Hamas/Israel conflict: news and discussion

[tim]

There is another country those with dual citizenship or who have just been visiting relatives could leave through if that country allowed it.

The Egyptian regime is as brutal as the Israeli one, so don't have high expectations. And anyway, a magic passport shouldn't be able to grant you basic human rights denied to others.

 

[pbsmooth]

Some interesting recent polls from YouGov

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Sympathies for the Israelis Palestinian conflict

Thinking only of the continuing conflict between Israel and the Palestinians, do your own sympathies lie more with the Israelis or more with the Palestinians?

yougov.co.uk

for once I largely agree with the great British public - it's a mess of a situation and trying to sum it up and 'take a side' is nigh-on impossible. maybe there should have been more 'don't knows'.

 

[MickiQ]

Obviously not but I've not heard the possibility mentioned while Egypt has rightly been criticised for it.

For all we know (and willing to be corrected) Israel might very well be freely letting non-Palestinians out. However I have to confess that even if I was a blue-eyed Nordic blonde I would be very reluctant to approach either of the Israeli checkpoints waving my passport over my head and shouting "Am Swedish Yar!"

 

[editor]

for once I largely agree with the great British public - it's a mess of a situation and trying to sum it up and 'take a side' is nigh-on impossible. maybe there should have been more 'don't knows'.

I'd imagine they'd see some substantial changes if they conducted those polls today.

 

[Johnny Vodka]

Labour Friends of Israel are encouraging people to send the following email to their local MPs.
"Dear

I am writing to you as my local constituency MP.

I am horrified by the news of Hamas and Palestinian Islamic Jihad terrorists entering Israel en-masse to murder civilians in cold blood as they went to celebrate a Jewish festival, take soldiers hostage, and firing thousands of rockets into population centres. The images of innocent people being targeted in cold blood are the stuff of nightmares, and my thoughts are with the Israeli victims and their families.

Will you join me in expressing your full solidarity with Israel as it struggles to bring this unprecedented security situation under control, and in affirming Israel’s right to defend itself?

Yours sincerely,"

Medical Aid for Palestinians also have a template you can fill out and e-mail to your MP. I did that one.

 

[pbsmooth]

for once I largely agree with the great British public - it's a mess of a situation and trying to sum it up and 'take a side' is nigh-on impossible. maybe there should have been more 'don't knows'.

oh, I thought it was more recent. do you? I'd imagine it would still be a similar-ish split. Hamas is not Palestinians, and Israel gov is not all Israelis, after all.

 

[Johnny Vodka]

for once I largely agree with the great British public - it's a mess of a situation and trying to sum it up and 'take a side' is nigh-on impossible. maybe there should have been more 'don't knows'.

I know a hell of a lot people who wear "I don't watch the news" like a badge of pride. For me, I don't find it that hard to sympathise with one side more than the other, much as I dislike to, and that's based on long-term casualty numbers.

 

[PTK]

Medical Aid for Palestinians also have a template you can fill out and e-mail to your MP. I did that one.

I posted the one from War on Want earlier.
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It dismays me that people in the Labour Party can send out such stuff. It's not very "moderate" or "centrist" to be so uncritical of the State of Israel.

 

[agricola]

Oh, if they've deleted the tweet, I'm sure all the humanitarian aid has reappeared then (not a dig at you).

Original tweet below

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It should perhaps be pointed out that UNRWA also said this (from here):

It said UNRWA staff were compelled to evacuate its headquarters in Gaza City on a few hour's notice during the night of October 13. Since then, UNRWA has had no access to the compound and no additional details about the removal of the assets.

“Security cameras that cover the entrance/exit to the @UNRWA compound were damaged further to blasts from the conflict in previous days & ceased to operate,” the agency said, adding that UNRWA “fuel and other types of material are kept for strictly humanitarian purposes - any other use is strongly condemned.”

So it could well be that it was pinched by Hamas, but there is also a strong possibility it was people actually from the Health Ministry taking things that are in absolutely urgent need for the hospitals in the area.

 

[pbsmooth]

I know a hell of a lot people who wear "I don't watch the news" like a badge of pride. For me, I don't find it that hard to sympathise with one side more than the other, much as I dislike to, and that's based on long-term casualty numbers.

but how long-term are we talking? etc etc.

 

[planetgeli]

I posted the one from War on Want earlier.
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It dismays me that people in the Labour Party can send out such stuff. It's not very "moderate" or "centrist" to be so uncritical of the State of Israel.

Nothing in the Labour Party dismays me anymore.

And it's just another illustration of the massive rightward shift in mainstream politics in this country in the last 2 or 3 decades.

I think it's also a blowover from the anti-semitism within (the Labour Party) issue, where any criticism is immediately searched for anti-semitism. Even the straightforward journalistic line of asking for confirming evidence (as CNN did about the beheaded babies) had me being criticized by someone on here for covering up my anti-semitism or something.

