Hamas/Israel conflict: news and discussion

[littlebabyjesus]

You're right. I could have mentioned Xinjiang and the lack of attention it gets. 7 pages in 6.5 years with no nazi comparisons, while this one's got 504 pages in just over a year and nazi comparisons out the wazoo.

To what end would you mention that?

I don't think you've understood maomao's point BTW.

 

[mojo pixy]

To what end would you mention that?

I don't think you've understood maomao's point BTW.

I understood the point. What I'm doing there is making one of my own by reference to that point. It's called a discussion, try it sometime instead of just popping up to snark at something you don't like.

 

[HeAthen]

The history of Western Colonialism does fill me with disgust. The genocide in Palestine is urgent and ongoing and the governments of Britain, the US and Autralia, along with many others, are complicit. The US in particular have fostered the sense of Israeli exceptionalism that has allowed things to go this far. We don't really need to restate that on every page.

Yep, and I think it's pretty clear that many of us most certainly do feel disgust at the actions and attitudes of the British government (pre and post GE) over this. I'm utterly apalled at our complicity in the atrocities Israel is being allowed to get away with.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I understood the point. What I'm doing there is making one of my own by reference to that point. It's called a discussion, try it sometime instead of just popping up to snark at something you don't like.

Look in the mirror for that particular fault.

 

[maomao]

You're right. I could have mentioned Xinjiang and the lack of attention it gets. 7 pages in 6.5 years with no nazi comparisons, while this one's got 504 pages in just over a year and nazi comparisons out the wazoo.

Pretty sure several posters have called the Chinese government fascists at least. Again, the clear implication of your post, whatever you intended, is that this difference is down to anti-semitism and not the dozens of Palestinians being murdered in plain sight every day.

 

[Boris Sprinkler]

But long term projections on “defense “ spending are predicting good annual performance for pension funds.

 

[PTK]

According to the BBC:
"Recent decades have seen a mass migration of Han Chinese (China's ethnic majority) into Xinjiang, allegedly orchestrated by the state to dilute the minority population there."
It seems like it would be fair to compare some of the activities of the State of Israel to those of the People's Republic of China.

 

[Boris Sprinkler]

But they make us nice stuff in their factories.

 

[teqniq]

Comment seems to me to be superfluous:




Wizard Bisan
@Wizard__Bisan

I don't know if this post is to ask for your solidarity.. We tried it, and nothing stopped Israel's thirst for the blood of my people, or it was not enough for that!

But this is to show how horrific our world is, and how alone my people are in the face of the monster.

*I once heard a story that I did not like, about a village where everyone was vile and despicable, so they threw the only man in the village who had noble morals off the mountain. They killed him because he reminded them of their ugliness. *

This is what is happening with the Palestinians today, unfortunately. The queue you see now in this photo taken an hour ago in Jabalia / North Gaza is the death queue.The Israeli terrorist army separates the females from the males (men and male children sometimes)...They order the women to leave and take the men to a far place, with their hands tied and blindfolded and they are often placed in a deep hole.. and we all know what happens later.

Either they bury them alive, as happened in the north and Khan Yunis during the first ground invasion, or they execute them on the ground, or they take them hostage, as happened to 10,000 who subsequently suffered torture, murder, organ theft, and rape. What do you think? What is the most likely scenario? I feel disgusted with all human ideals and values. The Zionist colonizers in 2024 are doing this before your eyes.

What oppression and pain, these men survived and protected their families from all kinds of death over the course of a year and until the last moment, and they refused to leave their homes, and now they are being annihilated in this way. They are depopulating northern Gaza by killing the entire population!



source

 

[Gramsci]

Nobody is expecting anybody to develop warm feelings towards some random country they have no connection to. But this disgust at israeli history can easily be overplayed; many nations have a disgusting history, the 'united' kingdom no less (arguably even more) than any of them. Let's not judge any country's history by a different standard from that by which we judge our own: That doesn't mean I hate all British people but the state of Great Britain and its history just fills me with disgust.

You have said this more than once.

Who here is judging Israel any differently to other countries?

.

 

[tim]

I agree that Egyptian or Saudi dictators don't give a fuck about Palestinians, but I wasn't aware that they were supplying the State of Isreal with weapons to kill the Palestinians.

