Hamas/Israel conflict: news and discussion

[PR1Berske]

Braverman on yesterday's demo, I think she might actually have lost it:

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Increasingly I see Suella as someone outside politics, outside government. She acts like the head of a private militia. It's chilling.

 

[Yossarian]

Israel has reportedly restored water to Gaza under pressure from the US - but only to the south. Not clear if the US even tried to have the water supply restored to the entire territory - or if it tried to stop the order to evacuate the north

https://www.axios.com/2023/10/15/israel-resumes-water-supply-to-southern-gaza-after-us-pressure

 

[Johnny Vodka]

Hamas did start this by slaughtering a music festival. They committed a terrorist act.

The wider context is an Israeli state committed to treating Palestine as a jail for their own ends. It's possible to hold both views that Hamas are terrorists and Israeli actions are wholly wrong.

A terrorist act that is part of a long-running conflict.

 

[platinumsage]

A terrorist act that is part of a long-running conflict.

It was obviously the start of these events though, unless you want to keep going back for several thousand years.

 

[PR1Berske]

A terrorist act that is part of a long-running conflict.

I agree.

 

[PR1Berske]

It was obviously the start of these events though, unless you want to keep going back for several thousand years.

And I agree with you too.

Where do/should we start? Oslo Accords? 1970s? 1940s? Earlier? Antiquity?

The current war - the word used by Israel - began with a terrorist act. We should be able to agree on that.

 

[Johnny Vodka]

It was obviously the start of these events though, unless you want to keep going back for several thousand years.

I wouldn't say so. This isn't justification for Hamas' violence, but it should be seen in the context of recent violence by Israel against Palestinians, and also the continued stealing of land.

 

[editor]

I was looking up stuff on youtube last night and bizarre ad came up purporting to be from State of Israel asking people to Stand by Israel.

I'm seeing those adverts between every other YouTube video. Someone is throwing a shit load of money on propaganda.

 

[Kid_Eternity]

Hamas did start this by slaughtering a music festival. They committed a terrorist act.

The wider context is an Israeli state committed to treating Palestine as a jail for their own ends. It's possible to hold both views that Hamas are terrorists and Israeli actions are wholly wrong.

And that this is a distinct phase as a result of one actors actions.

 

[Kid_Eternity]

I'm seeing those adverts between every other YouTube video. Someone is throwing a shit load of money on propaganda.

 

[PR1Berske]

And that this is a distinct phase as a result of one actors actions.

Absolutely, this is the thing, we're a messageboard on the internet, we have the space but paradoxically not the time to go through all the backstory and context. What's that Margaret Atwood quote about the pluperfect tense? Once you have a past tense you've got to keep skipping on the lily pads, back and back and back. I can't see a peaceful end and I can't see where we use as an agreed start.

 

[Johnny Vodka]

And that this is a distinct phase as a result of one actors actions.

It's just a convenient way of packaging the event, so the solution can be sold as obliterating Hamas (not that they will manage; a new generation of fighters will be borne from this) and Gaza. If you want to try and reach an actual acceptable solution, you need to understand it as part of a long-running conflict and understand the various points of controversy.

 

[cupid_stunt]

I only watch youtube on my laptop, no ads, thanks to the 'uBlock Origin' ad-blocker.

 

[Kevbad the Bad]

Of course, if you obliterate Gaza, make it so uninhabitable that nobody can live there, expel the whole population maybe, you might eliminate Hamas but you will just be creating new problems, new hatreds, new and greater dysfunction.
Zionism needs to recognise that others apart from Jews are entitled to live in Israel/Palestine. Islamists need to realise the same. Chances of all that happening peacefully?

 

[The39thStep]

Actually, the first act and therefore the beginning of Hamas 'starting this' or the 'start of the events' was the firing of anywhere between 2, 500 -3,000 rockets from Gaza which coincided with paragliders and motorised helicopters landing in Israel on the border which allowed a unit to use explosives and bulldozers to break through and dismantle parts of the the wall . Further breaches were made, the Gaza IDF base was attacked and its communications were destroyed.

