Hamas/Israel conflict: news and discussion

[Gramsci]

Brazil's President Lula creates two new Indigenous territories, bringing total to 10

It's a contrast to his predecessor, Jair Bolsonaro, who encouraged development of the Amazon — legal and illegal — and didn't add areas designated as Indigenous lands.

www.nbcnews.com

Not saying it's perfect in south America. But moves are being made. It's an ongoing process with gains and push backs. As seen here below.

I know you have some concern because you were expecting six Indigenous lands. We decided to authorize two, and that frustrated some of our friends,” Lula said, standing next to his Indigenous peoples minister, Sônia Guajajara, who wore a traditional yellow feather headdress. “I did this so I wouldn’t lie to you. It is better to solve the problems instead of just authorizing it.”

 

[Gramsci]

Can one imagine President Herzog or Netanyahu next to a Palestinian in this context? As in Brazil?

 

[Gramsci]

The comparison with South America and Israel is that there is a space democratically to produce positive change in south America.

I just don't see that with state of Israel

Despite having a vibrant civil society Palestinians just can't seem to get anywhere using peaceful democratic methods .

Appeals to international community/ civil non violent action in occupied territories get no where in practice

Why is that?

 

[tim]

As far as I can gather indigenous people in those countries have a vote now.

In Israel and it's occupied territories Palestinians don't.

Take the West Bank. For all intents and purposes it's been effectively annexed by state of Israel.

A Jewish settler living in one of the Jewish housing developments built since 67 in West Bank does have a vote. it's correct to say Jewish in this context as local Palestinians have no chance of getting to live in them.

My understanding is that the Palestinian population of West Bank who now live side by side with the Jewish settlers don't.

Or have I got that wrong?

Around 20% of Israeli citizens are Palestinian Muslims , Christians, and Druze. They have the same voting rights as other Israelis. Palestinians from East Jerusalem and Syrian Druze in the Golan Heights can vote in municipal elections and have the right to apply for Israeli citizenship which may not be granted.

In the West Bank "Area C" (Oslo accords division) Palestinians have no real rights and are being actively ethnically cleansed by Israeli settlers. Area B of the West Bank is under the control of the Palestinian Authority, who have not held elections since 2016 . The same is true of Area A which is under Palestinian civillian control and joint Palestinian Israeli security control. Obviously, there have been no elections in Gaza since 2006 either. There are no Israeli settlements in Area B and Israelis are forbidden, at least as civillians from entering.

There are around 300,000 Palestinians living in supposedly democratic Lebanon. The vast majority are denied Lebanese citizenship and the rights to vote. They have over the decades lived in squalid poverty; and have in the past been the victim of pogroms by the Israelis and their Lebanese Christian allies and also attacks and seiges by Lebanese Shia paramilitaries.

Most Jordanians self-identify as Palestinians and have the same voting rights as other Jordanians.

Nobody has any civil rights in Syria but the regime in the past has given the Palestinian refugees the same preferential treatment that other minorities have received.

 

[Kevbad the Bad]

Around 20% of Israeli citizens are Palestinian Muslims , Christians, and Druze. They have the same voting rights as other Israelis. Palestinians from East Jerusalem and Syrian Druze in the Golan Heights can vote in municipal elections and have the right to apply for Israeli citizenship which may not be granted.

In the West Bank "Area C" (Oslo accords division) Palestinians have no real rights and are being actively ethnically cleansed by Israeli settlers. Area B of the West Bank is under the control of the Palestinian Authority, who have not held elections since 2016 . The same is true of Area A which is under Palestinian civillian control and joint Palestinian Israeli security control. Obviously, there have been no elections in Gaza since 2006 either.

There are around 300,000 Palestinians living in supposedly democratic Lebanon. The vast majority are denied Lebanese citizenship and the rights to vote. They have over the decades lived in squalid poverty; and have in the past been the victim of pogroms by the Israelis and their Lebanese Christian allies and also attacks and seiges by Lebanese Shia paramilitaries.

Most Jordanians self-identify as Palestinians and have the same voting rights as other Jordanians.

Nobody has any civil rights in Syria but the regime in the past has given the Palestinian refugees the same preferential treatment that other minorities have received.

