Hamas/Israel conflict: news and discussion

[likesfish]

The immediate impulse for Hamas' invasion was the desire of some Israelis to rebuild their temple, which was destroyed two thousand years ago. The politics of the ancient world remain active in the Middle East today, difficult though that is for you to understand:

Over 800 Israeli settlers storm Al-Aqsa compound on Sukkot

Rabbis, heads of settlement associations and far-right university lecturers were among 832 people who stormed the Al-Aqsa Mosque compound on Thursday morning.

www.newarab.com

The al Asqua mosque is the 2nd holiest site in Islam because Mohamed apprantly landed a flying horse their one night or dreamed he did .

Religion completely rational and fact based.

 

[phildwyer]

The al Asqua mosque is the 2nd holiest site in Islam because Mohamed apprantly landed a flying horse their one night or dreamed he did .

Religion completely rational and fact based.

Third holiest. But that's still pretty holy. So 800 rabbis invading the place and performing Talmudic rituals complete with goat's horn did not go down too well.

 

[Kevbad the Bad]

12.22 BST

Putin and Assad call for end to forced displacement of Gaza residents – reports​

The Russian state-owned news agency Tass has posted to its Telegram channel to report that Vladimir Putin and Syria’s president, Bashar al-Assad,have spoken about the Israel-Hamas war on the phone. It writes:

Assad and Putin, in a telephone conversation, spoke in favour of the immediate delivery of aid to Gaza, the office of the Syrian leader reports. Assad and Putin also called for an end to the shelling of Gaza and the forced displacement of its residents.

It's good to see those two stalwart defenders of human rights standing up for the oppressed.

 

[Idris2002]

12.22 BST

Putin and Assad call for end to forced displacement of Gaza residents – reports​

The Russian state-owned news agency Tass has posted to its Telegram channel to report that Vladimir Putin and Syria’s president, Bashar al-Assad,have spoken about the Israel-Hamas war on the phone. It writes:


It's good to see those two stalwart defenders of human rights standing up for the oppressed.

"With friends like these"

 

[phildwyer]

The only anti-war voice in the American MSM is Tucker Carlson:

 

[hitmouse]

The immediate impulse for Hamas' invasion was the desire of some Israelis to rebuild their temple, which was destroyed two thousand years ago. The politics of the ancient world remain active in the Middle East today, difficult though that is for you to understand:

Over 800 Israeli settlers storm Al-Aqsa compound on Sukkot

Rabbis, heads of settlement associations and far-right university lecturers were among 832 people who stormed the Al-Aqsa Mosque compound on Thursday morning.

www.newarab.com

Oh great, I'd never heard of religion before today, so I'm really learning a lot from your posts.

Obviously many actors in Middle East politics make reference to ancient, medieval, etc events as part of the narrative they use to justify themselves. But if you actually want to understand the world and not just be constantly mugged off by every bridge salesman you meet, it's worth looking beyond the self-descriptions and actually trying to analyse the reality. Part of that process of analysis has to be distinguishing between the Israeli state, different forces within Israeli politics, Israeli citizens in general and some abstract category of "Jews". Of course it should go without saying that anyone trying to collapse Hamas, Palestinians, and "Muslims" together is equally repugnant, and tbf more likely to be in actual positions of power than some clown like Dwyer.

Trying to link "the Israelis" to crimes alleged to have been committed by Jews throughout history, as whylikethis did pretty explicitly and you seem to be endorsing, is the logic of those who would justify attacks on random Jews. I think you're probably intelligent enough to understand what you're doing, but it is possible you are actually as thick as you appear. A waste of pixels either way.

 

[Idris2002]

Oh great, I'd never heard of religion before today, so I'm really learning a lot from your posts.

Obviously many actors in Middle East politics make reference to ancient, medieval, etc events as part of the narrative they use to justify themselves. But if you actually want to understand the world and not just be constantly mugged off by every bridge salesman you meet, it's worth looking beyond the self-descriptions and actually trying to analyse the reality. Part of that process of analysis has to be distinguishing between the Israeli state, different forces within Israeli politics, Israeli citizens in general and some abstract category of "Jews". Of course it should go without saying that anyone trying to collapse Hamas, Palestinians, and "Muslims" together is equally repugnant, and tbf more likely to be in actual positions of power than some clown like Dwyer.

Trying to link "the Israelis" to crimes alleged to have been committed by Jews throughout history, as whylikethis did pretty explicitly and you seem to be endorsing, is the logic of those who would justify attacks on random Jews. I think you're probably intelligent enough to understand what you're doing, but it is possible you are actually as thick as you appear. A waste of pixels either way.

The mad settlers and the mad Neturei Karta types read the same holy book, but they draw very different conclusions from it.

 

[PTK]

"With friends like these"

"Hypocrisy is the homage vice pays to virtue."
- Francois de La Rochefoucauld

 

[phildwyer]

Oh great, I'd never heard of religion before today, so I'm really learning a lot from your posts.

