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Hamas/Israel conflict: news and discussion

He's going there to stand behind a lectern and make a typically rubbish sound bite.

He may well be going there to do that, but I thought the language used (and the language used all day, if I am being honest) has been different to that coming out of the US and Israel about what happened at that hospital.

I know the CofE hasn't been an important part of the British establishment for some time, but Anglicans do run that place and so if anyone was going to have an independent line into what actually happened it would be them.
 
He may well be going there to do that, but I thought the language used (and the language used all day, if I am being honest) has been different to that coming out of the US and Israel about what happened at that hospital.

I know the CofE hasn't been an important part of the British establishment for some time, but Anglicans do run that place and so if anyone was going to have an independent line into what actually happened it would be them.
I think HMG is wary of just going along with what Israel says because this could look bad at a later date. So yes, there is a difference. But I think that difference is related to the fact that no-one cares much what the UK position is.

Which is what I mean about the visit being about a soundbite. He's not going there to make any diplomatic contribution, but to produce something that will be briefly shown on the 10 o'clock news.
 
I think HMG is wary of just going along with what Israel says because this could look bad at a later date. So yes, there is a difference. But I think that difference is related to the fact that no-one cares much what the UK position is.

Which is what I mean about the visit being about a soundbite. He's not going there to make any diplomatic contribution, but to produce something that will be briefly shown on the 10 o'clock news.

It might be, but what Sunak said is very similar to what the Archbishop of Canterbury said earlier:

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Why the fuck is Justin fucking Welby being quoted to on here and yet people get reported for linking to stories in the Mail. He's a religious nutter in a silly hat. And his press team also don't seem to know how to turn hyphenation off which is arguably even worse.
 
Why the fuck is Justin fucking Welby being quoted to on here and yet people get reported for linking to stories in the Mail. He's a religious nutter in a silly hat. And his press team also don't seem to know how to turn hyphenation off which is arguably even worse.
Like it or not in your apparently frothing apoplexy he made a reasonable comment. All your sky fairy jebus jarg doesn't really cut it.
 
In the tonight Peston programme on the ITV, he asked a forthright question about the inevitable impacts of the invasion of the Gaza by Israel, and he got an explicit answer.
 
From Channel4 earlier, taking apart Netanyahu's disinformation on the hospital attack and previous history of Israeli disinformation after killing journalists.

 
The footage is pretty definitive and has been verified by the guardian. the rocket comes from the ground behind the hospital from what i can see.


A video, broadcast by Al Jazeera and verified by the Guardian, appears to show an airborne weapon following a rising trajectory over Gaza and bursting into flames in mid air. Moments later an explosion is seen at the hospital.
 
The footage is pretty definitive and has been verified by the guardian. the rocket comes from the ground behind the hospital from what i can see.

This looks sus to me. The footage supposedly comes from a Palestinian journalist's Twitter live feed. But it wouldn't be practically possible to verify something that streamed in the past...

...or maybe it would, but I'm sceptical.
 
No call for a ceasefire. How hard is it to call for a ceasefire? Those are weasel words, I'm afraid. No direct criticism of Israel's actions, only those of Hamas.

Welby does say its indefensible that hospitals etc are being struck. But the tone is different. Hamas are heinous and evil. Whilst saying its indefensible to that hospitals, schools and refugee camps are being struck he cant bring himself to write its indefensible that Israel state bombs these. Nor can he use the words collective punishment is not in the rules of war.

Isreal he says has a right and duty to defend itself within the rules of war .But does not say that in what he calls this cycle of violence the Palestinians have a right to resist occupation.

As you say he could support an immediate ceasefire.

And this cycle of violence stuff. The violence has been going on since 48. As a Palestinian academic on Al Jazeera said last night. Listening to her frustration I can understand. Its like Palestinians have to give a history lesson to western audiences about this every time.
 
This looks sus to me. The footage supposedly comes from a Palestinian journalist's Twitter live feed. But it wouldn't be practically possible to verify something that streamed in the past...

...or maybe it would, but I'm sceptical.

