hamas is essentially the Muslim Brotherhood. So views on Hamas outside of Gaza probably hinge on how the Muslim Brotherhood is perceived, more than on how Palestinians are perceived.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
Coverage of Israel/Palestine on the likes of the BBC has followed a particular pattern for years. Palestinians do something then Israel responds. It's never framed as Israel doing something then Palestinians responding, despite the fact that, when you look at those actions as a sum total, it is clear who the violent, murderous oppressor is.
Here, you've done a similar thing. On 7 October, Hamas did something. Now how should Israel respond? But what was Hamas's action itself a response to? This conflict did not start on 7 October.
Larry O'Hara
Well-Known Member
And people wonder why I hate the BBC…
Language activists accuse BBC of mistranslating released Palestinian prisoner interview
www.middleeasteye.net
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
hamas is being largely sidelined in many narratives which pose the zionists as the villain and the palestinians as the victims with hamas being crushed out of the tale in many ways. which is for hamas really good compared to how they might be treated.
Idris2002
canadian girlfriend
Maybe the average Palestinian does, but Netanyahu and Ben-Gvir have consistently signalled that they don't give a damn about the hostages.
It's easy to forget how bad those two are: it's as if late 80s South Africa had been led by Andries Treurnicht and Eugene Terreblanche instead of Botha and De Klerk.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
yeh but propaganda war gives a fuck about the zionists
Gramsci
Well-Known Member
Several things Israel governments could have done and could do now.
1. Stop illegal settlement building in West Bank
2. Stop supporting settlers in West Bank. Stop them attacking Palestinian farmers.
3. Acknowledge that keeping blockade on Gaza hasn't made Israel any more safe and secure. It has impoverished the inhabitants of Gaza over the years
It's also against international humanitarian law. And can be considered an act of war.
Israel has in effect been waging war against Palestinians in West Bank and Gaza over decades
It's not that Hamas suddenly decided to attack Israel out of the blue and Israel had to suddenly defend itself. Like it was peace before and Hamas broke it.
Another way to look at is that state of Israel has been on the attack for decades.
And winning. More settlements on West Bank etc
1. Stop illegal settlement building in West Bank
2. Stop supporting settlers in West Bank. Stop them attacking Palestinian farmers.
3. Acknowledge that keeping blockade on Gaza hasn't made Israel any more safe and secure. It has impoverished the inhabitants of Gaza over the years
It's also against international humanitarian law. And can be considered an act of war.
Israel has in effect been waging war against Palestinians in West Bank and Gaza over decades
It's not that Hamas suddenly decided to attack Israel out of the blue and Israel had to suddenly defend itself. Like it was peace before and Hamas broke it.
Another way to look at is that state of Israel has been on the attack for decades.
And winning. More settlements on West Bank etc
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Sasaferrato
Super Refuser!
Yes, I appreciate that this is not something in isolation.
ska invita
back on the other side
Israel not supporting and funding Hamas goes on the list at #72
Sasaferrato
Super Refuser!
Correct, but that is not what I'm asking.
What I am asking is what do YOU think Israel should have done in the current situation? It is a valid question.
I fully appreciate that this is not something out of the blue.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
There's a problem with the question, though. 'What would you do if you were Israel?' I wouldn't be Israel, not the Israel as currently run.
If I were Netanyahu, I'd probably react violently because that would be the best way for me to cling to power and I'd also be someone who doesn't give a shit about killing people.
Effectively, you're asking me to put myself in the shoes of a murderer. If I were magically to inhabit the body of Benjamin Netanyahu all of a sudden but I still had my mind not his mind of a murderer, I'd give up power, dissolve the government and hand myself in to the authorities while begging forgiveness for all that I have done.
What other kind of answer do you want? The cries from every protest have been 'ceasefire now'. Given the chance to make Israel do something, I'd make them ceasefire now. That was true on 8 October, it's true now.
If I were Netanyahu, I'd probably react violently because that would be the best way for me to cling to power and I'd also be someone who doesn't give a shit about killing people.
Effectively, you're asking me to put myself in the shoes of a murderer. If I were magically to inhabit the body of Benjamin Netanyahu all of a sudden but I still had my mind not his mind of a murderer, I'd give up power, dissolve the government and hand myself in to the authorities while begging forgiveness for all that I have done.
What other kind of answer do you want? The cries from every protest have been 'ceasefire now'. Given the chance to make Israel do something, I'd make them ceasefire now. That was true on 8 October, it's true now.
Gramsci
Well-Known Member
Read this scathing article on Mahmoud Abbas and the PA.
www.aljazeera.com
The idea that evil Hamas could be replaced by the nice liberal PA run by Fatah and Abbas would be an improvement for Palestinians is a fantasy.
Article says the peace process has led to a PA that's not democratic, does not stick up for Palestinians and worse cooperates with Israel on "security" matters.
