Hamas/Israel conflict: news and discussion

[The39thStep]

Well this all deteriorated fairly predictably.

Meanwhile in Gaza:

Nearly 70% of Gaza war dead women and children - UN

A UN agency verified victims from a six-month period and said it found international law violations.

www.bbc.co.uk

Let nothing get in the way of certain posters just looking for an opportunity to resume hostilities with other posters.

 

[Gramsci]

the British empire in 1948? Hmm, what else was going on with that at the same time? Ohh yeah, it was collapsing as various nations claimed their independence. The empire was over. No way could the mandate simply be continued, no chance at all. Of course Israel had its own interests, but the brits thought they would dovetails neatly/sufficiently with British interests for that to be okay.

Well I was meaning more the Balfour declaration and the subsequent Mandate in which it was written into it the ideas of the Balfour declaration.

The ending of the mandate was a humiliation for the Atlee government. Who were not that pro Zionist compared to say the later Harold Wilson. They handed it over to the new UN to deal with.

During the Mandate the British went to support Arabs and then Zionists. Its was incoherent policy.

Britain imo historically has a lot to answer for in making the ground on which this conflict has developed.

What I'm trying to get away from is the its all about imperialism line.

I'm not convinced that supporting Zionism was in the best interests of the British Empire.

Heard Avi Shlaim say recently that the Balfour declaration was one of the worst foreign policy decisions the British Empire made.

The post WW1 mandates were supposed to be stepping stone for people to get self determination. Not that one Empire decides to give land to a European settler colonial political project. Which is what got written into the Mandate.

Nor do I think having Israel as an ally for the Britain and the west proved a great idea. Seeing what's happening now.

This country still has the 2030 roadmap. Starmer government , despite a few arms embargo, still regards Israel who is an ally.

To me , if on real politic level UK needs to ally with unpleasant countries I would expect that UK gets something back. I don't see that in our relationship with Israel. If anything Israel is a loose cannon.

Not trying to have a go at you here.

I suppose what I'm wary of is the bundling up Israel as part of imperialism Vs the axis of resistance. My enemies enemy is my friend stuff.

Listening to Ilan Pappe few nights ago and he was arguing the its going to be a regional war line was wrong.

It takes attention away from what Zionism has done and is doing now to Palestinians.

If I get him right he's saying stick to basics. Don't elaborate it to being about regional / imperial conflict.

Stick to what is happening to Palestinians land. What Zionists want as end game. And how international public can oppose this.

Still I'm not dismissing the foreign policy - Israel - issue. I'm just a bit wary of it.

 

[hitmouse]

Is it worth splitting off the Amsterdam stuff into a separate thread? My personal opinion is that Amsterdam's worth discussing, and what's happening in Gaza is worth discussing, but I'm not sure how productive it is to have both conversations running in the same thread at the same time?

 

[Gramsci]

Is it worth splitting off the Amsterdam stuff into a separate thread? My personal opinion is that Amsterdam's worth discussing, and what's happening in Gaza is worth discussing, but I'm not sure how productive it is to have both conversations running in the same thread at the same time?

I have followed this thread for months and learnt to skip it posts when it gets like this.

Carry on my reading stuff and posting up.

My way of dealing with this is that I've put spymaster on ignore few months ago for example. Along with LDC

I'd recommend other posters do the same.

Having a separate thread would be of no purpose other than an outlet for some posters to have a go at others. So maybe separate thread is idea. I will be putting it on ignore straight away

 

[Gramsci]

This woman came from Gaza to this country. Persevered and got a PHD. Then got a teaching post at a university. To cut a long story short she has been hounded by the Jewish Chronicle in particular.

Basically after watching the whole peace she was hounded for being a Palestinian.

The second half is very moving as she talks about what's happened to her community in Gaza.

What really upset her is that her employer the university did not support her. Sounds like the opposite. Once she got attacked by Jewish Chronicle.

