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Hamas/Israel conflict: news and discussion

littlebabyjesus said:
In my angrier moments over the last few months, I have thought that from a Palestinian perspective, why shouldn't they think that the Israelis should fuck off back where they came from? Why should Europe's crimes be their problem? But you're right, of course, that that is a non-starter. In which case, the question becomes: how to make amends?
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I've absolutely thought this myself.

But yes, I think Israel's only future is to become more inclusive and that means obviously less exclusively Jewish, but I think it's the only way to go. I often say, Israel, of itself, is an amazing acheivement of a country with, on the whole, a very good quality of life massive innovation, amazing culture (and I'm sure Palestine has those latter two as well that could benefit from Israeli financial resources). And the Palestinian people should be able to share in this but whether they'd want to after all that has happened is another question and a fair one.

You can look to Germany as a place that I think has done really well in facing up to its wrongs and not hiding from them, and seeking a path to prevent Nazism happening again. But of course there are still some Jews down to my generation who will never go to Germany or have anything to do with anything German.
 
There's a line of Black American thought isn't there that holds Black people can't be racist due to the power imbalances there. I think it's overreaching tbh, and overly US centred, but I think that bringing in the structural nature of it and the power imbalances is important. Through that lens Cloo 's elderly Israeli who hates Germans might be prejudiced but they're not meaningfully racist. The relationship between the Israeli state and the Palestinians though - you couldn't get much more so.
 
two sheds said:
I hope that's not my new batteries on there :mad:
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No. Consumer goods are going other routes.
You do know the ships that are being attacked are carrying weapons? The excuse the US used to intervene with the houthis was because they attacked two MLL ships (Maersk Line Limited). Maersk Line Limited are a subsidiary under A.P.Møller Mærsk. A Danish shipping company.
Maersk Line Limited’s sole customer is the US military. Any vessel sailing under MLL is almost certainly muderous in operation. My guess they have tried hiding operations by switching operator in that region.
“
Readjusts tinfoil hat”
 
littlebabyjesus said:
I think that's a very good way of looking at it. They may not be Jews any more, having mostly converted to a religion that didn't exist 2,000 years ago, but Egyptians are still the people of the Pharaohs despite now being majority Muslim. They still see that as part of their heritage.

Gramsci has linked before on this thread to quotes from figures in Zionist movements of the 20s and 30s who wanted to make common cause with Palestinians. I think my question now would be to ask: is that aspiration still a viable one? Can a Jewish homeland be reimagined as somewhere that is inclusive rather than exclusive, for all the people who call the area home, regardless of their current religion or cultural traditions? (Particularly the case, perhaps, given that different groups of Jewish Israelis themselves have very different cultural traditions.)

In my angrier moments over the last few months, I have thought that from a Palestinian perspective, why shouldn't they think that the Israelis should fuck off back where they came from? Why should Europe's crimes be their problem? But you're right, of course, that that is a non-starter. In which case, the question becomes: how to make amends?
Click to expand...

Only very small parts of those going to Palestine in early days wanted to make common cause with Palestinians.

Labour Zionism and the Histradrut opposed this. And once State of Israel was founded Labour Zionism was the mainstream. The Zionist Union the Histradrut opposed Jewish business employing Arabs for example. Labour Zionism which was the mainstream until late 60s was socialist. But not for Palestinians.

Someone like Moshe Machover ( Israeli born anti Zionist Jewish Marxist) is heir of this tradition. Of opposing Labour Zionism. They lost. People like him ended up leaving. Going to this country. Where dissident Israelis like him brought a new perspective on Israel to the left in UK.

Any Israeli born Jew who looks at the history of his own country and does not like it has few options.

Ilan Pappe career in academia basically was going no where due to his views on researching his own countries history.

Now a Professor of History in this country.

What I did do was a little review on is this short interesting book on a "post" Zionist Israel that argues for a different kind of Zionism.

www.penguinrandomhouse.com

Haifa Republic: A Democratic Future for Israel by Omri Boehm: 9781681373935 | PenguinRandomHouse.com: Books

A provocative argument for a new way of seeing Israel, Zionism, and the two-state solution. Haifa Republic: A Democratic Future for Israel is an urgent wake-up call. The philosopher Omri Boehm argues...
www.penguinrandomhouse.com www.penguinrandomhouse.com

Have my issues with it but it puts a good case from a liberal Zionist perspective by an Isreali

Here is the post.