 

[cupid_stunt]

Israel has reportedly restored water to Gaza under pressure from the US - but only to the south. Not clear if the US even tried to have the water supply restored to the entire territory - or if it tried to stop the order to evacuate the north

https://www.axios.com/2023/10/15/israel-resumes-water-supply-to-southern-gaza-after-us-pressure

I wonder how much use that will be, without electric to pump it around the system and maintain pressure.

 

[Pickman's model]

Actually, the first act and therefore the beginning of Hamas 'starting this' or the 'start of the events' was the firing of anywhere between 2, 500 -3,000 rockets from Gaza which coincided with paragliders and motorised helicopters landing in Israel on the border which allowed a unit to use explosives and bulldozers to break through and dismantle parts of the the wall . Further breaches were made, the Gaza IDF base was attacked and its communications were destroyed.

Stop using these inconvenient facts

 

[Pickman's model]

Absolutely, this is the thing, we're a messageboard on the internet, we have the space but paradoxically not the time to go through all the backstory and context. What's that Margaret Atwood quote about the pluperfect tense? Once you have a past tense you've got to keep skipping on the lily pads, back and back and back. I can't see a peaceful end and I can't see where we use as an agreed start.

You had your chance and you blew it

 

[platinumsage]

Did anyone attend the vigil in Parliament Square today?

 

[WhyLikeThis]

Hamas did start this by slaughtering a music festival. They committed a terrorist act.

The wider context is an Israeli state committed to treating Palestine as a jail for their own ends. It's possible to hold both views that Hamas are terrorists and Israeli actions are wholly wrong.

Zionists started this in 1948 by murdering Palestinians and driving the survivors from their homes, towns, farms and villages.

 

[PTK]

Palestine was under British rule.
The current conflict can be blamed on the failure of the UK to negotiate a just end to its Palestine Mandate.

 

[WhyLikeThis]

Palestine was under British rule.
The current conflict can be blamed on the failure of the UK to negotiate a just end to its Palestine Mandate.

The Balfour declaration was another landmark. However, we are where we are due to the Nakba.

 

[belboid]

Apart from SWP the biggest left group I saw were Socialist Appeal.

Here is their statement:

IMT statement: Defend Gaza! Down with imperialist hypocrisy! | The Communist

The escalation of the Israel-Palestine conflict has led to a chorus of hypocritical condemnation from the western imperialists. The communists stand firmly on the side of the oppressed, against the oppressors. We say: Intifada until victory!

socialist.net

Socialist Appeal might not be everyones cup of tea but they are clear in what they want to see. They had banners saying for a Socialist Socialist Federation of the Middle East.

So I don't think they could be accused of anti semitism

they're a bit of a joke, really. Repeating the same slogans for fifty years, two staters with no idea how to bring them about, no analysis of what has happened in Israel & Palestine since they first came up with their slogans.

 

[planetgeli]

I wouldn't say so. This isn't justification for Hamas' violence, but it should be seen in the context of recent violence by Israel against Palestinians, and also the continued stealing of land.

Yes. One convenient starting point might be the festival, a better one might be what The39thStep posted, or another might be to acknowledge Hamas called this Operation Al-Aqsa flood.

But this whole question was dealt with well by Yousef Munayyer on NPR.

RASCOE: The top military commander for Hamas said his forces attacked Israel in part because of recent Israeli raids happening in the old city of Jerusalem around the Al-Aqsa mosque. How did this area become such a flashpoint?