Don't know what all the fuss is about really.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Around 20% of Israeli citizens are Palestinian Muslims , Christians, and Druze. They have the same voting rights as other Israelis. Palestinians from East Jerusalem and Syrian Druze in the Golan Heights can vote in municipal elections and have the right to apply for Israeli citizenship which may not be granted.

In the West Bank "Area C" (Oslo accords division) Palestinians have no real rights and are being actively ethnically cleansed by Israeli settlers. Area B of the West Bank is under the control of the Palestinian Authority, who have not held elections since 2016 . The same is true of Area A which is under Palestinian civillian control and joint Palestinian Israeli security control. Obviously, there have been no elections in Gaza since 2006 either. There are no Israeli settlements in Area B and Israelis are forbidden, at least as civillians from entering.

There are around 300,000 Palestinians living in supposedly democratic Lebanon. The vast majority are denied Lebanese citizenship and the rights to vote. They have over the decades lived in squalid poverty; and have in the past been the victim of pogroms by the Israelis and their Lebanese Christian allies and also attacks and seiges by Lebanese Shia paramilitaries.

Most Jordanians self-identify as Palestinians and have the same voting rights as other Jordanians.

Nobody has any civil rights in Syria but the regime in the past has given the Palestinian refugees the same preferential treatment that other minorities have received.

Who pushed those Palestinians off their land in the first place? Was it Lebanese or Syrians or Jordanians?

btw the idea that 'Area B' of the West Bank is under the control of the Palestinian Authority is a sick joke, and surely you know this.

 

[Gramsci]

After the signing of the interim accord in 1995, planning powers in areas A and B - which account for approximately forty percent of the area of the West Bank - were transferred to the Palestinian Authority. While the vast majority of the Palestinian population lives in these areas, the vacant land available for construction in dozens of villages and towns across the West Bank is situated on the margins of the communities and defined as area C. The Israeli planning authorities continue to control planning and construction in these areas..

https://www.btselem.org/publications/summaries/200205_land_grab

So basically this is saying whilst it looks like Palestinians are getting good deal they aren't.

Increase of population and they can't build to accommodate this.

This is deliberate.

However gives opportunity for nit picking pro Israel supporters to say what's the problem here?

 

[Gramsci]

Dealing with this appears to be fact of life for anyone who supports Palestinian rights

 

[tim]

Don't know what all the fuss is about really.

In general the "fuss" on thus thread is about Israeli war crimes and slaughter in Gaza and South Lebanon and the pogrom committed by Hamas fighters in October last year. The primary purpose of the post you cited was to remind Gramsci of stuff that he has already been told: Palestinians living within the Green Line have political rights those living in the Occupied territories don't, but some of the latter have more rights than others.

 

[tim]

After the signing of the interim accord in 1995, planning powers in areas A and B - which account for approximately forty percent of the area of the West Bank - were transferred to the Palestinian Authority. While the vast majority of the Palestinian population lives in these areas, the vacant land available for construction in dozens of villages and towns across the West Bank is situated on the margins of the communities and defined as area C. The Israeli planning authorities continue to control planning and construction in these areas..

https://www.btselem.org/publications/summaries/200205_land_grab

So basically this is saying whilst it looks like Palestinians are getting good deal they aren't.

Increase of population and they can't build to accommodate this.

This is deliberate.

However gives opportunity for nit picking pro Israel supporters to say what's the problem here?

The Oslo accords were a shit deal for the Palestinians even if they had worked out as planned. It's shameful that Arafat signed up to them.

Anyway, are there any pro Israel supporters ( isn't that a tautology) posting here.

 

[Gramsci]

The Oslo accords were a shit deal for the Palestinians even if they had worked out as planned. It's shameful that Arafat signed up to them.

Anyway, are there any pro Israel supporters ( isn't that a tautology) posting here.

So I take it you would not object to idea of one state solution. Given the reality on the ground.

That within the ex Palestine Mandate everyone has a right to a vote.

Just asking as your saying your not a pro Israel supporter.

An Israel state like any other modern democracy.

 

[tim]

Who pushed those Palestinians off their land in the first place? Was it Lebanese or Syrians or Jordanians?

btw the idea that 'Area B' of the West Bank is under the control of the Palestinian Authority is a sick joke, and surely you know this.

The Israeli forces, who also beat the British in the a war of liberation 1947, drove Palestinians off their land and into refugee camps, but who drove the Jews out of Europe; and shot and gassed those who didn't move fast enough? Who created the conditions that made emigration to Palestine the safest option for European Jews? And who subsequent to the creation of Israel drove the Mizrahi Jews from their homes in other parts of the Middle East?