Post in thread 'Hamas/Israel conflict: news and discussion' Hamas/Israel conflict: news and discussion

And

Post in thread 'Hamas/Israel conflict: news and discussion' Hamas/Israel conflict: news and discussion

Cloo might be interested in this book
 
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Boris Sprinkler said:
No. Consumer goods are going other routes.
You do know the ships that are being attacked are carrying weapons? The excuse the US used to intervene with the houthis was because they attacked two MLL ships (Maersk Line Limited). Maersk Line Limited are a subsidiary under A.P.Møller Mærsk. A Danish shipping company.
Maersk Line Limited’s sole customer is the US military. Any vessel sailing under MLL is almost certainly muderous in operation. My guess they have tried hiding operations by switching operator in that region.
“
Readjusts tinfoil hat”
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Has nobody said this is nonsense yet?
 
Cloo said:
I was just saying to him that yes, the idea that Jews could commit genocide is a profoundly offensive one. But we shouldn't be so caught up in how offensive it is as a concept not to consider the possibility of it being true.
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I do not know if you saw this article in Haaretz but it goes into this.

Post in thread 'Hamas/Israel conflict: news and discussion' Hamas/Israel conflict: news and discussion

Looking at the way history of Holocaust has been researched and seen it puts case that the lesson of the Holocaust is that given certain circumstances any otherwise ordinary person can end up participating in Genocide.
 
Been busy at work today.

The issue of Holocaust / Israel/ The ongoing case at ICJ.

Looking at this:

en.m.wikipedia.org

Palestinian genocide accusation - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org en.m.wikipedia.org

I cannot help feeling that some of this argument about Israel being accused of Genocide means what happened gets lost.

Having read a lot of the history quite frankly I do not have anything good to say about Zionism.

The sooner Zionism is gone the better.

One can argue whether what is happening now and what has happened in this past is ethnic cleansing or genocide.

Its definitely ethnic cleansing

Listen to any Palestinian or someone of Palestinian descent and they have nothing positive to say about Israel.

Was listening to interview on Novara media. Journalist from middle class Gaza family. Now living here. Basically secular "moderate". Says Zionism stole his peoples land, that this country has something to answer for in bringing in the Balfour Declaration and that Palestinians should have right to return. That Balfour and this country meant that unlike others Palestinians did not have right to self determination. That Holocaust was not the fault of Palestinians

This is standard view across Palestinians whatever their political allegiance are.

Like the Palestinian Ambassador said at demo. This is not a religious war.

From what I read on Zionism and what I see now there is no recognition by Israel that Nakba was a human rights violation and a human rights crime.

Secondly WW2 and Holocaust might perhaps give reason for 48

This does not however justify 67 and the ongoing incremental ethnic cleansing of the remaining Palestinian land into new settlements or what Ilan Pappe calls a prison for Palestinians. This is down to Zionism as a political project.
 
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littlebabyjesus said:
What The Actual Fuck?

Wanker.
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I keep thinking about this from Streeting which you quoted part of, I think it is worth quoting the whole thing, for context as it gives much more of a measure of the man:

1708417067479.png

So, Streeting considers party politics (it is of course, yet again the SNP who are bringing the call for a ceasefire vote to the house) a great deal more important than concerns for the humanitarian disaster that is happening in Gaza. What an absolute scumbag.
 
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teqniq said:
I keep thinks about this from Streeting which you quoted part of, I think it is worth quoting the whole thing, for context as it gives much more of a measure of the man:

View attachment 412888

So, Streeting considers party politics (it is of course, yet again the SNP who are bringing the call for a ceasefire vote to the house) a great deal more important that concerns for the humanitarian disaster that is happening in Gaza. What an absolute scumbag.
Click to expand...

I've sent him an email. Arseholes like this need to know that their words have consequences.
 
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