Hamas/Israel conflict: news and discussion

[Rob Ray]

The monster hid with his hostages

The ability to prove he was there at the same time as the hostages through DNA would be some completely mind-bending CSI shit. What the article actually says though, headline aside, is that he was present, at some point, in the same tunnels as the hostages were. Which is still a bit hard to believe as detective work, given the very high likelihood of contamination, but at least vaguely plausible.

 

[Gramsci]

The monster hid with his hostages

A drone found Hamas leader Yahya Sinwar. His DNA showed he hid with hostages

Before Israel killed him, Hamas leader Yahya Sinwar hid with six Israeli hostages, one of them a U.S. citizen.

www.usatoday.com

Did you read the article?

It says this

. Israel believes that around 101 hostages are still in Gaza, alive or dead. Israel's officials stressed Thursday that none were discovered with Sinwar in the building where he died alongside two of his bodyguards.

 

[Gramsci]

TBF I understand why people do it (co-opt words for other horrors such as Nazi, fascist, colonialist or apartheid to describe this) but I really think using them really tends to weaken arguments against what is going on as they usually (as we have seen here) end up in a discussion over definition.

I know it is a problematic word itself, given how it has been used by anti-semites in the past, but to me the only adjective that should be used to describe these crimes is Zionist. That word contains the context by which the crimes are committed, the motivation for them and a description of the politics that supports the crimes. It is also (or at least it should be) separate enough from the other terms that are often used interchangably with it.

They aren't used interchangeably.

I'm not saying you saying this and saw your post got likes, but saying Zionism is somehow outside anything else can lead to view that it's uniquely Jewish phenomenon.

Which it isn't modern Zionism developed in context of 19c nationalism and Imperialism in Europe. As well as anti Semitism.

It's not unique. To say it's got colonialist aspects is to argue this isn't just Jewish thing.

 

[bcuster]

Did you read the article?

It says this

He was hiding with them. The hostages were killed in August

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I'm no expert on sociology. I think I see where your coming from.

Reality isn't just there. Shared understandings which change over time is how we construct our understanding of world around us.

Not having a go at you here but couple of points.

Stepping back isn't the argument here on use of Nazis as a metaphor sign of healthy debate?

As metaphors change over time?

I'd agree with Rob Ray that using Nazi metaphor lays one open to attack.

The other shared understanding that is newer Id say would be the word Apartheid.

It's now used and widely understood as term for a state that practices racist policies against indigenous people.

If I say Apartheid pretty well everyone I know has some understanding of what that means. Even if they don't follow politics.

To say that Israel state is an Apartheid state. That practices Apartheid within pre 67 borders and in Gaza / West Bank to me is much better way to use a term than Nazi.

Apartheid was originally SA term. I think to build on that kind of popular understanding is much better than the frequent ( I see on social media) Israel are like Nazi Germany.

It still winds up the Zionist/ Israel supporters. But whether one says it a settler colonial state, practices Apartheid or is like Nazi Germany they are going to say you can't judge Israel like this.

End result of that is Israeli exceptionalism. It stands outside all these descriptions or metaphors

That I think is something to object to.

Yes I agree re Israeli exceptionalism. To me the comparison with apartheid is very valid for concrete reasons. It also resonates in South Africa itself of course (and Israel was a big friend to Apartheid SA). It is not a coincidence that it is South Africa that has taken Israel to court.

 

[Gramsci]

He was hiding with them. The hostages were killed in August

Article says this:

But the shelling which took his life did take place in the same area of Rafah where the six hostages were killed in August, according to the person familiar with the matter, who spoke on the condition of anonymity. That has led to speculation over whether Sinwar may have been forced to hide above ground since late August after he fled the tunnel complex where the six hostages were held

 

[TopCat]

The fella seemed to have balls and was amongst his fighters rather than in a bunker.

 

[Gramsci]

Hopefully they'll play the cunt's death as the excuse to stop their slaughter. One can naively hope anyway.

Good question.

Look like Biden was.

Back in Israel however, according to this article , both IDf and Netanyahu believe they are on a roll and now want to finish the job.

So not less slaughter but business as usual in Gaza and West Bank

Yahya Sinwar's killing will complicate Israel's war on Gaza, not end it

Israeli analysts say a ceasefire in Gaza is now further out of reach while families of Israeli captives in enclave fear for their safety

www.middleeasteye.net

For Netanyahu personally an endless war keeps him in power.

 

[agricola]

Ok in that case what is the description of the politics of Zionism?

At its basic level nowadays? I'd say the belief in the maintenance of, if not the expansion of, the Israeli state as it has existed and operated post-1948 (as opposed to the earlier Zionism that was aimed at the establishment of a state) and the opposition to anyone who seeks to resolve the problems that the existence of that state in that form creates, problems which allow the state to behave in the way that it does.

 

[little_legs]

The fella seemed to have balls and was amongst his fighters rather than in a bunker.