No it's not sus, the AJ live feed correlates with other video of the incident taken from different locations. Anyone who thinks it's all fake must be a conspiraloon.
 
The world's favourite covid journo at the FT explains why he thinks the mainstream media have been so bad at this:



Unrolled:

 
I was listening to member of Jewish Voice for Peace on Al Jazeera last night. Phyliss Bennis.

Looked up Jewish Voice for Peace. Its a USA based Jewish Anti Zionist network.

Here is sample of what they say.

I think they see One State as end goal. Sound like a good organisation.

“What must emerge from ongoing turmoil in Israel and Gaza is ‘a commitment to a future of peace,’ said Stefanie Fox, executive director of Jewish Voice for Peace, a grassroots progressive Jewish anti-Zionist organization.

‘The pain and trauma of this moment is so raw and real for all sides, and we believe that what must emerge from this horrifying time is a commitment to a future of peace that’s rooted in justice and freedom and equality for all people,’ Fox said.

But that cannot happen, Fox said, without acknowledging what she said is the root cause of the violence: ’75 years of Israeli dispossession and discrimination and state violence on Palestinians.’

‘Reality is shaped by when you start the clock, you know, and while the Israeli government may have just declared war, its war on Palestinians started over 75 years ago,’ Fox said.

Jewish Voice for Peace is hopeful for a better future in the region.

‘We believe in a future of a just peace that’s rooted in equality and dignity and freedom, where there is a society rooted in belonging not domination, in equality, rather than discrimination, in a shared actual multiracial democracy instead of apartheid and occupation,’ Fox said. ‘And we believe that that is possible if we are very focused in this moment.'”
 
Article by Phyliss Bennis who is member of Jewish Voice for Peace





We need an immediate ceasefire right now. And we need to hold our own government accountable — which includes stopping Washington’s enabling of Israel’s oppression of Palestinians.

Palestinians have been paying the price for this apartheid system for generations. In the recent attacks, innocent Israelis paid a huge price as well. It’s time to end it, starting with a ceasefire — right now.
 
The impact that this will have on the outcome of the next GE is zero or so close to zero as to make no difference. The fact that this is dominating the current news cycle has pushed all the issues why people might vote Labour at the next Election such as the cost of living, high mortgage/rents, the failure of Brexit not to the mention the sheer incompetence of the current administration off the news but those issues haven't gone away. I'm willing to bet that the cancellation of HS2 will change more votes than disagreement with Starmer's stance on Palestine.
This belongs in another thread really, but replying to this now as I missed it when you posted.

You are wrong, because it isn't just about how it effects people's votes, but it is inherently destabilising to the Labour Party because Corbyn and his supporters were railroaded based on the idea that any criticism of Israel is anti-semitic. Israel conducting ethnic cleansing against Gaza - which they are, it seems almost certain they will annex North Gaza having already violently driven a million people from their homes - will be seem as vindicating Corbyn in speaking up for Palestine, and potentially reignite Labour's civil war. The resignations of councillors is likely only the beginning of it.


I know in my local area, popular North of Tyne mayor Jamie Driscoll was denied standing for re-election due to extremely tenuous accusations of anti-semitism - basically he shared a stage with Ken Loach and talked about movies instead of berating him for "anti-semitism" because he refused to disown all Labour members expelled from the Party based on anti-semitism. So opponents of Starmer were expelled for anti-semitism on spurious grounds for supporting Palestine. Ken Loach said it was a politically motivated purge so therefore he is anti-semitic and was expelled. Jamie Driscoll talked to Ken Loach about movies instead of berating him for being anti-semitic so therefore he is himself anti-semitic and was denied running for re-election despite local popularity and success.

Driscoll will be standing as an independent and taking most of the local Labour Party campaigners with him. This gives more energy to his campaign. And this is just one local area, I believe there are similar fissures and tensions in local Labour Parties around the country and this moves these tensions significantly closer to boiling point. As discussed on the Keir Starmer thread, there is also an attempt to unseat Starmer with an independent continuity Corbyn candidate in a constituency which is 30% Muslim and also with a high student population. I'm sure there are other manifestations of this tension around the country.