 

[phildwyer]

Some interesting recent polls from YouGov

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Sympathies for the Israelis Palestinian conflict

Thinking only of the continuing conflict between Israel and the Palestinians, do your own sympathies lie more with the Israelis or more with the Palestinians?

yougov.co.uk

The interesting thing is the disjunction between the views of the British people and the actions of the government that is supposed to represent them. Why is the UK government significantly more pro-Zionist than the people? That is one very interesting question.

 

[Mezzer]

I posted the one from War on Want earlier.
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It dismays me that people in the Labour Party can send out such stuff. It's not very "moderate" or "centrist" to be so uncritical of the State of Israel.

Also, where is the need to send such a message? There's been hardy any western governments critical of Israel and they've been given carte blanche to go ahead in this apparent genocide. It's not just that Israel doesn't seem interested in their international reputation, but they seem to be actively encouraged in this apartheid madness. It's extraordinary that the murder of over 1000 Israelis is being overshadowed by further appalling events that are undoubted war crimes.

 

[Pickman's model]

Fuck me, you really are this big an arsehole, aren't you?

You ain't seen nothin' yet

 

[Ax^]

The only anti-war voice in the American MSM is Tucker Carlson:

oh fuck off you gobshite Dwyer

 

[Kid_Eternity]

”We must never underestimate the burden of history that Jewish people carry with them.”

Keir Starmer

From Parliament.

 

[Ax^]

from Keith

 

[Kid_Eternity]

for once I largely agree with the great British public - it's a mess of a situation and trying to sum it up and 'take a side' is nigh-on impossible. maybe there should have been more 'don't knows'.

Polls reflect people’s understanding which in cases like this is largely mainstream media driven…

 

[Kid_Eternity]

from Keith

Who?

 

[Pickman's model]

Some interesting recent polls from YouGov

View attachment 395727
View attachment 395728
View attachment 395729
View attachment 395737

Sympathies for the Israelis Palestinian conflict

Thinking only of the continuing conflict between Israel and the Palestinians, do your own sympathies lie more with the Israelis or more with the Palestinians?

yougov.co.uk

And these were greeted with interest when Rimbaud posted this on Saturday Hamas/Israel conflict general thread

It would be really good if people made an effort to check their link hadn't already been shared

 

[Pickman's model]

Good to see some actual data at least to contrast with the wild speculation of what the British people think…

Right. Like editor you haven't been reading the thread either

 

[Johnny Vodka]

Also, where is the need to send such a message? There's been hardy any western governments critical of Israel and they've been given carte blanche to go ahead in this apparent genocide. It's not just that Israel doesn't seem interested in their international reputation, but they seem to be actively encouraged in this apartheid madness. It's extraordinary that the murder of over 1000 Israelis is being overshadowed by further appalling events that are undoubted war crimes.

Maybe in Scotland? I don't think the SNP have been so blatant in their support for Israel as compared to the UK government. Not sure about other regions of the UK either.

 

[Mezzer]

Maybe in Scotland? I don't think the SNP have been so blatant in their support for Israel as compared to the UK government.

Indeed. And 'hardly any' would allow that anomaly.

 

[phildwyer]

Polls reflect people’s understanding which in cases like this is largely mainstream media driven…

Aye. So the next question is: why is the MSM so much more pro-Zionist than its audience?

 

[donkyboy]

The only anti-war voice in the American MSM is Tucker Carlson:

what the hell. wasn't expecting this from Tucker.

 

[Johnny Vodka]

Aye. So the next question is: why is the MSM so much more pro-Zionist than its audience?

Use of the term "MSM" annoys me. Maybe it's a hangover from covid times, where we we encouraged to "do our own research" and listen to the guy broadcasting from his mum's basement.. The MSM covers a pretty wide spectrum. I would include Channel 4 News and The Guardian as MSM. Are they pro-Zionist? Is even the BBC pro-Zionist?

 

[phildwyer]

Tucker Carlson is a partisan shitbag, his sole interest in this is trying to find ways to blame it on Joe Biden and the Democratic Party. If Trump was in the WH he would be singing his praises about it.

Carlson's a more complex figure than you imagine. He's been consistently anti-Zionist, no matter who occupies the White House. And he often comes across as a radical Leftist these days. Can you imagine any other MSM figure broadcasting this:

 

[phildwyer]

what the hell. wasn't expecting this from Tucker.

Yes, he is clearly undergoing some form of weird mutation. In public.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Use of the term "MSM" annoys me. Maybe it's a hangover from covid times, where we we encouraged to "do our own research" and listen to the guy broadcasting from his mum's basement.. The MSM covers a pretty wide spectrum. I would include Channel 4 News and The Guardian as MSM. Are they pro-Zionist? Is even the BBC pro-Zionist?

The Guardian is pretty pro-Zionist, yes.

 

[phildwyer]

The MSM covers a pretty wide spectrum. I would include Channel 4 News and The Guardian as MSM. Are they pro-Zionist? Is even the BBC pro-Zionist?

Very much so, yes. Check out some media from the Muslim world to get any idea of exactly how much. Al-Jazeera is a good place to start.