Infinitely braver than every fascist IDF nazi who has taken part in the genocide

 

[Petcha]

The fella seemed to have balls and was amongst his fighters rather than in a bunker.

Seriously? I mean hate the illegal occupation of Gaza and the West Bank. But ordering the cutting the heads off babies and raping young girls.... naaaaaah.... that's not 'having balls'

Anyway, I think Netanyahu is actually a little pissed off about this chance 'assassination'. His war was going so well. Now he's got no excuse to still be bombing away to his heart's delight. This wasn't in the game plan.

 

[Gramsci]

The ex head of Labour Friends of Israel. Full on Zionist now living in Israel.

Palestinians are making it all up. Is his line on the video footage of deaths like that in North Gaza.

 

[mojo pixy]

Oh that guy, he's an absolute shit.

 

[Duncan2]

"Pallywood" he said?

 

[Gramsci]

How did he get to be head of Labour Friends of Israel?

 

[Rob Ray]

The body of Hamas leader Yahya Sinwar could be used as a “bargaining chip” in exchange for the release of Israeli hostages being held in Gaza, CNN is reporting, citing Israeli sources.

(via the Graun)

Seriously though can you imagine if Hamas had succeeded in carrying out the extrajudicial killing of Netanyahu, then threatened to hide his corpse unless they got concessions? How it'd be reported?

 

[Larry O'Hara]

Seriously? I mean hate the illegal occupation of Gaza and the West Bank. But ordering the cutting the heads off babies and raping young girls.... naaaaaah.... that's not 'having balls'

Anyway, I think Netanyahu is actually a little pissed off about this chance 'assassination'. His war was going so well. Now he's got no excuse to still be bombing away to his heart's delight. This wasn't in the game plan.

Cutting the heads of babies/rape: have I wandered into an IDF Disinformation Class?

 

[Larry O'Hara]

(via the Graun)

Seriously though can you imagine if Hamas had succeeded in carrying out the extrajudicial killing of Netanyahu, then threatened to hide his corpse unless they got concessions? How it'd be reported?

This is right: the way the Western politicos are talking of this is the exact opposite of what they would say if the boot was on the other foot: eg 9/11.

 

[yield]

Seriously? I mean hate the illegal occupation of Gaza and the West Bank. But ordering the cutting the heads off babies and raping young girls.... naaaaaah.... that's not 'having balls'

What’s known about reports that Hamas ‘beheaded babies’

Editor’s note: This story contains references and links to graphic images and videos. The story is a revised version of

www.politifact.com

Unpacking the Claim That UN Found 'No Proof' of Sexual Violence Committed by Hamas in Oct. 7 Attack

The Israeli government refused to cooperate with the U.N. Human Rights Commission's inquiry.

www.snopes.com

How 2 debunked accounts of sexual violence on Oct. 7 fueled a global dispute over Israel-Hamas war

The United Nations and other organizations have presented credible evidence that Hamas militants committed sexual assault during their Oct. 7 attack in southern Israel.

apnews.com

 

[littlebabyjesus]

After flirting with a more nuanced position , bbc world service has fallen back to uncritically repeating Israeli propaganda.

 

[tim]

.

The fella seemed to have balls and was amongst his fighters rather than in a bunker.

Not living in safety in Qatar like most if the Hamas hierarchy.

 

[little_legs]

I dont think it's constructive at all. Yes it's terrible what Israel is doing but they're in no way comparable to what the Nazis did.. unless you're saying the early years. But even then there arent pogroms being organised against Israeli Arabs in Israel. They are behaving like an imperialist bully and oppressor and maybe genocidal actions is arguable but theyre not running death camps and invading all the other arab countries looking for living space. I don't really see how the Nazi comparison is useful personally, especially given that Israel is nominally a Jewish state.

Maybe genocidal actions is arguable
Are you kidding?

They're not running death camps
They don't need to build Auschwitz, what they're doing now works just fine. Gaza is already inescapable and deadly enough as it is with a contained border that Israel controls. If bound Palestinians being executed and their bodies thrown into mass graves around the hospitals they once worked and sheltered in does not come close to a Nazi style death camp, I don't know what does.

 

[Boris Sprinkler]

Netanyahu’s residence has been hit by a drone attack. Unfortunately he wasn’t there he was probably hiding in the networks of tunnels underneath Israel.

Israel says Hezbollah drone hits Netanyahu’s house in Caesarea

Attack on one of Netanyahu’s houses comes after Israeli attacks on refugee camps in Gaza kill more than 44 Palestinians.

www.aljazeera.com

 

[TopCat]

Netanyahu’s residence has been hit by a drone attack. Unfortunately he wasn’t there he was probably hiding in the networks of tunnels underneath Israel.

Israel says Hezbollah drone hits Netanyahu’s house in Caesarea

Attack on one of Netanyahu’s houses comes after Israeli attacks on refugee camps in Gaza kill more than 44 Palestinians.

www.aljazeera.com

Top work

 

[tim]

(via the Graun)

Seriously though can you imagine if Hamas had succeeded in carrying out the extrajudicial killing of Netanyahu, then threatened to hide his corpse unless they got concessions? How it'd be reported?