Obviously many actors in Middle East politics make reference to ancient, medieval, etc events as part of the narrative they use to justify themselves. But if you actually want to understand the world and not just be constantly mugged off by every bridge salesman you meet, it's worth looking beyond the self-descriptions and actually trying to analyse the reality. Part of that process of analysis has to be distinguishing between the Israeli state, different forces within Israeli politics, Israeli citizens in general and some abstract category of "Jews". Of course it should go without saying that anyone trying to collapse Hamas, Palestinians, and "Muslims" together is equally repugnant, and tbf more likely to be in actual positions of power than some clown like Dwyer.

Trying to link "the Israelis" to crimes alleged to have been committed by Jews throughout history, as whylikethis did pretty explicitly and you seem to be endorsing, is the logic of those who would justify attacks on random Jews. I think you're probably intelligent enough to understand what you're doing, but it is possible you are actually as thick as you appear. A waste of pixels either way.

You won't understand Israel until you understand the continuity of Middle Eastern politics. The motive behind the current eruption of violence is the attempt by radical Israelis to reverse the conquest of Judea by Pompey Magnus. And that's a relatively recent grievance, that's positively postmodern by their standards.

 

[hitmouse]

I am so grateful for this lesson in Judaism, rebbe Dwyer.

 

[Idris2002]

You won't understand Israel until you understand the continuity of Middle Eastern politics. The motive behind the current eruption of violence is the attempt by radical Israelis to reverse the conquest of Judea by Pompey Magnus. And that's a relatively recent grievance, that's positively postmodern by their standards.

Fuck me, you really are this big an arsehole, aren't you?

 

[dilute micro]

The only anti-war voice in the American MSM is Tucker Carlson:

He's found a career niche in being a contrarian. Some are really going for it.

 

[Idris2002]

If Carlson Tucker (big Grateful Dead fan, apparenlty) is the voice of anti-war Amerikkka, we really are well and truly fucked.

Found this interesting site about mapping Palestinian politics:

Civil Society

Since 1948 Palestinian political agency has been expressed through grassroots organising predominantly in the refugee camps. Grassroots activism played the most significant role in the First intifada…

ecfr.eu

Looks like there are lots of voices we never hear, there.

 

[belboid]

If Carlson Tucker (big Grateful Dead fan, apparenlty) is the voice of anti-war Amerikkka, we really are well and truly fucked.

Found this interesting site about mapping Palestinian politics:

Civil Society

Since 1948 Palestinian political agency has been expressed through grassroots organising predominantly in the refugee camps. Grassroots activism played the most significant role in the First intifada…

ecfr.eu

Looks like there are lots of voices we never hear, there.

of course, Tucker Carson isn't the only voice of anti-war America. The growth of pro-Palestinian politics has been quite the surprise over there in recent years. From the DSA to Jewish Voice for Peace and even the Hadid's, it's not the same as thirty years ago. Tucker is the most prominent antisemitic war critic, which is why Dwyer prefers to promote him.

 

[strung out]

Humanitarian aid meant for Palestinians has been taken from the UN compound from where it was being distributed.

No idea who it could have been, but I'm sure it can't have been Hamas.

 

[Idris2002]

of course, Tucker Carson isn't the only voice of anti-war America. The growth of pro-Palestinian politics has been quite the surprise over there in recent years. From the DSA to Jewish Voice for Peace and even the Hadid's, it's not the same as thirty years ago. Tucker is the most prominent antisemitic war critic, which is why Dwyer prefers to promote him.

A new pro-Palestinian movement in the belly of the beast itself would be a good thing - if it could avoid the defects and deficiencies of other such movements ("I'm not antisemtic, I'm antizionist") that would be even better.

 

[Idris2002]

Humanitarian aid meant for Palestinians has been taken from the UN compound from where it was being distributed.

No idea who it could have been, but I'm sure it can't have been Hamas.

"Sorry that post has been deleted"

Hamas? Something else? Mafia? (If this even happened)

 

[8ball]

The al Asqua mosque is the 2nd holiest site in Islam because Mohamed apprantly landed a flying horse their one night…

I’m pretty sure the horse took off from there. You will burn in hell for your heresy.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

There are threads where it's right to mock the idiocy of religious dogmas. This probably isn't one of them.

 

[strung out]

"Sorry that post has been deleted"

Hamas? Something else? Mafia? (If this even happened)

Oh, if they've deleted the tweet, I'm sure all the humanitarian aid has reappeared then (not a dig at you).

Original tweet below

 

[MickiQ]

It was reported that the Egyptians are not going to allow foreign citizens to evacuate via the Rafah crossing until aid to the civilian population is allowed in.

