Hamas/Israel conflict: news and discussion

[ska invita]

But is someone who kills 100 babies recklessly, more evil than someone who kills 10 on purpose?

A good example of that ridiculous search for moral high ground, which the brits reached the peak of a century ago and never came down from

 

[Pickman's model]

A good example of that ridiculous search for moral high ground, which the brits reached the peak of in 1896 and never came down from

After chitral the year before?

 

[Gramsci]

Sorry cant keep up with all the pages. So hope this has not already been posted up

Posted a few things on this thread. I decided to try and see what people living in Israel and Palestine thought. The39thStep posted up an ariticle by Israeli liberal paper a while back that shows in Israel not everyone is taking the line I see a lot on this thread.

Post in thread 'October 2023: Hamas/Israel conflict' October 2023: Hamas/Israel conflict

Here is another short video by Knesset member. Quite moving as in it says he has just lost some friends - killed by Hamas.



In this he condemns violence of Hamas and his own government. Says the only way to end this cycle of violence is for Palestinians to have genuine state of their own.

He also says this in this article.

We Condemn and Oppose Any Assault on Innocent Civilians From Both Sides, MK Cassif | Communist Party of Israel

maki.org.il

Im not to up on Israeli parties but his is left coalition including the Communist party. Gets enough votes to have a few seats.

Compare what he says- someone who has just lost friends - to the way elected politicians go on in this country.

 

[not-bono-ever]

yeh, I was just thinking that the knock on effect of an invasion - even temporay - and resultant fighting/ PR will not sit well with that other lot in the north or with the territories closer to home. if destabilisation is the aim, then this could provoke further actions around the state

 

[not-bono-ever]

.

 

[Kevbad the Bad]

Sorry cant keep up with all the pages. So hope this has not already been posted up

Posted a few things on this thread. I decided to try and see what people living in Israel and Palestine thought. The39thStep posted up an ariticle by Israeli liberal paper a while back that shows in Israel not everyone is taking the line I see a lot on this thread.

Here is another short video by Knesset member. Quite moving as in it says he has just lost some friends - killed by Hamas.



In this he condemns violence of Hamas and his own government. Says the only way to end this cycle of violence is for Palestinians to have genuine state of their own.

He also says this in this article.

We Condemn and Oppose Any Assault on Innocent Civilians From Both Sides, MK Cassif | Communist Party of Israel

maki.org.il

Im not to up on Israeli parties but his is left coalition including the Communist party. Gets enough votes to have a few seats.

Compare what he says- someone who has just lost friends - to the way elected politicians go on in this country.

Very true. UK political leaders are talking nothing but slogans. As if their audience, the people, are too stupid to notice.

 

[Spymaster]

A good example of that ridiculous search for moral high ground, which the brits reached the peak of a century ago and never came down from

I couldn't agree more, although I doubt we're talking about the same people.

 

[Pickman's model]

the only way to liberate the village was to destroy it /

But it will be more my lai than ben tre

 

[Kid_Eternity]

Sorry cant keep up with all the pages. So hope this has not already been posted up

Posted a few things on this thread. I decided to try and see what people living in Israel and Palestine thought. The39thStep posted up an ariticle by Israeli liberal paper a while back that shows in Israel not everyone is taking the line I see a lot on this thread.

Here is another short video by Knesset member. Quite moving as in it says he has just lost some friends - killed by Hamas.



In this he condemns violence of Hamas and his own government. Says the only way to end this cycle of violence is for Palestinians to have genuine state of their own.

He also says this in this article.

We Condemn and Oppose Any Assault on Innocent Civilians From Both Sides, MK Cassif | Communist Party of Israel

maki.org.il

Im not to up on Israeli parties but his is left coalition including the Communist party. Gets enough votes to have a few seats.

Compare what he says- someone who has just lost friends - to the way elected politicians go on in this country.