She understood a Zionist supporting paper like Jewish Chronicle would attack someone like her. What was obviously unbearable for her was that the university colluded in this ( allegedly they deny it)

She puts this in context of decades of dehumanisation of Palestinians that started even before State of Israel was founded. That as a Palestinian from Gaza putting the Palestinian point of view enraged Zionists in this country.

From watching the interview I'm ashamed this country didn't give her the support she needed. The attacks on her personally have clearly taken a toll on her.

To make clear the university got the allegations of anti semitism leveled against her independently looked into and she was cleared on that.

This is example of what can happen to someone who sticks up for Palestinians. They will be accused of anti semitism. Mud sticks. And in her case it continued even after she decided to leave the Uni job.

 

[Boris Sprinkler]

Is it worth splitting off the Amsterdam stuff into a separate thread? My personal opinion is that Amsterdam's worth discussing, and what's happening in Gaza is worth discussing, but I'm not sure how productive it is to have both conversations running in the same thread at the same time?

Amsterdam is worth discussing because of how it has been framed in the media.
It’s part of a wider issue.

 

[teqniq]

Amsterdam is worth discussing because of how it has been framed in the media.
It’s part of a wider issue.

Post it in the other thread that hitmouse has created then, not here.

 

[brogdale]

Well this all deteriorated fairly predictably.

Meanwhile in Gaza:

Nearly 70% of Gaza war dead women and children - UN

A UN agency verified victims from a six-month period and said it found international law violations.

www.bbc.co.uk

This did not get the attention it deserved yesterday. Despite the usual cringe-worthy attempts at 'balance",when the UK's state broadcaster has to report these things it is highly significant:

The agency said the high number was largely due to Israel's use of weapons with wide-area effects in densely populated areas...The report said it found "unprecedented" levels of international law violations, raising concerns about "war crimes and other possible atrocity crimes".

Its analysis found around 44% of verified victims were children and 26% women. The ages most represented among the dead were five to nine-year-olds.
About 80% of victims were killed in residential buildings or similar housing, the agency added. The report said the data indicates "an apparent indifference to the death of civilians and the impact of the means and methods of warfare".

 

[Pickman's model]

This did not get the attention it deserved yesterday. Despite the usual cringe-worthy attempts at 'balance",when the UK's state broadcaster has to report these things it is highly significant:

I don't think it's fair to say the zionists are indifferent to civilian deaths when all the evidence speaks to the contrary

 

[tim]

Fuck off

The moderators allow you to get away with a lot of shit too.

 

[tim]

Having a separate thread would be of no purpose other than an outlet for some posters to have a go at others. So maybe separate thread is idea. I will be putting it on ignore straight away

Yes, keep this a safe space for antiSemites.

 

[Gramsci]

Well this all deteriorated fairly predictably.

Meanwhile in Gaza:

Nearly 70% of Gaza war dead women and children - UN

A UN agency verified victims from a six-month period and said it found international law violations.

www.bbc.co.uk

This is the full report

https://www.ohchr.org/en/documents/reports/six-month-update-report-human-rights-situation-gaza-1-november-2023-30-april-2024

On figures its difficult as Israel is not allowing people to come in to verify on the ground. Nor given death toll of UN workers is it safe to do so.

Figures used are conservative side. Which I understand as report like this will be taken apart otherwise.

A lot of the report goes over old ground. Which is understandable.

Its also critical of Hamas military wing.

The underlying problem with reports like this is that it's up to individual states to make sure recommendations are complied with.

 

[_Russ_]

Yes, keep this a safe space for antiSemites.

Its a place to share views, that you have different ones is acknowledged but you owe a lot of people an apology for that anti semetic slur when the discussion is wholly centred on Israel's disgusting inhumane treatment of Gazans that is currently happening

 

[Gramsci]

On figures of deaths recent X post by Board of Deputies of British Jews argues its all Hamas fault and any suggestion that death toll is high is the worst sort of propaganda.