Under Abbas power has been more and more centralised under the President.
The PA security apparatus is third of budget.
This PA suits international community and Israel.
It does nothing to further the cause of the Palestinians.
Palestinian authoritarianism has its roots in the Oslo Accords
The Palestinian Authority was never meant to engage in democratic governance and defend the Palestinians’ interests.
The idea that evil Hamas could be replaced by the nice liberal PA run by Fatah and Abbas would be an improvement for Palestinians is a fantasy.
Article says the peace process has led to a PA that's not democratic, does not stick up for Palestinians and worse cooperates with Israel on "security" matters.
Under Abbas power has been more and more centralised under the President.
The PA security apparatus is third of budget.
This PA suits international community and Israel.
It does nothing to further the cause of the Palestinians.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
With everyone on about international law perhaps the zionists might announce their intention to abide by security Council resolution 242 and make preparations to withdraw settlers, police, and armed forces accordingly
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
Perhaps the structure for any Palestinian state is a matter for the PalestiniansRead this scathing article on Mahmoud Abbas and the PA.
Palestinian authoritarianism has its roots in the Oslo Accords
The Palestinian Authority was never meant to engage in democratic governance and defend the Palestinians’ interests.
The idea that evil Hamas could be replaced by the nice liberal PA run by Fatah and Abbas would be an improvement for Palestinians is a fantasy.
Article says the peace process has led to a PA that's not democratic, does not stick up for Palestinians and worse cooperates with Israel on "security" matters.
Under Abbas power has been more and more centralised under the President.
The PA security apparatus is third of budget.
This PA suits international community and Israel.
It does nothing to further the cause of the Palestinians.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
It's not surprising that that kind of regime has emerged given the conditions under which it was formed. The Palestinian 'state' is not sovereign and never has been. In such circumstances, corruption is pretty much inevitable. That's what made Hamas attractive in the first place, of course.Read this scathing article on Mahmoud Abbas and the PA.
Palestinian authoritarianism has its roots in the Oslo Accords
The Palestinian Authority was never meant to engage in democratic governance and defend the Palestinians’ interests.
The idea that evil Hamas could be replaced by the nice liberal PA run by Fatah and Abbas would be an improvement for Palestinians is a fantasy.
Article says the peace process has led to a PA that's not democratic, does not stick up for Palestinians and worse cooperates with Israel on "security" matters.
Under Abbas power has been more and more centralised under the President.
The PA security apparatus is third of budget.
This PA suits international community and Israel.
It does nothing to further the cause of the Palestinians.
Gramsci
Well-Known Member
I was being serious in my three suggestions of things Israel could do in response.
The three things aren't threatening Israel state. They are stopping doing things that Israel state has repeatedly been told are against international law.
It's things like this that have fed into the conflict.
Gramsci
Well-Known Member
I'm rather afraid the Palestinians aren't going to be asked any time soon.
The article also says that the large security apparatus the PA has developed over the years under Abbas is also to stop any grass roots Palestinian action. Such as first Intifada. Which was genuinely grass roots.
Sasaferrato
Super Refuser!
I think we are all in agreement on that.
That does not however answer the question which I asked.
Once again, I ask what you think Israel should have done in response to the current situation.
Everyone is very vocal about what Israel shouldn't have done (Current Situation), no one seems to have any suggestions as to how they should have responded to their citizens being killed and abducted.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
We have replied. You're just not listening. Don't bomb Gaza. Don't kill Palestinians out of revenge. There you go. Start from there.
But you're in that parallel universe where Israel is a reasonable actor in all this, entitled to defend itself. That's not the Israel of this universe. The Israel of this universe is run by people who are itching to enact a genocide against a population they have herded into a concentration camp.
So how about you start from here, this situation in this universe.
Gramsci
Well-Known Member
You just don't get it.
Your assuming a response that goes on the offensive in some way.
Hamas attack was repelled. Israel, if those who lead it get there act together, has all the resources to defend itself.
There was a failure at high levels to ensure border was defended properly. They have the resources.
Israel is not under an existential threat
My three suggestions appear counter intuitive. They are about de escalating a conflict for the benefit of Israel.
This of course appears ludicrous. Of course Israel should go on attack.
Is this making Israel safer in long term?
From a purely self interested angle stopping settlement building/ stopping settler attacks and lifting blockade of Gaza is more likely to reduce likely future attacks on Israel.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
I increasingly think that Israel has shit the bed over this. It won't achieve an ethnic cleansing of Gaza and what eventually emerges will be a peace process in which Israel holds far fewer cards than it held back in the 1990s.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
no one's saying they're a reasonable government. as lbj pointed out, it is a state or authority that has developed under peculiar conditions. the palestinian authority has hardly benefited from being sidelined as much as possible by the zionists in favour of er hamas. but i daresay that in the event of a genuine two-state set-up being er set up that the current incumbents in the pa would be given the bum's rush
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
far fewer cards but rather more guns
teqniq
DisMembered
Israel extends detention of Shifa director for 45 days
'pending investigations' Into what, pray tell? How he managed to oversee the running of a hospital in truly appalling conditions perchance?