Egypt works with the Israelis to control who can cross the border between Gaza and Egypt. They are also murderously brutal in their crackdown on dissidents South of the border in Sinai. The Saudis want much closer links with Israel amongst other things because of the Crown Prince's Neom fantasy, part of which cannot go ahead without Israeli cooperation.

 

[Gramsci]

On Britain. More than once I've brought up the history of Britain in relationship to middle east and Palestine mandate.

On British Empire role in interfering in middle east. The role it played in causing the background to the problems now seen in middle east and Palestine/ Israel.

Israel has never just been any country for Britain. Had a rocky relationship with Zionism. But did have one

Up to present day. David Lammy says publicly he's a Zionist. The 2030 road map still exists as far as I know

I think being from this country with it's ongoing history in relation to Israel it's entirely legitimate to take an interest.

 

[Serge Forward]

Egypt works with the Israelis to control who can cross the border between Gaza and Egypt. They are also murderously brutal in their crackdown on dissidents South of the border in Sinai. The Saudis want much closer links with Israel amongst other things because of the Crown Prince's Neom fantasy, part of which cannot go ahead without Israeli cooperation.

I have no doubt they collude with Israel. Are they providing any weapons to bomb Gaza, Lebanon and to flatten homes in the West Bank as well?

 

[mojo pixy]

...saying 'why aren't you talking about Brazil, Australia and the US?' Maybe you should be more explicit.

I didn't say that. Read back.

The post I was responding to was

Election has no validity when the indigenous population has been ethnically cleansed and millions have been imported and given voting rights to replace them.

I then gave three examples of countries that still exist with little or no international condemnation, all founded on invasion, genocide and settlement by outsiders. All founded using racism, eugenics and plain brutality. Now I've mentioned another place in the world where right now there's a genocide happening that literally nobody has compared to nazis--

(The distinction between general 'fascist' accusations eg. the PRC or Putin's Russia and specifically 'nazi' accusations eg Israel is important because of a particular thing nazis are known for that fascists more generally aren't known for. Personally, call Israel 2024 'fascist' all you like, it'd be as accurate and debateable as calling Putin's Russia or the PRC fascist. But 'nazi' comes with a load of connotations that everyone knows about, and this really shouldn't need explaining at such length and so many times)

--this isn't an attempt at deflection. It's an attempt to highlight for example how posters describing say Putin's Russia as merely 'fascist' get endless arguments and even ridicule, while posters describing israel as not fascist but actually nazi get told it's unhelpful etc but really nobody's that bothered. Words like 'disgust' get chucked around a lot here, to be sure, but usually about individuals or hated groups, not whole countries and their history.

Look in the mirror for that particular fault.

no u

Who here is judging Israel any differently to other countries?

The Left

 

[maomao]

I then gave three examples of countries that still exist with little or no international condemnation, all founded on invasion, genocide and settlement by outsiders. All founded using racism, eugenics and plain brutality. Now I've mentioned another place in the world where right now there's a genocide happening that literally nobody has compared to nazis--

On this occasion. You've used the word 'Australia' in 12 posts on this thread, probably a couple of those are quotebacks but you've made the same general point more than half a dozen times; it's a regular rhetorical device that you're using, not a specific point.

And ftr I'm happy with calling the CCP 'fucking Nazis'.

 

[mojo pixy]

And ftr I'm happy with calling the CCP 'fucking Nazis'.

Fair enough.

On this occasion. You've used the word 'Australia' in 12 posts on this thread, probably a couple of those are quotebacks but you've made the same general point more than half a dozen times; it's a regular rhetorical device that you're using, not a specific point.

I agree I maybe should have mentioned the USA a few times instead, but Australia is generally viewed with great affection in the UK and elsewhere and I find the tension between that affection and the unutterable brutality which underlies and pre-dates it grimly fascinating.

 

[Gramsci]

The Left

I can understand you objecting to the Nazi comparison. So did I.

From what I've seen your view is that state of Israel is the only Jewish state , Jews have been subject to anti Semitism for hundreds of years and are entitled to be able to have their own state.

Why do people concentrate on Israel when all states are pretty well flawed with histories that aren't that good.

At root what you take exception to is any solution which would diminish this. Ie a one state solution. That's how I read what you have said before. As this would mean it's not longer a state for Jewish people specifically.