How is this not massively immoral behaviour? these people are also victims of what is going on, they're presumably in Gaza because a) they were attached to some kind of Aid mission or b) visiting relatives. I'm guessing that the Gazan Tourist Board doesn't get many customers even at the best of times.
Egypt is not acting any differently from Hamas in that it is holding these people (I suspect many of them are actually Palestinians with dual citizenship) hostage to achieve an aim.
The principal reason Egypt wants to send aid in is to discourage Palestinians from trying to come out and clutter up Sinai or avoid the bad press of the sight of its troops shooting fleeing Palestinians to try and prevent them from breaching the wall.
It's unfair of course that some people in Gaza will be allowed to come out whilst many will be left there to die but how does abandoning these to die save any others?
Besides no aid is going into Gaza until Israel deems it to be in its strategic interest to do so unless a lot of those trapped are Israeli or American they aren't going to give that much of shit about it.

 

[editor]

Some interesting recent polls from YouGov

Sympathies for the Israelis Palestinian conflict

Thinking only of the continuing conflict between Israel and the Palestinians, do your own sympathies lie more with the Israelis or more with the Palestinians?

yougov.co.uk

 

[MickiQ]

The only anti-war voice in the American MSM is Tucker Carlson:

Tucker Carlson is a partisan shitbag, his sole interest in this is trying to find ways to blame it on Joe Biden and the Democratic Party. If Trump was in the WH he would be singing his praises about it.

 

[PTK]

How is this not massively immoral behaviour? these people are also victims of what is going on, they're presumably in Gaza because a) they were attached to some kind of Aid mission or b) visiting relatives. I'm guessing that the Gazan Tourist Board doesn't get many customers even at the best of times.
Egypt is not acting any differently from Hamas in that it is holding these people (I suspect many of them are actually Palestinians with dual citizenship) hostage to achieve an aim.
The principal reason Egypt wants to send aid in is to discourage Palestinians from trying to come out and clutter up Sinai or avoid the bad press of the sight of its troops shooting fleeing Palestinians to try and prevent them from breaching the wall.
It's unfair of course that some people in Gaza will be allowed to come out whilst many will be left there to die but how does abandoning these to die save any others?
Besides no aid is going into Gaza until Israel deems it to be in its strategic interest to do so unless a lot of those trapped are Israeli or American they aren't going to give that much of shit about it.

The way I see it is that foreign states may bring pressure on the State of Israel to allow in aid in return for their citizens being allowed out. If it therefore saves some lives, it could be justified. My instinct would be to allow out anyone who wants to leave.

 

[Kid_Eternity]

Some interesting recent polls from YouGov

View attachment 395727
View attachment 395728
View attachment 395729
View attachment 395737

Sympathies for the Israelis Palestinian conflict

Thinking only of the continuing conflict between Israel and the Palestinians, do your own sympathies lie more with the Israelis or more with the Palestinians?

yougov.co.uk

Good to see some actual data at least to contrast with the wild speculation of what the British people think…

 

[CNT36]

How is this not massively immoral behaviour? these people are also victims of what is going on, they're presumably in Gaza because a) they were attached to some kind of Aid mission or b) visiting relatives. I'm guessing that the Gazan Tourist Board doesn't get many customers even at the best of times.
Egypt is not acting any differently from Hamas in that it is holding these people (I suspect many of them are actually Palestinians with dual citizenship) hostage to achieve an aim.
The principal reason Egypt wants to send aid in is to discourage Palestinians from trying to come out and clutter up Sinai or avoid the bad press of the sight of its troops shooting fleeing Palestinians to try and prevent them from breaching the wall.
It's unfair of course that some people in Gaza will be allowed to come out whilst many will be left there to die but how does abandoning these to die save any others?
Besides no aid is going into Gaza until Israel deems it to be in its strategic interest to do so unless a lot of those trapped are Israeli or American they aren't going to give that much of shit about it

There is another country those with dual citizenship or who have just been visiting relatives could leave through if that country allowed it.

 

[MickiQ]

There is another country those with dual citizenship or who have just been visiting relatives could leave through if that country allowed it.

Yes there is but two wrongs don't make a right.

 

[tim]

Do you real expect a lower life form like Hodge to care about Palestinians?

I don't like Margaret Hodge but I don't like antiSemitic tropes either.

 

[CNT36]

Yes there is but two wrongs don't make a right.

Obviously not but I've not heard the possibility mentioned while Egypt has rightly been criticised for it.

 

[PTK]

Labour Friends of Israel are encouraging people to send the following email to their local MPs.
"Dear

I am writing to you as my local constituency MP.

I am horrified by the news of Hamas and Palestinian Islamic Jihad terrorists entering Israel en-masse to murder civilians in cold blood as they went to celebrate a Jewish festival, take soldiers hostage, and firing thousands of rockets into population centres. The images of innocent people being targeted in cold blood are the stuff of nightmares, and my thoughts are with the Israeli victims and their families.

Will you join me in expressing your full solidarity with Israel as it struggles to bring this unprecedented security situation under control, and in affirming Israel’s right to defend itself?

Yours sincerely,"