Hamas/Israel conflict: news and discussion

[TopCat]

Who here wouldn't support calls for an immediate ceasefire? We're in the extraordinary position where such people would be lining up alongside the likes of Sunak, Starmer, the Archbishop of Canterbury, Ursula Von der Leyen. But what decent person would not call for a ceasefire?

Kid eternity wouldn’t. Spymaster wouldn’t. There are a few others.

 

[Gramsci]

Immediate ceasefire with a view to what?
Have Hamas made noises about releasing hostages?

So collective punishment of civilians in Gaza until Hamas hand over hostages

Well that's one way of doing things.

So far last time I looked 3000 dead.

 

[8ball]

With a view to not killing more people.

I was thinking in terms of things that are actually possible.

 

[8ball]

So collective punishment of civilians in Gaza until Hamas hand over hostages

Well that's one way of doing things.

So far last time I looked 3000 dead.

Hamas have no agency, but Israel does.
Interesting analysis.

 

[AnnO'Neemus]

Both sides are guilty of indiscriminately targeting civilians but if what we're hearing is true, only one has deliberately and specifically slaughtered babies.

One side doesn't give a fuck about killing babies, the other kills them on purpose. That is a difference in intent.

"Intent." Hmmm... if you shoot at fish in a barrel and you kill lots of fish, can you really claim that you were just shooting at the barrel, you couldn't foresee that you would kill lots of fish and didn't intend to kill them?

Gaza is the biggest open prison on the planet. Its borders are closed. People are trapped. It's disingenuous to say that the Israeli armed forces didn't intend to kill children. I mean, it's not like they haven't got previous as well.

 

[Gramsci]

Hamas have no agency, but Israel does.
Interesting analysis.

So collective punishment of civilians as military tactic is fine by you?

 

[8ball]

So collective punishment of civilians as military tactic is fine by you?

If you read really carefully, you may be able to spot where I didn’t say that.

 

[The39thStep]

Who here wouldn't support calls for an immediate ceasefire? We're in the extraordinary position where such people would be lining up alongside the likes of Sunak, Starmer, the Archbishop of Canterbury, Ursula Von der Leyen. But what decent person would not call for a ceasefire?

OSINT groupies

 

[emanymton]

If you read really carefully, you may be able to spot where I didn’t say that.

A ceasefire is not an end to collective punishment anyway. Not when water, power and aid is still restricted.

 

[CNT36]

Immediate ceasefire with a view to what?
Have Hamas made noises about releasing hostages?

I'd fancy the hostages' chances more if there were a ceasefire.

 

[kebabking]

If you read really carefully, you may be able to spot where I didn’t say that.

Read?

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I was thinking in terms of things that are actually possible.

Many issues here are incredibly fraught and complex. But this one isn't. So calling for a ceasefire means both sides, of course - IDF and Hamas. But in case you hadn't noticed, since the initial Hamas attack, nearly all the deaths have come on one side. If the IDF were to stop bombing Gaza, they would kill far fewer people.

Nobody on any side, even the Israeli side, has actually explained how bombing Gaza defends Israel. To admit the real motivation - to cause the civilian population to cower in fear - is a bit too war-crimey.

 

[emanymton]

"Intent." Hmmm... if you shoot at fish in a barrel and you kill lots of fish, can you really claim that you were just shooting at the barrel, you couldn't foresee that you would kill lots of fish and didn't intend to kill them?

Gaza is the biggest open prison on the planet. Its borders are closed. People are trapped. It's disingenuous to say that the Israeli armed forces didn't intend to kill children. I mean, it's not like they haven't got previous as well.

I don't know, there is a difference between actively taking aim at a child (and we now some in the IDF have done just that in the past) and not worrying that a child might get killed.

The difference might not seem much to me or you, but for some people is seems to be a huge psychological step.

 

[emanymton]

I'm sure I should know this. But is Hamas calling for a ceasefire?

 

[8ball]

I'd fancy the hostages' chances more if there were a ceasefire.

Yes, it’s unclear to what degree this particular batch of hostages factors into decisions.

At least one train of Israeli thought seems
to be that the chance of future hostage-taking is curtailed if Hamas is wiped off the face of the earth.

I’m not personally convinced the logic is watertight.

My point about the ceasefire is that when you have shooting going on, then shooting continues until something changes. I don’t see what the incentive for the Israelis is.

 

[Gramsci]

If you read really carefully, you may be able to spot where I didn’t say that.

Ok. Lets start again. Do you support an immediate ceasefire.

 

[CNT36]

Yes, it’s unclear to what degree this particular batch of hostages factors into decisions.

At least one train of Israeli thought seems
to be that the chance of future hostage-taking is curtailed if Hamas is wiped off the face of the earth.