'pending investigations' Into what, pray tell? How he managed to oversee the running of a hospital in truly appalling conditions perchance?
No doubt by day forty five he will make a fulsome "confession"
Just on the problematic (to put it mildly) social media rumours about organ harvesting and similar.
The human rights of the Israel-Palestine conflict in broad terms are not ignored or unreported on. If really outrageous shit like that was happening and there was credible evidence for it then Amnesty International and B'Tselem etc. would be all over it. If something appears as a rumour on social media and it only exists on social media or blogs by people of no particular credibility then that's a big red flag. There are several big human rights reports on previous incursions into Gaza, there is a lot of excellent reporting (eg. Al Jazeera English) about what is happening now, there's a lot of really terrible things happening that we know about. There is a lot of international focus on Israel (and boy do they hate it!). Credible information is voluminous already, we don't need social media rumours.
If I remember rightly, the organ harvesting was a story in a (Swedish?) newspaper about a decade ago so there was perhaps a reasonably credible source for it once, but it's been long debunked or at least shown to have no basis. If this is the first time you've heard about it and you repeat it, then you're not an anti-semite but you have screwed up. It is entirely fair to say that those who are very insistent on this theory are doing so for dubious conspiracy theory (and almost surely anti-semitic) reasons.
Bodies being kept on ice and not being released is a new one on me, but again this is absolutely the sort of thing human rights groups would be onto if it were happening. It would clearly not be something that could be happening in secret.
These are also weird claims. Designed to make you think Israelis are up to something particularly godless, messing with the dead. As an atheist, I don't like using that term but I do think that's what those spreading the rumours are going for.
It is important to be aware of this sort of thing. There really are anti-semites who attach themselves to the Palestinian cause. I think they are more marginal than is often thought, but they are certainly out there and should be countered. It is a duty for all of us to be aware. There are anti-semitic theories that aren't anti-semitic in a technical clear cut way and appear as criticism of Israel. The organ harvesting one is a big one. The theory that Israel was funding/backing ISIS is/was another.
I don't want the above to be a lecture at Aladdin. Everybody screws up now and then. There's a broader point to make.
The human rights of the Israel-Palestine conflict in broad terms are not ignored or unreported on. If really outrageous shit like that was happening and there was credible evidence for it then Amnesty International and B'Tselem etc. would be all over it. If something appears as a rumour on social media and it only exists on social media or blogs by people of no particular credibility then that's a big red flag. There are several big human rights reports on previous incursions into Gaza, there is a lot of excellent reporting (eg. Al Jazeera English) about what is happening now, there's a lot of really terrible things happening that we know about. There is a lot of international focus on Israel (and boy do they hate it!). Credible information is voluminous already, we don't need social media rumours.
If I remember rightly, the organ harvesting was a story in a (Swedish?) newspaper about a decade ago so there was perhaps a reasonably credible source for it once, but it's been long debunked or at least shown to have no basis. If this is the first time you've heard about it and you repeat it, then you're not an anti-semite but you have screwed up. It is entirely fair to say that those who are very insistent on this theory are doing so for dubious conspiracy theory (and almost surely anti-semitic) reasons.
Bodies being kept on ice and not being released is a new one on me, but again this is absolutely the sort of thing human rights groups would be onto if it were happening. It would clearly not be something that could be happening in secret.
These are also weird claims. Designed to make you think Israelis are up to something particularly godless, messing with the dead. As an atheist, I don't like using that term but I do think that's what those spreading the rumours are going for.
It is important to be aware of this sort of thing. There really are anti-semites who attach themselves to the Palestinian cause. I think they are more marginal than is often thought, but they are certainly out there and should be countered. It is a duty for all of us to be aware. There are anti-semitic theories that aren't anti-semitic in a technical clear cut way and appear as criticism of Israel. The organ harvesting one is a big one. The theory that Israel was funding/backing ISIS is/was another.
I don't want the above to be a lecture at Aladdin. Everybody screws up now and then. There's a broader point to make.
Aladdin
Well-Known Member
Yet you draw me back into it ..and repeat what others have already written..just for?????
My last post on this thread was clear. Or so I thought. But maybe you didnt read it or maybe you ignored it because you had a post ready
Hamas/Israel conflict: news and discussion
I think you might need to look back and read the last 3 pages. I definitely felt I was being called out as antisemitic by someone. I wasn't accusing you of being antisemitic and I don't think you are an antisemite. However, I was criticising you for repeating unverified claims that you have...
www.urban75.net
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