 

[Gramsci]

The Oslo accords were a shit deal for the Palestinians even if they had worked out as planned. It's shameful that Arafat signed up to them.

Anyway, are there any pro Israel supporters ( isn't that a tautology) posting here.

Thanks for clarification it was not clear from your original post 15064 where you did not make clear the actual reality as compared to what it sounded like from your post

Which came across to me that it is a good deal and people like me had got it wrong.

In the West Bank "Area C" (Oslo accords division) Palestinians have no real rights and are being actively ethnically cleansed by Israeli settlers. Area B of the West Bank is under the control of the Palestinian Authority, who have not held elections since 2016 . The same is true of Area A which is under Palestinian civillian control and joint Palestinian Israeli security control. Obviously, there have been no elections in Gaza since 2006 either. There are no Israeli settlements in Area B and Israelis are forbidden, at least as civillians from entering.

 

[Kevbad the Bad]

The Israeli forces, who also beat the British in the a war of liberation 1947, drove Palestinians off their land and into refugee camps, but who drove the Jews out of Europe; and shot and gassed those who didn't move fast enough? Who created the conditions that made emigration to Palestine the safest option for European Jews? And who subsequent to the creation of Israel drove the Mizrahi Jews from their homes in other parts of the Middle East?

Not the Palestinians

 

[littlebabyjesus]

The Israeli forces, who also beat the British in the a war of liberation 1947, drove Palestinians off their land and into refugee camps, but who drove the Jews out of Europe; and shot and gassed those who didn't move fast enough? Who created the conditions that made emigration to Palestine the safest option for European Jews? And who subsequent to the creation of Israel drove the Mizrahi Jews from their homes in other parts of the Middle East?

This kind of argument is a denial that Palestinian lives matter.

They must pay for Europe's sins?

 

[Gramsci]

The Israeli forces, who also beat the British in the a war of liberation 1947, drove Palestinians off their land and into refugee camps, but who drove the Jews out of Europe; and shot and gassed those who didn't move fast enough? Who created the conditions that made emigration to Palestine the safest option for European Jews? And who subsequent to the creation of Israel drove the Mizrahi Jews from their homes in other parts of the Middle East?

Just as a point of clarification as you say you are not an Israeli supporter you do object to the later occupation of West Bank in 67 And all the subsequent settlement building?

 

[Gramsci]

The Israeli forces, who also beat the British in the a war of liberation 1947, drove Palestinians off their land and into refugee camps, but who drove the Jews out of Europe; and shot and gassed those who didn't move fast enough? Who created the conditions that made emigration to Palestine the safest option for European Jews? And who subsequent to the creation of Israel drove the Mizrahi Jews from their homes in other parts of the Middle East?

On nitpicking it wasn't the Israeli forces.

It was combination of Haganah / Irgun and Stern gang.

Israel didn't exist when they were fighting the British.

And not Haganah but the others used terrorism to forward their aims.

Later Haganah worked with Irgun and Stern gang to ethnically cleanse land for a Jewish state. Or defend it from Arab countries attack depending on ones point of view.

In actual fact during the what you call the war of liberation there were divisions in Zionist movement about use of terrorism.

Later ex Zionist terrorists became leading lights in Israel state.

Not having a go here but this so called war of liberation was initially an asymmetrical war where one side felt it had to use terrorist methods to achieve its aim of a homeland for Jewish people.

Some might say using terrorism is ok depending on the context. To get what in hindsight are legitimate aims.

 

[tim]

On nitpicking it wasn't the Israeli forces.

It was combination of Haganah / Irgun and Stern gang.

Israel didn't exist when they were fighting the British.

And not Haganah but the others used terrorism to forward their aims.

Later Haganah worked with Irgun and Stern gang to ethnically cleanse land for a Jewish state. Or defend it from Arab countries attack depending on ones point of view.

In actual fact during the what you call the war of liberation there were divisions in Zionist movement about use of terrorism.

Later ex Zionist terrorists became leading lights in Israel state.

Not having a go here but this so called war of liberation was initially an asymmetrical war where one side felt it had to use terrorist methods to achieve its aim of a homeland for Jewish people.

