Hamas/Israel conflict: news and discussion

[Graymalkin]

Could this be a moment when the security through grinding Palestine and technology line loses some prestige in Israel and a political solution gets back on the agenda? Realise it doesn't look likely now but as the dust settles and netanyahu pays the price for his failure?

This is my thinking too. The only rationale can come up with for why Hamas would launch such an obviously futile attack is if it's meant to be their Tett offensive. Proving that the conflict is unwinnable on both sides is the only strategic card they have.

 

[cupid_stunt]

Until I get independent assessment of all these so called "butchering" by Hamas, I don't believe a word of it coming from Israeli government.

You don't think this, from a respected French journalist, is likely to be true?

<Translated from the tweet Kid_Eternity posted, last post on page 44.>

That's it, the information is out. It's so macabre that no one wanted to give it away before having 100% confirmation.

Infants and children under 2 years old were beheaded by Hamas in the Kibbutz of Kfar Aza. It is a horror, a massacre.

For those asking for the source. They are multiple: Israeli army, internal intelligence service and atrocious images which reached me and which I was able to cross-check. But the best source remains this: courageous journalists from the foreign press who were able to see / agreed to see with their own eyes the bodies in Kfar Aza.

 

[kebabking]

CNN journalist has also reported that it's true - that he himself has seen the bodies.

 

[Spymaster]

I think what really pisses me off now is the international community and how it hasn't forced the two sides into a solution that respects the security and dignity of both.

Because there isn't one that either side will respect.

There are elements in both camps that want different things. It's not a simple case of Israelis want this, Palestinians want that, let's find a compromise.

 

[Johnny Vodka]

I wasn't saying that I thought they should have. I was just applying that thinking to somewhere nearer home and wondering how well that would have gone down. Not well I think and that's before you start exploring what you mean by "international community".

As others have said, part of finding a solution is being able to define the problem. If people can't recognise the injustices carried out against the Palestinians in the past, I can't see how they can 'heal' and move forward. In extreme situations, I'm not against a neutral force going in to ensure both sides behave - and to me that could mean (for example) stopping Israel from expanding settlements illegally, by physical force if necessary. That would never happen, I know, but what's the point of international law if it can't be upheld?

 

[Magnus McGinty]

Interesting split screen on Al-Jazeera. 3-way. Biden talking about full backing for Israel (literally, we have your back) against these 'atrocities' as screen 2 shows live missiles exploding in Gaza and screen 3 shows Palestinian babies being loaded into morgues.

Tell them they need to use spoiler tags.

 

[planetgeli]

I know, but what's the point of international law if it can't be upheld?

Because you have to sign up for it. Israel won't (the International Criminal Court).

 

[Johnny Vodka]

Anyway, I know it's all pie in the sky. But the point is "just leaving them to it" doesn't seem to be working and has just lead to the loss of more and more innocent life. I don't even get the impression there's an appetite to sort it out. Almost as if there's the acceptance internationally that this is the status quo and it is what it is.

 

[agricola]

Still at the phase where people defend beheading babies

Sorry if this has already been announced, but who are these foreign journalists she cites as sources?

There are a lot of reports (there was one in the Daily Mail) that some other people have seen this, but so far I can't find any eyewitness report of a journalist who has said they were there and this is what they saw. I've seen earlier reports today (from another settlement) where reporters and military personnel said they had seen evidence of beheadings and had found murdered kids, so it seems a bit odd that (so far at least) noone has gone on the record yet.

 

[planetgeli]

Biden assuring Israel they will never let them run out of military assets (LOL, as if they would fighting a population contained within 30 miles by 7 miles).

 

[Aladdin]

Worth a watch. Gabor Maté, holocaust surviver, describes the Palestinian situation as "the longest ethnic cleansing operation of the 20th and 21st centuries."

 

[cupid_stunt]

Sorry if this has already been announced, but who are these foreign journalists she cites as sources?

There are a lot of reports (there was one in the Daily Mail) that some other people have seen this, but so far I can't find any eyewitness report of a journalist who has said they were there and this is what they saw. I've seen earlier reports today (from another settlement) where reporters and military personnel said they had seen evidence of beheadings and had found murdered kids, so it seems a bit odd that (so far at least) noone has gone on the record yet.

How about the CNN reporter, that KK posted about?

CNN journalist has also reported that it's true - that he himself has seen the bodies.

 

[Duncan2]

Because you have to sign up for it. Israel won't (the International Criminal Court).

half the 2.3 million in Gaza are reportedly children.It really is tragic that there is no international body whether that be the UN or other organisation that can at least make an attempt to stop the mass deaths that seem pretty much an inevitability at this point.Netanyahu didn't look to me to be kidding when he said he was going "to change the Middle East for good."It's his shout?