I’m not personally convinced the logic is watertight.

My point about the ceasefire is that when you have shooting going on, then shooting continues until something changes. I don’t see what the incentive for the Israelis is.

I've heard the usual bollocks about "credibility" though phrased differently. Like I said previously it seems the hostages seem less important than looking tough in front of Iran (and others).

 

[8ball]

Ok. Lets start again. Do you support an immediate ceasefire.

I’d like people to stop shooting. I don’t see why the Israeli Government would stop shooting right now.

 

[Gramsci]

I’d like people to stop shooting. I don’t see why the Israeli Government would stop shooting right now.

I'm asking you yes or no question.

Do you support calls for an immediate ceasefire.

Yes or No

 

[8ball]

I'm asking you yes or no question.

Do you support calls for an immediate ceasefire.

Yes or No

Yeah, call for ceasefire if you want. Whatever.

 

[strung out]

Latest AJ analysis claims no evidence it was from a malfunctioning rocket

The problem with that analysis is that those aren't Iron Dome interceptions. The Iron Dome intercepts rockets while they're over Israeli cities, not when they're over Gaza.

It also seems implausible that the rocket detonating over Gaza would be followed five seconds later by an explosion from an entirely unrelated strike, rather than say, the unburned fuel from the misfiring rocket that failed almost directly above the hospital.

 

[Gramsci]

Yeah, call for ceasefire if you want. Whatever.

You have a go at me for not reading your posts properly.

When I put it to you in in yes or no you don't give a clear answer.

I'm asking what you think. Not what I want

 

[Kid_Eternity]

You're right, Husam Zomlot was given a lot of time and was not put through the same loaded series of questions I've seen from the BBC. For that reason, its a very good listen. Yet, the discussion seemed to loop around several times with the hosts trying to draw parallels between violence by both sides. Husam responded to this really well, but even on the outro it was clear they had not accepted this as a premise.

As someone who regularly listens to TRIP both of them are visiting events in Israel through the prism of the Good Friday agreement. Which I think has some merits in this circumstance, but a key difference is the role American support plays in this conflict.

I see what you mean, I’d suggest the key difference is the wider impact of not getting a settlement. America’s role could be considered analogous to Britains in relation to NI?

 

[Pickman's model]

I see what you mean, I’d suggest the key difference is the wider impact of not getting a settlement. America’s role could be considered analogous to Britains in relation to NI?

Not if you have even the slenderest knowledge of Irish history and middle eastern history but if you know nothing of it then still no

 

[SpookyFrank]

Hamas have no agency, but Israel does.
Interesting analysis.

If everyone in a given territory is responsible for the crimes of those who claim to rule it, it would follow that Hamas' original attacks on Israel were entirely legitimate. They weren't.

 

[TopCat]

Yeah, call for ceasefire if you want. Whatever.

Do you want a ceasefire?

 

[SpookyFrank]

A ceasefire is not an end to collective punishment anyway. Not when water, power and aid is still restricted.

It'd be, at best, a return to the everyday background level collective punishment that is the norm in occupied Palestine.

 

[platinumsage]

The problem with that analysis is that those aren't Iron Dome interceptions. The Iron Dome intercepts rockets while they're over Israeli cities, not when they're over Gaza.

Yes, it also seems as if Israel have been rationing Iron Dome interceptions to those rockets projected to actually hit occupied buildings in Israel, as they have limited stocks and they cost $20,000 each, whereas the low-tech rockets are ten a penny (although it seems Hamas have also been rationing them with a long conflict in mind).

 

[andysays]

You have a go at me for not reading your posts properly.

When I put it to you in in yes or no you don't give a clear answer.

I'm asking what you think. Not what I want

I'll answer your question, which is that I am in favour of an immediate ceasefire.

But let me ask you one in return - do you really think that what any of us posting here say about a ceasefire makes one iota of difference?

Because the unfortunate reality is that Israel, for a whole host of reasons including the support they're getting from many/most world leaders etc, aren't going to call a ceasefire or anything approaching one for the foreseeable future.

 

[Kid_Eternity]

Sadly this thread has mostly become an echo chamber for the worst of Urban's non-critical thinkers. It's almost a mirror of the Daily Mail universe.

The U75 boards are interesting, but there is a propensity to this kind of uncritical posturing, normally it is held in balance, and is quite refreshing; but I think the true horror of what happened during the Hamas attacks on Israel and the decades long ongoing tragedy of Gaza and the recent Israeli actions mean that most of the 'grown-ups' on the boards (and that is people with a range of opinions across the issue, most of whom I don't agree with ) have basically given up on this thread over the last few days as it leaves a particularly bad taste in the mouth to engage in the style of debate normal on Urban in the face of such death and human suffering on an immense scale.

Wel said.