Some might say using terrorism is ok depending on the context. To get what in hindsight are legitimate aims.

It was a war of liberation against the British Empire that led to the emergence of the Israeli state. Both Arabs and Jews, although not together, fought against the British as was seen in the Arab revolt of the late 1930s.

 

[tim]

Just as a point of clarification as you say you are not an Israeli supporter you do object to the later occupation of West Bank in 67 And all the subsequent settlement building?

I don't support the occupation or subjugation of Gaza, the West Bank, East Jerusalem, the Golam Heights or the Shebaa farms, and despite the insinuations and claims of the heresy hunters here nothing I have said on these boards indicates that I do.

 

[Gramsci]

It was a war of liberation against the British Empire that led to the emergence of the Israeli state. Both Arabs and Jews, although not together, fought against the British as was seen in the Arab revolt of the late 1930s.

So I take it you see the Arab revolt as a war of liberation ( I know it failed but if you say the Jews was then in your logic same goes for the Arabs, )

 

[tim]

This kind of argument is a denial that Palestinian lives matter.

They must pay for Europe's sins?

It explains why Israel exists and why 80 years why Israeli Jews most of whom were born in Israel and speak Hebrew as their first language exist. The atrocities of the past which were committed by European regimes in Europe are history. Nothing can be changed about what happened in the 1940s.

In 2024 Palestinian lives matter as much as Israeli lives.

 

[tim]

So I take it you see the Arab revolt as a war of liberation ( I know it failed but if you say the Jews was then in your logic same goes for the Arabs, )

Any revolt against a colonial power is a war of liberation.

 

[Serge Forward]

In 2024 Palestinian lives matter as much as Israeli lives.

To people on this thread maybe. To the Israeli, US, German, British, etc governments, like fuck they do.

 

[tim]

dp

 

[tim]

So I take it you would not object to idea of one state solution. Given the reality on the ground.

That within the ex Palestine Mandate everyone has a right to a vote.

Just asking as your saying your not a pro Israel supporter.

An Israel state like any other modern democracy.

It's not for me to decide what the final political outcome is as I am neither Palestinian nor Israeli. I would hope for either a viable two democratic state outcome or a democratic one state solution.

 

[mojo pixy]

Anyway, are there any pro Israel supporters ( isn't that a tautology) posting here.

Yes it's a tautology. And no, any keen zionist (few as they were) has long been fucked off from this thread.

I reject the idea though that pro Israel and pro Palestine can't both exist at once. I reject the zero-sum version favoured by extremists of every shade. I have and will continue to humanise and contextualise Israel because for a while for me, it was home. For people I love it still is. I obviously wouldn't presume to speak for it or any native of it, but I can at least offer an informed perspective and frankly I think that's necessary.

Anyway, necessary or not, at the minute I'm probably the best you've got

But I'm not arguing every thread of this back and forth, because every thread of it doesn't need arguing, least of all by me. And after all, what's happening in 2024, is happening. Plus you know, I have Syrian friends and I've argued the ins and outs of zionism for years with them. I very much understand how shitty zionist behaviour has been. And yet ... there it is, a wales-sized state of ten million israelis, going exactly nowhere.

So yes, I probably represent something of a pro-israel voice, relatively speaking, here on this thread - but not a pro-war voice, or a pro-settler voice, or a pro-likud voice, or an anti-palestinian voice. My views on this thread fill 371 posts as of this one, which is a lot, for me. I clearly feel strongly on this subject, right? But not once have I posted anything remotely negative about Palestinians, Palestine, or even Hamas.

I mean. Since you asked

 

[ID47]

Any revolt against a colonial power is a war of liberation.

Shame that the colonial power is Israel itself in this case then.

 

[Boris Sprinkler]

Remember. All the books or interpretations of religious texts are prophesising these events as a battle of good and evil. The black and white thinking of fundementalists.
And if we do enter such thought, Western imperialism in pursuit of the dollar and a global enforcement of an unwanted financial system, is not the good side.

 

[teqniq]

Doubtless when the IDF 'look into it', it will be deemed a 'tragic mistake'. That's if they even bother looking into it at this point.

Oxfam condemns killing of water engineers in Gaza | Oxfam International

www.oxfam.org

 

[tim]

n

To people on this thread maybe. To the Israeli, US, German, British, etc governments, like fuck they do.

Or for the Egyptian, or Saudi dictators.