I don't think any poster here has advocated that the existing Jewish population in Israel/ Palestine should be removed.

The argument is at root what a solution could be.

 

[maomao]

I agree I maybe should have mentioned the USA a few times instead, but Australia is generally viewed with great affection in the UK and elsewhere and I find the tension between that affection and the unutterable brutality which underlines and pre-dates it grimly fascinating.

That's not the impression a search of U75's World Politics forum for threads with Australia in the title would give me. Mostly about left wing politics and indigenous rights. And my own opinion is that they've got away with a fraction of the opprobrium South Africa got when they're pretty much in the same ballpark. But this is the Israel thread.

 

[PTK]

There is a difference between the expulsion of a population and the extermination of a population. The dead cannot vote. However, the descendants of the Palestinian Arab people who were forced off the land on which they lived in order to create the State of Israel are very much alive, and would be able to vote if they were able to exercise their right in international law to return to what is now the territory of the State of Israel.

Northern Ireland is a gerrymandered entity, which was created to ensure a permanent Protestant majority, and the State of Israel is also a gerrymandered entity. Can we claim an entity is truly democratic when the boundaries of the entity have been fixed to ensure that one group always has a majority?

Galilee was under military rule until 1966, and its absorption into the State of Israel gave its Palestinian Arab inhabitants the right to vote in Israeli elections.

That is why the State of Israel is in a dilemma over the West Bank. The State of Israel does not want to withdraw from the West Bank, but if it integrates that territory, then the people there will have the vote, and an Israeli Jewish majority will no longer be guaranteed.

 

[mojo pixy]

And my own opinion is that they've got away with a fraction of the opprobrium South Africa got when they're pretty much in the same ballpark. But this is the Israel thread.

I'm not sure that's true any more, which IMO is a positive trajectory. But at least SA is a comparison that bears closer scrutiny. 'Nazis' is just splenetic posturing.

 

[Flavour]

It feels like Israel is just joyriding this wave of violence and is unable to contemplate what comes afterwards. The terrifying thing is that whoever wins the next US election won't make any difference. I really don't see any way out of this without a coup against netanyahu in Israel, which seems extremely unlikely

 

[Gramsci]

That is why the State of Israel is in a dilemma over the West Bank. The State of Israel does not want to withdraw from the West Bank, but if it integrates that territory, then the people there will have the vote, and an Israeli Jewish majority will no longer be guaranteed.

Which is the reason for objecting to those who support a one state solution.

Israel under Zionism isn't just about land.

It's land plus demographics

 

[Boris Sprinkler]

 

[HeAthen]

He really is a vile piece of shit.

 

[mojo pixy]

From what I've seen your view is that state of Israel is the only Jewish state , Jews have been subject to anti Semitism for hundreds of years and are entitled to be able to have their own state.
...
At root what you take exception to is any solution which would diminish this. Ie a one state solution. That's how I read what you have said before. As this would mean it's not longer a state for Jewish people specifically.

I'm not against a one-state solution at all, I just think some form of two-state solution will be easier to implement at first. I'd like to think these two states might later coalesce. Legal recognition and support/enforcement of both an independent Palestine and a de-escalatory Israel could only help that along.

 

[tim]

Tv..

Most nations have disgusting histories but most nations are not committing war crimes, crimes against humanity, ethnic cleansing, defacto 'apartheid' and mass murder of tens of thousands of civilians right now in 2024.

2024 FFS.

Most countries aside from Syria, Myanmar, Sudan, Russia, etc.

 

[teqniq]

I would embed this vid but it's too large for the server. Please give it a watch:

 

[Kevbad the Bad]

Tv..
Most countries aside from Syria, Myanmar, Sudan, Russia, etc.

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but our government is not actually colluding with the governments of Syria, Myanmar, Sudan or Russia. This has some bearing on the issue and partly why people get so incensed about it all.

 

[Serge Forward]

Tv..
Most countries aside from Syria, Myanmar, Sudan, Russia, etc.

Indeed. But I don't recall UK government and opposition leaders, nor the mass media, being broadly supportive of, and enabling, the crimes of governments in Syria, Myanmar, Sudan or Russia.

Eta: Kevbad beat me to it.

 

[cloudyday]

And the fact that Gaza is a walled camp where the inhabitants are unable to move across a border.