This is my experience from Jewish friends (we’ve had many discussions about Israel and the occupation), the citizens of Israel aren’t a monolithic block despite what the usual armchair activists in the U.K. like to believe…

 

[Kid_Eternity]

yeh, I was just thinking that the knock on effect of an invasion - even temporay - and resultant fighting/ PR will not sit well with that other lot in the north or with the territories closer to home. if destabilisation is the aim, then this could provoke further actions around the state

Hamas’ looks like Bin Laden in terms of strategy; ensnare a bigger power in a protracted military conflict they cannot win without risking all they hold dear and their global relations…

 

[Gramsci]

This is my experience from Jewish friends (we’ve had many discussions about Israel and the occupation), the citizens of Israel aren’t a monolithic block despite what the usual armchair activists in the U.K. like to believe…

And also it appear our mainstream politicians believe the same.

On Israel

Read a few history books on Israel/ Palestine by Israelis- Tom Segev and Ilan Pappe - that generation of historians who looked critically at their history.

Also recently seen this film Ahed's Knee (2021) 6.3 | Drama, Music

Hard hitting satire on present day Israel.

So agree it is a mistake to see Israel as monolithic society

 

[Pickman's model]

And also it appear our mainstream politicians.

On Israel

Read a few history books on Israel/ Palestine by Israelis- Tom Segev and Ilan Pappe - that generation of historians who looked critically at their history.

Also recently seen this film Ahed's Knee (2021) 6.3 | Drama, Music

Hard hitting satire on present day Israel.

So agree it is a mistake to see Israel as monolithic society

Their government on the other hand doesn't seem too divided. And atm that'll be more important than how your average zionist might feel: altho divisions will assume greater importance over time

 

[Pickman's model]

I'll just leave this rand document on previous conflict in gaza here https://www.rand.org/pubs/research_briefs/RB9975.html

 

[donkyboy]

Funny how the world is given access to towns and locations of so called Hamas massacres, but try getting such free access to Gaza.

 

[Kid_Eternity]

And also it appear our mainstream politicians believe the same.

On Israel

Read a few history books on Israel/ Palestine by Israelis- Tom Segev and Ilan Pappe - that generation of historians who looked critically at their history.

Also recently seen this film Ahed's Knee (2021) 6.3 | Drama, Music

Hard hitting satire on present day Israel.

So agree it is a mistake to see Israel as monolithic society

Even the state isn’t uniform, some of the biggest opposition to the executive power grab came from the military.

 

[Kid_Eternity]

Funny how the world is given access to towns and locations of so called Hamas massacres, but try getting such free access to Gaza.

So called? Hamas live streamed their butchery.

 

[agricola]

Their government on the other hand doesn't seem too divided. And atm that'll be more important than how your average zionist might feel: altho divisions will assume greater importance over time

The (current) government doesn't, but as of the time of writing Gantz, Lapid and Lieberman (!) still haven't joined the national unity government under the terms the government have offered (no blame for anyone, an acceptance that "the left" caused this).

 

[Pickman's model]

Even the state isn’t uniform, some of the biggest opposition to the executive power grab came from the military.

I don't suppose they'll much oppose the government in time of war

 

[strung out]

But you never hear "Palestinians have the right (to try) to end the occupation".

Until I get independent assessment of all these so called "butchering" by Hamas, I don't believe a word of it

we were initially led to believe Hamas attacked a peace festival when it was nothing of the sort.

Funny how the world is given access to towns and locations of so called Hamas massacres

Hey donkyboy, thanks for your contributions on this thread, I was wondering if you could expand on the posts above, especially the bits in bold, as I get the feeling you're hinting at something, but I want to be sure before I say anything. Thanks!

 

[TopCat]

Zelensky fan boy arrives

 

[Gramsci]

Even the state isn’t uniform, some of the biggest opposition to the executive power grab came from the military.

That may so but for Palestinians how the Israeli state operated , whatever government was in power, neither led to them getting their own state or stop gradual encroachment on their land. Its a common thing I hear Palestinians say in recent interviews when asked about the present hard right government.

