Hamas/Israel conflict: news and discussion

[The39thStep]

I remember a pro-Palestine group whose SM content was horrific. I only started slating them when they went full on anti-Semitic with proper Jewish caricatures of hooked nosed cheaters and snakes wrapped around the world. There’s some fucking odd parts of the left.

I'm sure there are however you don't have to be on the left to be pro-Palestinian do you ?

 

[Magnus McGinty]

I'm sure there are however you don't have to be on the left to be pro-Palestinian do you ?

Good point. I’m sure some weren’t. But it had the usual hangers on.

 

[Johnny Vodka]

More good words coming out of Scotland. The SNP/Greens get the tone right on a lot of issues in a way that eludes the Tories/Labour and makes me proud to be Scottish (and generally annoys the gammons).

View attachment 394959

By contrast.

 

[CNT36]

Where I believe we're at.

Israel's image as an invincible military power has taken a hammering. The psychological advantage Israel had has been lost.

Arabs throughout MENA are spontaneously rallying to the Palestinian cause against the normalising desires of the Arab rulers - yes this war may actually turn into class war (of sorts) in the broader region.

Israel (the Israeli government but also frankly a governing class with deep and broad popular support visa vie Palestinians) may be looking to rescue hostages and retaliate but more than anything they are determined to regain that psychological advantage. At an instinctive level they are terrified they look weak.

There will not be enough Palestinian corpses to regain that psychological advantage.

The Palestinian cause is urgent.

Regev on the wireless earlier saying essentially that Israel needs to look hard. Iran are watching. Mustn't show weakness. Gave the impression the hostages are a pretty low priority.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

Good point. I’m sure some weren’t. But it had the usual hangers on.

And was promoted as anti-racist and anti-fascist rather than single issue.

 

[chilango]

I'm sure there are however you don't have to be on the left to be pro-Palestinian do you ?

I remember in the early 90s (some of) the fash" pursued a vigorous pro-Palestine stickering campaign.

*It might have been the ITP but my memory is not what it was

 

[CNT36]

I remember in the early 90s (some of) the fash" pursued a vigorous pro-Palestine stickering campaign.

*It might have been the ITP but my memory is not what it was

I've had right wing fucks pretend to give a shit about the Palestinians before letting me know the problem is the Jews.

 

[Elpenor]

I'm going to disagree with this, although I - obviously - understand how grim it is, and the effect it can have on the viewer.

For me, to refuse to watch someone's pain, or fear, or death is to deny their humanity to some extent. I may not be able to bring them confort, but I can bare witness to their suffering, and the value of their life as a life. It is - to me - to turn aside. It's to say 'this is to horrible to watch', while that person doesn't watch it, but endures it.

I'm not going to deny the effect it has on other people who think differently, and it's just my personal view - but refusing to watch this stuff sits uncomfortably with me.

I would say choosing not to watch, not refusing to watch. I do understand what you mean though.

 

[chilango]

I've had right wing fucks pretend to give a shit about the Palestinians before letting me know the problem is the Jews.

Obviously anti-Semitism is/was a major attraction, but some of the fash have a had a genuine interest in "national liberation" movements.

 

[Orang Utan]

I'm going to disagree with this, although I - obviously - understand how grim it is, and the effect it can have on the viewer.

For me, to refuse to watch someone's pain, or fear, or death is to deny their humanity to some extent. I may not be able to bring them confort, but I can bare witness to their suffering, and the value of their life as a life. It is - to me - to turn aside. It's to say 'this is to horrible to watch', while that person doesn't watch it, but endures it.

I'm not going to deny the effect it has on other people who think differently, and it's just my personal view - but refusing to watch this stuff sits uncomfortably with me.

I don’t disagree with that at all. I can watch some of this stuff if I’ve steeled myself for it, but don’t like being caught unawares.
There’s a documentary called For Sama, about a Syrian family’s experiences being bombarded by Assad’s troops in Aleppo. It contains many distressing scenes of injuries and images of dead bodies including children, and scenes of children (and adults) crying in fear and confusion. It is very difficult to watch but, for the reasons you state, I’m glad I saw the film (twice as it happens). But I knew what I was in for when I watched it.

 

[Pickman's model]

It will have had a lot more planning than the rave, who clearly didn’t consider it a security risk.

Think they only anticipated cheapskates climbing their fence

 

[LDC]

Where I believe we're at.

Israel's image as an invincible military power has taken a hammering. The psychological advantage Israel had has been lost.

Arabs throughout MENA are spontaneously rallying to the Palestinian cause against the normalising desires of the Arab rulers - yes this war may actually turn into class war (of sorts) in the broader region.

Israel (the Israeli government but also frankly a governing class with deep and broad popular support visa vie Palestinians) may be looking to rescue hostages and retaliate but more than anything they are determined to regain that psychological advantage. At an instinctive level they are terrified they look weak.

There will not be enough Palestinian corpses to regain that psychological advantage.

The Palestinian cause is urgent.

There is no singular 'Palestinian cause', any more than there's other single national/ethnic/etc. cause. There's a struggle with different factions with different politics and aims going on, and in the case of the Palestinian struggle most of the moderates and more politically OK elements have been killed, often by other Palestinian factions. You're not supporting Palestinians, you're supporting Hamas.

It's really politically questionable reducing it to such, ironically done by plenty on the left that rail against identity politics and nationalism elsewhere, yet on this issue it seemingly all fine. No criticism of this unless you're Palestinian logically means no criticism of anything unless you 'belong' to that group. French fascists think they're oppressed by a growing Muslim population? Can't say anything unless you're French, how dare you! Absolutely dire state of things.

 

[kebabking]

Do you watch footage of dead babies in Gaza?