I will copy this post to the Starmer thread so you can reply there without derailing this one.
 
So, I thought it was interesting because the guest was given a great deal of time (which is royally took advantage of!) to actually articulate a thought. It gives a decent insight into the nuances of Palestinian politics, and how the PLO think of the people and groups like Hamas. It was also quite nice to see him talking with so much warmth about his love of his people and his upbringing despite the horrors they've experienced.
You're right, Husam Zomlot was given a lot of time and was not put through the same loaded series of questions I've seen from the BBC. For that reason, its a very good listen. Yet, the discussion seemed to loop around several times with the hosts trying to draw parallels between violence by both sides. Husam responded to this really well, but even on the outro it was clear they had not accepted this as a premise.

As someone who regularly listens to TRIP both of them are visiting events in Israel through the prism of the Good Friday agreement. Which I think has some merits in this circumstance, but a key difference is the role American support plays in this conflict.
 
This belongs in another thread really, but replying to this now as I missed it when you posted.

You are wrong, because it isn't just about how it effects people's votes, but it is inherently destabilising to the Labour Party because Corbyn and his supporters were railroaded based on the idea that any criticism of Israel is anti-semitic. Israel conducting ethnic cleansing against Gaza - which they are, it seems almost certain they will annex North Gaza having already violently driven a million people from their homes - will be seem as vindicating Corbyn in speaking up for Palestine, and potentially reignite Labour's civil war. The resignations of councillors is likely only the beginning of it.


I know in my local area, popular North of Tyne mayor Jamie Driscoll was denied standing for re-election due to extremely tenuous accusations of anti-semitism - basically he shared a stage with Ken Loach and talked about movies instead of berating him for "anti-semitism" because he refused to disown all Labour members expelled from the Party based on anti-semitism. So opponents of Starmer were expelled for anti-semitism on spurious grounds for supporting Palestine. Ken Loach said it was a politically motivated purge so therefore he is anti-semitic and was expelled. Jamie Driscoll talked to Ken Loach about movies instead of berating him for being anti-semitic so therefore he is himself anti-semitic and was denied running for re-election despite local popularity and success.

Driscoll will be standing as an independent and taking most of the local Labour Party campaigners with him. This gives more energy to his campaign. And this is just one local area, I believe there are similar fissures and tensions in local Labour Parties around the country and this moves these tensions significantly closer to boiling point. As discussed on the Keir Starmer thread, there is also an attempt to unseat Starmer with an independent continuity Corbyn candidate in a constituency which is 30% Muslim and also with a high student population. I'm sure there are other manifestations of this tension around the country.

I will copy this post to the Starmer thread so you can reply there without derailing this one.

Agree with this. I think a post like this is applicable to this thread. The way the conflict is seen and the arguments over it in this country contribute to how government react. War isn't just about missiles. It's also in broad terms the propaganda war. It's not all about high diplomacy.

As seen at last demo this country has a significant population who have a middle east background. Who at this time are not getting representation.

Listening to Novara media and BBC recently have had to retract comments from it's presenters that last Saturday demo was supporting Hamas.

In hindsight a lot of the rooting out anti semitism was about leading to climate where criticism of Israeli state or Zionism as a political project is out of bounds. Or saying Israel is an Apartheid state


Otherwise this thread will just end up being interminable posts of whether for example Israel bombed a hospital. Or it was Hamas/ Islamic Jihad.
 
Aside from anything else, that's a weird statement to give about any army.

Again, aside from the obvious, how exactly are they measuring that...?
“Last year, 2022, was the deadliest year for Palestinian children in the West Bank in 15 years, and 2023 is on track to meet or exceed 2022 levels. Israeli forces had killed at least 34 Palestinian children in the West Bank as of August 22. Human Rights Watch investigated four fatal shootings of Palestinian children by Israeli forces between November 2022 and March 2023.”

 
There was a spokesperson for Israel on Sky earlier who said they have the most moral army in the world, and she managed to actually keep a straight face, deserves a fucking Oscar.

I really thought they had given up on that one or similar. Maybe an indication that they are winding it back a bit.
 
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