The Israelis have released prisoners in exchange for the corpses of Israeli soldiers several times in the past, so it is a practice with a precedent.

Here is how it was reported in the NYT on one such occasion

Israel Agrees to Exchange Prisoners for Dead Soldiers (Published 2008)

After a wrenching national debate, the Israeli cabinet voted to trade a Lebanese murderer for the bodies of two Israeli soldiers.

www.nytimes.com

 

[TopCat]

The Israelis have released prisoners in exchange for the corpses of Israeli soldiers several times in the past, so it is
a a practice with a precedent.

Here is how it was reported in the NYT on one such occasion

Israel Agrees to Exchange Prisoners for Dead Soldiers (Published 2008)

After a wrenching national debate, the Israeli cabinet voted to trade a Lebanese murderer for the bodies of two Israeli soldiers.

www.nytimes.com

The Lebanese was a murderer. The Israelis soldiers. Hoho.

 

[tim]

Maybe genocidal actions is arguable
Are you kidding?

They're not running death camps
They don't need to build Auschwitz, what they're doing now works just fine. Gaza is already inescapable and deadly enough as it is with a contained border that Israel controls. If bound Palestinians being executed and their bodies thrown into mass graves around the hospitals they once worked and sheltered in does not come close to a Nazi style death camp, I don't know what does.

More of Jews the are Nazis rhetoric that reflects either an ignorance or indiference to what actually happened under the Third Reich. The death camps, such as Auschwitz 2, were designed for the systematic industrialised murder of Jews; Roma and Sinti; and others

Gaza is a territory under brutal Israeli seige and whilst the they have no compunction about civillian deaths arrising from that seige there is no systematic attempt to exploit and then murder all Gazans. There are no death ramps and no selection of those to be gassed and those to be worked to death.

In reality the IDF have limited control on the ground. They wouldn't have bombing and shooting for over a year if they had. Sinyar was killed in an Israeli attack on suspected Hamas fighters, not because they had specific information on his location. If you want a contemporary comparison, look at the civillian "collateral damage" in the war and seiges in Ukraine or the seige of Aleppo.

The Russian, Syrian, and Israeli regimes are vile but none of them operate "Nazi death camps".

What the death camps were actually like: https://www.auschwitz.org/en/history/auschwitz-ii/

 

[tim]

The Lebanese was a murderer. The Israelis soldiers. Hoho.

He was a Palestinian Liberation Front fighter and Hezbollah member convicted of killing two Israeli cops and two civilians including a four year old child during an attack on Israel. He claimed that the two civillians were killed by Israeli crossfire.

He was subsequently killed in an Israeli missile attack on an alleged Hezbollah office.

Freed prisoner Samir Kuntar assassinated by Israeli airstrike in Syria

Samir Kuntar, Lebanese Arab former prisoner in Israeli jails, was assassinated late night Saturday, 19 December, in Syria by an Israeli military airstrike. Kuntar spent nearly thirty years in Israe…

samidoun.net

 

[tim]

Infinitely braver than every fascist IDF nazi who has taken part in the genocide

He organised the genocidal pogrom of October last year. How is murdering Israeli citizens or in his case orchestrating the murder of Israeli citizens a braver act than murdering Palestinian civillians?

And given your penchant for the term were those Hamas fighters and their commanders also Nazis? Or, do you think only Israelis can be Nazis?

 

[Lurdan]

More of Jews the are Nazis rhetoric that reflects either an ignorance or indiference to what actually happened under the Third Reich. The death camps, such as Auschwitz 2, were designed for the systematic industrialised murder of Jews; Roma and Sinti; and others

Gaza is a territory under brutal Israeli seige and whilst the they have no compunction about civillian deaths arrising from that seige there is no systematic attempt to exploit and then murder all Gazans. There are no death ramps and no selection of those to be gassed and those to be worked to death.

In reality the IDF have limited control on the ground. They wouldn't have bombing and shooting for over a year if they had. Sinyar was killed in an Israeli attack on suspected Hamas fighters, not because they had specific information on his location. If you want a contemporary comparison, look at the civillian "collateral damage" in the war and seiges in Ukraine or the seige of Aleppo.

The Russian, Syrian, and Israeli regimes are vile but none of them operate "Nazi death camps".

What the death camps were actually like: https://www.auschwitz.org/en/history/auschwitz-ii/

Not a very sensible comparison indeed. A more interesting comparison might be with the activities of the Einsatzgruppen but I'm not convinced about that either. To me a closer resemblance would be to the actions of US and South Vietnamese troops in South Vietnam. ('If it moves it may be Viet Cong'). If the intent of the IDF is genocidal then it is a slow genocide, whatever the murderous racist malice exhibited by some IDF troops.