I have seen footage of dead children in Gaza yes - I saw a film, certainty indicating that it was in Gaza, in the last day of a man holding a dead child. He was singing to her through wracking sobs, and brushing her hair with his hands. They were covered in her blood, and he used the backs of his hands, which were cleaner, with absolute tenderness.

 

[chilango]

I have seen footage of dead children in Gaza yes - I saw a film, certainty indicating that it was in Gaza, in the last day of a man holding a dead child. He was singing to her through wracking sobs, and brushing her hair with his hands. They were covered in her blood, and he used the backs of his hands, which were cleaner, with absolute tenderness.

I saw that footage. It triggered a pretty sharp decilne in my mh today. As, perhaps, it should.

 

[Kid_Eternity]

Elijah Wood states the obvious that too many fail to grasp.

 

[Pickman's model]

There is no singular 'Palestinian cause', any more than there's other single national/ethnic/etc. cause. There's a struggle with different factions with different politics and aims going on, and in the case of the Palestinian struggle most of the moderates and more politically OK elements have been killed, often by their own side. You're not supporting Palestinians, you're supporting Hamas.

It's really politically questionable reducing it to such, ironically done by plenty on the left that rail against identity politics and nationalism elsewhere, yet on this issue it seemingly all fine. No criticism of this unless you're Palestinian logically means no criticism of anything unless you 'belong' to that group. French fascists think they're oppressed by a growing Muslim population? Can't say anything unless you're French, how dare you! Absolutely dire state of things.

The thing is the opening move in this episode, as it were, of a long-running series had hamas play the leading role. But now the dynamic has changed as the zionists target everyone living in gaza. Do you withhold sympathy, solidarity and support at this point?

 

[Kid_Eternity]

I think that the word you need is "atrocity." Blowing up an electricity pylon is terrorism, but it is not an atrocity.

Killing people at a party is terrorism.

 

[LDC]

The thing is the opening move in this episode, as it were, of a long-running series had hamas play the leading role. But now the dynamic has changed as the zionists target everyone living in gaza. Do you withhold sympathy, solidarity and support at this point?

In think my position is completely worthless, but at least it's not throwing political criticism and principles out of the window which is arguably damaging to a wider political project?

 

[Pickman's model]

Elijah Wood states the obvious that too many fail to grasp.

For me the persecution of Jews isn't the current narrative. You've a mighty fuck-off state which has called up 300,000 reservists to add to their already powerful army, air force and navy. These aren't the power dynamics of a minority population at risk from a Russian or German government. The current situation is of a vicious state which has been humiliated deciding to end the lives of thousands of people in, for want of a better term, a ghetto.

 

[The39thStep]

Elijah Wood states the obvious that too many fail to grasp.

Without stating the obvious are you going to reply about what you think the next steps to peace might be or are we still at the 'this is terrorism' stage ?

 

[toblerone3]

It's deeply regrettable

 

[Knotted]

There is no singular 'Palestinian cause', any more than there's other single national/ethnic/etc. cause. There's a struggle with different factions with different politics and aims going on, and in the case of the Palestinian struggle most of the moderates and more politically OK elements have been killed, often by other Palestinian factions. You're not supporting Palestinians, you're supporting Hamas.

It's really politically questionable reducing it to such, ironically done by plenty on the left that rail against identity politics and nationalism elsewhere, yet on this issue it seemingly all fine. No criticism of this unless you're Palestinian logically means no criticism of anything unless you 'belong' to that group. French fascists think they're oppressed by a growing Muslim population? Can't say anything unless you're French, how dare you! Absolutely dire state of things.

I see it as more as a fight for survival right now and I don't think the politics of the different factions matters much in the immediate. The reason I'm saying listen to Palestinians and Gazans in particular is because the situation is not a standard one that allows the application of usual leftwing templates.

 

[Pickman's model]

I see it as more as a fight for survival right now and I don't think the politics of the different factions matters much in the immediate. The reason I'm saying listen to Palestinians and Gazans in particular is because the situation is not a standard one that allows the application of usual leftwing templates.

I agree we have to listen to Palestinian voices, not least because so many are about to be permanently silenced. Regardless of what we think about what's been done in their name, our vile government has chucked its hat in the ring and unless we stand up and be counted we're all complicit in the horror of the zionist reaction.

 

[planetgeli]

Killing people at a party is terrorism.

So all the Palestinians have to do is whack on a bit of psy-trance and we can call what Israel is doing terrorism too?

 

[cesare]

I have seen footage of dead children in Gaza yes - I saw a film, certainty indicating that it was in Gaza, in the last day of a man holding a dead child. He was singing to her through wracking sobs, and brushing her hair with his hands. They were covered in her blood, and he used the backs of his hands, which were cleaner, with absolute tenderness.

Your articulate descriptiveness will perhaps provoke a similar response for non-visual.people.

 

[kebabking]

Terrorism isn't just 'bad shit', it's bad shit done, and in a way, and publicised in a way, to produce a wider political effect on the living.

Atrocity, or whatever word you choose you use, is the act itself.

 

[Pickman's model]

Terrorism isn't just 'bad shit', it's bad shit done, and in a way, and publicised in a way, to produce a wider political effect on the living.

Atrocity, or whatever word you choose you use, is the act itself.

I agree with Bob Black, who described soldiers as terrorists with the right credentials. E2a the foul Netanyahu has on your terms just said he's a terrorist with his shit about actions that will reverberate down the generations

 

[Ax^]

netanyahu the war criminal is a more apt term

he posted a video of his saying he going to commit war crimes

but the west leaders will still line up to support him

 

[Kid_Eternity]

Without stating the obvious are you going to reply about what you think the next steps to peace might be or are we still at the 'this is terrorism' stage ?

Still at the phase where people defend beheading babies

 

[cesare]

Jfc