The article they are referring to is here:

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(24)01169-3/fulltext

My reading of the article in Lancet is that its saying that death toll is likely to be higher over long term due to things like destruction of the health care system for example. Which leads to illnesses not being treated with resulting deaths. So indirect deaths due to the way IDF have conducted the war.

Considering this has been going on for almost a year now. With clearly IDF targeting civilian infrastructure and using bombing that is indiscriminate its pretty tasteless of the Board of Deputies of British Jews to still be putting out this line.

What Board of Deputies is doing is trying to make it so unpleasant for the Lancet that it stops publishing articles like this. Or at least thinks twice before doing so.

 

[Gramsci]

This is the full report

https://www.ohchr.org/en/documents/reports/six-month-update-report-human-rights-situation-gaza-1-november-2023-30-april-2024

On figures its difficult as Israel is not allowing people to come in to verify on the ground. Nor given death toll of UN workers is it safe to do so.

Figures used are conservative side. Which I understand as report like this will be taken apart otherwise.

A lot of the report goes over old ground. Which is understandable.

Its also critical of Hamas military wing.

The underlying problem with reports like this is that it's up to individual states to make sure recommendations are complied with.

From the report. Says death figures are likely to be higher than what is reported.

10. The levels of death and injury in Gaza since 7 October 2023 are likely to be much higher
than currently reported, given: i) the widespread destruction of civilian infrastructure, including
the collapse of the healthcare system following the IDF’s attacks on hospitals across Gaza,
which deprived the population of not only emergency care, but also maternity care as well as
care for those with chronic illness, such as cancer and heart conditions; ii) the initial “complete
siege” of the Gaza Strip followed by other unlawful restrictions on the entry and distribution of
humanitarian assistance, with a grossly inadequate amount of food, water, electricity and fuel
allowed to enter; iii) the killing of humanitarian workers, and of civilian police personnel
providing security to aid delivery, further hindering the distribution of items indispensable to
the survival of the civilian population; and iv) repeated massive displacement of people, both
further to evacuation orders and as a result of the fighting itself, increasing exposure to death
from illness and disease with people living in cramped and unsanitary conditions without access
to essential services.15
11. Starvation became a reality for Palestinians in early January 2024, especially in the north,
with the most vulnerable, including infants and older persons, reportedly dying first

Either this is due to disregard by IDF or its intentional.

Given its been going on for a year Id say its intentional.

IDF and Israel government are fully aware of these reports of which this is one and disregarded them.

 

[ID47]

Yes, keep this a safe space for antiSemites.

That's way out of fucking order.

 

[ID47]

From the report. Says death figures are likely to be higher than what is reported.





Either this is due to disregard by IDF or its intentional.

Given its been going on for a year Id say its intentional.

A concern is that many bodies of the missing may never be found due to israel bulldozing ruined buildings thereby potentially hiding the evidence of thousands of deaths and crimes against civilians.

 

[Gramsci]

A concern is that many bodies of the missing may never be found due to israel bulldozing ruined buildings thereby potentially hiding the evidence of thousands of deaths and crimes against civilians.

Yes that is what is happening.

The Lancet article I posted up says this,

. At the same time, there is a need to record the scale and nature of suffering in this conflict. Documenting the true scale is crucial for ensuring historical accountability and acknowledging the full cost of the war. It is also a legal requirement. The interim measures set out by the International Court of Justice in January, 2024, require Israel to “take effective measures to prevent the destruction and ensure the preservation of evidence related to allegations of acts within the scope of … the Genocide Convention”.11

Due to IDF/ Israel government not allowing independent access to Gaza its hard not to get into arguments about figures and evidence.

I'd say IDF are making sure as little evidence as possible will be kept.

 

[HeAthen]

That's way out of fucking order.

Like I said earlier, people like who abuse claims of anti-semitism should be regarded with the disdain they deserve.

 

[tim]

That's way out of fucking order.