Remember Ilan Pappe saying that Israel operates like European democracy. Same kind of arguments go on. But the elephant in the room is the Palestinians.

Listening to the Palestinian historian Rashid Khalidi this evening and his argument is that on the Israeli governments side the peace process never was about Palestinians getting a genuine state. In his book he says it was a mistake for PLO to accept coming bsck to a Palestinian Authority. It never was going to lead to a true state. What happened suited the Israel State. Now the PLO police for them. It discredited the PLO in many Palestinians eyes. Also means the Palestinians feel abandoned by the international community. Rashid Khalidi points out the state of Israel also heavily depended on outside support. Initially USSR and USA. Before that UK.

So for Palestinians the state is uniform in sense that it never is going to concede them genuine rights.

Rashid Khalidi traces this back to early days of Zionism and the Balfour declaration.

Which imo is major reason the bloodshed continues. Unless the Palestinians are totally crushed.

 

[bcuster]

Here's a summary of the specific US naval assets being deployed to the area

Here's the military support the US is sending toward Israel, from US Navy ships to munitions

After the surprise attacks on Israel by Hamas, the US has begun sending support in the form of munitions and military assistance toward Israel.

www.businessinsider.com

The US is thinking about sending another aircraft carrier into waters near Israel, possibly to back up the Ford strike group: reports

The USS Dwight D. Eisenhower is on scheduled deployment and could back up the USS Gerald R. Ford near Israel, officials told The Wall Street Journal.

www.businessinsider.com

 

[tim]

Zelensky fan boy arrives

Isn't Zelensky part of the resistance to a brutal occupying force?

 

[platinumsage]

I'll just leave this rand document on previous conflict in gaza here https://www.rand.org/pubs/research_briefs/RB9975.html

But what do you think about it?

 

[dylanredefined]

Hamas’ looks like Bin Laden in terms of strategy; ensnare a bigger power in a protracted military conflict they cannot win without risking all they hold dear and their global relations…

That is a terrible plan. Bin Laden and supporters and all they held dear got destroyed and the USA feels a bit upset.
No one with the ability to stop Israel is going to raise a hand until the body count gets uncomfortable high. Even then it's not going to be much.

 

[dylanredefined]

Hamas’ looks like Bin Laden in terms of strategy; ensnare a bigger power in a protracted military conflict they cannot win without risking all they hold dear and their global relations…

That is a terrible plan. Bin Laden and supporters and all they held dear got destroyed and the USA feels a bit upset.
No one with the ability to stop Israel is going to raise a hand until the body count gets uncomfortable high. Even then it's not going to be much.

 

[tim]

Lets wait for official independent confirmation. After all, we were initially led to believe Hamas attacked a peace festival when it was nothing of the sort.

It was a just festival full of hippies who were slaughtered. Is that a better definition, or can you give an explanation that makes the victims in some way more culpable for their demise.

 

[kebabking]

It was a just festival full of hippies who were slaughtered. Is that a better definition, or can you give an explanation that makes the victims in some way more culpable for their demise.

I think with half a dozen 'so called...' from donkyboy, we've already got the cut of his jib - and it's not a jib thats particularly interested in either nuance or reality.

Probably has interesting views on vaccines and 5G as well....

 

[tim]

I think with half a dozen 'so called...' from donkyboy, we've already got the cut of his jib - and it's not a jib thats particularly interested in either nuance or reality.

Probably has interesting views on vaccines and 5G as well....

He's a vaccine fan, at least for cats, and he's very protective of an injured bird he's rescued from the aforementioned cats.

Maybe it's just "Zionists" with whom he has issues.

 

[Pickman's model]

But what do you think about it?

If you want to know a bit more about previous zionist experience fighting in gaza it's a useful place to start; also that you ought to read the faq to see what a content-free post is. Mine wasn't. If you showed the same zeal for tackling people posting up nothing more than a link or tweet that you do for your pedantry perhaps you could make this thread a better place