 

[agricola]

How about the CNN reporter, that KK posted about?

Nic Robertson? He has certainly reported some absolutely horrific things but he hasn't said (at least in the clips I've seen) what is claimed he said.



Sorry if this sounds a ridiculous point, but I am a bit confused why beheaded babies is somehow more shocking to report than murdered babies is.

 

[WhyLikeThis]

According to some it doesn't matter what happened anyway, it's all Palestinian resistance and we shouldn't comment.

Absolutely fucking poisonous politics.

Who are these “some”?

 

[Magnus McGinty]

Nic Robertson? He has certainly reported some absolutely horrific things but he hasn't said (at least in the clips I've seen) what is claimed he said.



Sorry if this sounds a ridiculous point, but I am a bit confused why beheaded babies is somehow more shocking to report than murdered babies is.

Murdered is open to interpretation. Beheaded isn’t.

 

[Ax^]

Murdered is open to interpretation. Beheaded isn’t.

ok little bit more explanation

dead baby vs beheaded baby?

same outcome

robinson only talks about cuts not beheadings?

 

[Cid]

You mean, like they should have done with Ireland?

Force, I dunno, but honestly it would probably be a start if there were a US president willing to visit Gaza.

<not an endorsement of Clinton, who is also an absolute piece of shit>

 

[Magnus McGinty]

ok little bit more explanation

dead baby vs beheaded baby?

same outcome

robinson only talks about cuts not beheadings?

I didn’t watch the clip. Which perhaps I should have.

 

[planetgeli]

half the 2.3 million in Gaza are reportedly children.It really is tragic that there is no international body whether that be the UN or other organisation that can at least make an attempt to stop the mass deaths that seem pretty much an inevitability at this point.Netanyahu didn't look to me to be kidding when he said he was going "to change the Middle East for good."It's his shout?

50% under 15. Future terrorists. Is his shout.

 

[LDC]

Nic Robertson? He has certainly reported some absolutely horrific things but he hasn't said (at least in the clips I've seen) what is claimed he said.



Sorry if this sounds a ridiculous point, but I am a bit confused why beheaded babies is somehow more shocking to report than murdered babies is.

Murdered could be caught in the firefight and died but not specifically targeted, beheaded is obviously calculated and designed to terrorise and with echoes of IS.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

Murdered could be caught in the firefight and died but not specifically targeted, beheaded is obviously calculated and designed to terrorise and with echoes of IS.

Which was what I was saying. But I didn’t watch the clip.

 

[Ax^]

the clip above is just reporting not clips of the incident


would not make any one watch shit like that


go to the right wing twister if you suddenly want to see a 360 turn of right wingers worrying about jewish people
easily found with a little digging on twitter

 

[Magnus McGinty]

the clip above is just reporting not clips of the incident


would not make any one watch shit like that


go to the right wing twister if you suddenly want to see a 360 turn of right wingers worrying about jewish people
easily found with a little digging on twitter

If I torched a house like Mick Phillpot and kids burnt to death It’s murder. But I could argue I just wanted to burn the house down. Beheading is unambiguous.

 

[Ax^]

walk in shoot a bunch of people and slitting the throats of a bunch of people is not ambiguous

but you could twist it to say beheadings


head cuts is an ambiguous term

 

[Ax^]

regardless let target a civilian population because these people are animals

 

[Magnus McGinty]

walk in shoot a bunch of people and slitting the throats of a bunch of people is not ambiguous

but you could twist it to say beheadings


head cuts is an ambiguous term

I haven’t seen the clip. I was responding to what someone asked as an aside to the clip. No point in arguing about two separate things.

 

[Ax^]

I haven’t seen the clip. I was responding to what someone asked as an aside to the clip. No point in arguing about two separate things.

did you not join urban earlier than me

why turn against the spirit of the politics forums

 

[Magnus McGinty]

did you not join urban earlier than me

I did. And getting wires crossed was tedious then too.

 

[WhyLikeThis]

There is no singular 'Palestinian cause', any more than there's other single national/ethnic/etc. cause. There's a struggle with different factions with different politics and aims going on, and in the case of the Palestinian struggle most of the moderates and more politically OK elements have been killed, often by other Palestinian factions. You're not supporting Palestinians, you're supporting Hamas.

Absolute horseshit. I’ve spent extended time in Palestine and political discourse is diverse as are political organisations. Many Palestinians are not particularly religious and, it may come as a shock to you, not even Muslim. Your attempt to dehumanise an entire people as Hamas has more than a whiff of sketchiness about it.