MUNAYYER: You know, there's an immediate context in the months and years before but, of course, a decadeslong context, as well. You know, the Palestinians who live in the Gaza Strip, the vast majority of them - they've been refugees living inside of Gaza for 75 years. And this is, of course, compounded by decades of military occupation and, in the last decade and a half, a brutal siege of the Gaza Strip, which has held 2 million Palestinians there hostage. In recent years and months, the escalation of violence against Palestinians has been noted by the United Nations and governments throughout the region who've been warning that this escalation of Israeli violence against Palestinians is going to lead to an explosion in the region.

And

RASCOE: Hamas is a group backed by Iran. Does it look like Iran played a role in this operation? And if so, what is their motivation?

MUNAYYER: And, of course, Palestinian grievances with Israel long predate the existence of Hamas as an organization and long predate the existence of the Islamic Republic of Iran, of course. There are all kinds of regional players that have roles and interests in regional conflicts. But the Palestinian issue with Israel goes back to the root and the core, which is the displacement of Palestinians from their towns and villages and the denial of freedom - Palestinians - by the Israeli government since then.

RASCOE: But just to be clear - not to belabor the point, but you don't disagree with the fact that Iran may be providing financial or other support to Hamas?

MUNAYYER: Yeah, I think that there is support for Hamas and other groups in Gaza that comes from Iran and also from other places, as well. And there's, of course, support for a lot of actors in the region that come from many different directions.

And

RASCOE: Do you feel like it is important to distinguish between Palestinians and Hamas because now you have the Israeli government saying that they are going to root out Hamas completely. So is there a way to distinguish Hamas and Palestinians?

MUNAYYER: Well, I think that when we're talking about the battlefield, there needs to be clearly distinguishing between those who aren't involved in hostilities and those who are. The vast majority of Palestinians in that space who are going to be affected by this are not participating in the hostilities at all, even if they may have very clear grievances with Israel and want to see the struggle for freedom succeed.

And

RASCOE: Is there a path to de-escalation, maybe one that involves nations like the U.S.?

MUNAYYER: You know, I think the path to de-escalation has always been clear. It involves the application of international law and the respect for human rights. But we seem to talk about these things in moments like this when there is, of course, an escalation in hostilities, particularly as Israelis are being targeted with violence. But once these moments end, that conversation seems to go by the wayside, and no progress or commitment to the application of international law and human rights for Palestinians is made. And then we find ourselves in this position a few years later wondering how we got here.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

It was obviously the start of these events though, unless you want to keep going back for several thousand years.

Only if you buy the pro-Israeli line that always presents the conflict as Palestinian violence followed by Israeli retaliation, right to defend itself, etc. Israeli violence is constant, everyday, and far more deadly than Palestinian violence if you want to add up the numbers for it.

These are the UN's figures, and before last Saturday, thus far this year, Israel had killed roughly the same number of civilians in Gaza as were killed by Hamas at the music festival. A fairly normal year, in other words.

United Nations Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs - occupied Palestinian territory | Data on casualties

 

[PR1Berske]

Zionists started this in 1948 by murdering Palestinians and driving the survivors from their homes, towns, farms and villages.

Palestine was under British rule.
The current conflict can be blamed on the failure of the UK to negotiate a just end to its Palestine Mandate.

The Balfour declaration was another landmark. However, we are where we are due to the Nakba.

See. One thread isn't enough!

 

[phildwyer]

Ordinary people can't do much bar march and lobby politicians.

Lobbying politicians can be surprisingly effective.

 

[Pickman's model]

Lobbying politicians can be surprisingly effective.

So which politicians would you suggest the denizens of gaza lobby?

 

[phildwyer]

So which politicians would you suggest the denizens of gaza lobby?

One of the reasons virtually every politician in the Anglosphere supports Israel is their belief that not doing so is electoral suicide. If convinced by lobbying that this is not the case, some of them may change their tune. Not many though, because most of them are bribed as well as intimidated.

 

[WhyLikeThis]

Lobbying politicians can be surprisingly effective.

Please see my earlier post.

If you want potholes filled in, you may have some success. If you want the US to compromise on their asset in the Middle East, forget it.