I know they should be banned.

 

[Gramsci]

It's worth thinking of using the ignore function on urban.

I do.

 

[belboid]

It's worth thinking of using the ignore function on urban.

I do.

that's absolute bullshit and one you should have been pulled up on before.

what other kinds of racism should urbanites just ignore? Racist posters should be got rid of.

I am not at all convinced most of those being called anti-semites are. But there are some, notably russ, and it is on all of us to call them out.

I should add that those making the accusations should back them up and be specific, hit n runs 'thats antisemitic' that we get from one or two posters are of very little value.

 

[Gramsci]

that's absolute bullshit and one you should have been pulled up on before.

what other kinds of racism should urbanites just ignore? Racist posters should be got rid of.

I am not at all convinced most of those being called anti-semites are, at all. But there are some, notably russ, and it is on all of us to call them out.

There are three posters I've put on ignore since this thread started. One for posts directed at me on other threads.

Throughout my time on this thread my way of posting is to read up on the issue. As before this started I didn't know much about the conflict.

I've also tried to largely put up posts based on my reading. Rather than just having a go at people.

Though due to subject matter it's got heated at times.

I've tried to distinguish between Jews in general and Zionism in my posts here.

Today been posting more on UN report and death figures. I do this by having some posters on ignore now. I'm entitled to do it and without ignore function I think I'd probably give up posting.

 

[belboid]

There are three posters I've put on ignore since this thread started. One for posts directed at me on other threads.

Throughout my time on this thread my way of posting is to read up on the issue. As before this started I didn't know much about the conflict.

I've also tried to largely put up posts based on my reading. Rather than just having a go at people.

Though due to subject matter it's got heated at times.

I've tried to distinguish between Jews in general and Zionism in my posts here.

Today been posting more on UN report and death figures. I do this by having some posters on ignore now. I'm entitled to do it and without ignore function I think I'd probably give up posting.

That has nothing to do with what I posted.

You've told posters, including at least one jewish poster, to just ignore perceived anti-semitism, to use the ignore function so they dont see it. That is bullshit. You are perfectly welcome to ignore whoever you like, that's your choice. Dont tell other posters to ignore things they find objectionable.

 

[Gramsci]

That has nothing to do with what I posted.

You've told posters, including at least one jewish poster, to just ignore perceived anti-semitism, to use the ignore function so they dont see it. That is bullshit. You are perfectly welcome to ignore whoever you like, that's your choice. Dont tell other posters to ignore things they find objectionable.

No I haven't said any such thing.

 

[belboid]

If someone doesn't like a thread they can put it on ignore.

in response to (amongst other things) complaints about ignored anti-semitism

 

[Gramsci]

in response to (amongst other things) complaints about ignored anti-semitism

Which was LDC and another poster who comes on every three months to say how terrible it is. And because of this thread they won't post on any section of Urban.

It's the I can't post on Urban at all because of one thread I was taking issue with.

Like I said I have put threads on ignore and posters on ignore. In order to be able to keep posting.

The general environment of the politics boards are pretty unpleasant in general imo. Why is I've tended to keep off them. Some I just don't post on. I'm not that hard nosed for politics boards in general

 

[tim]

It's worth thinking of using the ignore function on urban.

I do.

Like the moderators continue to ignore this.

State of the world and all because some dicks want to pretend to be the chosen people.

I suppose we should be grateful that ID47 either edited out their comments about Judeonazis, or had them edited out.

 

[krtek a houby]

Its a place to share views, that you have different ones is acknowledged but you owe a lot of people an apology for that anti semetic slur when the discussion is wholly centred on Israel's disgusting inhumane treatment of Gazans that is currently happening

Have you apologised yet for your anti-Semitism, racism, homophobia, misogyny etc?

 

[Pickman's model]

Have you apologised yet for your anti-Semitism, racism, homophobia, misogyny etc?

Our resident Walt is uncomfortable acknowledging such things