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Hamas/Israel conflict: news and discussion

PTK said:
I use the legal term "crimes against humanity", which is easier to prove than genocide.
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Ah thank you, I think that's the phrase I've been looking for for a while. As I've said before I find it distasteful (on the Jewish side) to be debating whether it's 'technically' genocide. Talking about it terms of 'crimes against humanity' is a harder one to try to justify and I guess less likely to induce a knee-jerk reaction than 'genocide', which is so freighted for Jews. As my other half was saying, there's a lot of cognitive dissonance going on among the community - a lot of people just cannot believe, do not want to believe, that Jews could commit genocide, or indeed crimes against humanity. And I get that, but we have to push on and examine it - Israel has put us in that position, sadly.

One of the things my other half discussed last night was that one of the main refutations of the ICJ judgement was the difficulty of proving intent; he mentioned that the casualties in Gaza seem way beyond the usual collateral, that they just keep going and going with high-casualty attacks at intensely populated sites.
 
Cloo said:
Ah thank you, I think that's the phrase I've been looking for for a while. As I've said before I find it distasteful (on the Jewish side) to be debating whether it's 'technically' genocide. Talking about it terms of 'crimes against humanity' is a harder one to try to justify and I guess less likely to induce a knee-jerk reaction than 'genocide', which is so freighted for Jews. As my other half was saying, there's a lot of cognitive dissonance going on among the community - a lot of people just cannot believe, do not want to believe, that Jews could commit genocide, or indeed crimes against humanity. And I get that, but we have to push on and examine it - Israel has put us in that position, sadly.

One of the things my other half discussed last night was that one of the main refutations of the ICJ judgement was the difficulty of proving intent; he mentioned that the casualties in Gaza seem way beyond the usual collateral, that they just keep going and going with high-casualty attacks at intensely populated sites.
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In the hamlet of My Lai in Vietnam, US troops murdered 500 old men, women, children, and babies. Did the US commit genocide in Vietnam? It would probably have been found not guilty. But to those raped and murdered in My Lai, it made no difference to them if this was a one off (it wasn’t) or if it happened every day to every hamlet (it did not).
 
PTK said:
I use the legal term "crimes against humanity", which is easier to prove than genocide.
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I can see why it might be thought wise not to use the word genocide to certain audiences, but this is more than a series of My Lai-style atrocities. It is systematic and deliberate, and its aim is pretty damn clear – its aim is to entirely destroy the Gaza Strip, rendering it completely unliveable, and to cause its 2.2 million inhabitants (or however many are left when the killing finally stops) to leave. 'Destroying Hamas' is a pretext, and 'You're killing too many civilians in this method you're employing to destroy Hamas', which is about the strongest criticism that has come from Israel's allies, spectacularly misses the point. IMO using the term 'genocide' is a way to counter the lies being told by Israel about what it is doing and why.

Israeli politicians - including not only the far-right but also the prime minister and president - have spoken in genocidal terms. Their actions have been consistent with those words. The ICJ may not have explicitly stated that a genocide is taking place in Gaza, but that's no reason to doubt that it is.
 
littlebabyjesus said:
I can see why it might be thought wise not to use the word genocide to certain audiences, but this is more than a series of My Lai-style atrocities. It is systematic and deliberate, and its aim is pretty damn clear – its aim is to entirely destroy the Gaza Strip, rendering it completely unliveable, and to cause its 2.2 million inhabitants (or however many are left when the killing finally stops) to leave. 'Destroying Hamas' is a pretext, and 'You're killing too many civilians in this method you're employing to destroy Hamas', which is about the strongest criticism that has come from Israel's allies, spectacularly misses the point. IMO using the term 'genocide' is a way to counter the lies being told by Israel about what it is doing and why.

Israeli politicians - including not only the far-right but also the prime minister and president - have spoken in genocidal terms. Their actions have been consistent with those words. The ICJ may not have explicitly stated that a genocide is taking place in Gaza, but that's no reason to doubt that it is.
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Good points. I would just like to point out the US had "free-fire zones" where everyone could be killed, that it forced peasants to leave their villages, which were then destroyed, and live in "strategic hamlets" surrounded by barbed wire, and it dropped huge quantities of Agent Orange herbicide to destroy massive areas of forest, and carpet bombed North Vietnam and Cambodia and Laos. People are still being born with genetic defects as a result of Agent Orange, and people are still being killed by unexploded bombs. The Plain of Jars in Laos is probably the most bombed place on Earth.

The main difference between crimes against humanity and genocide is that the former does not have to be aimed at destroying a particular ethnic, national, or religious group.
 
Gramsci said:
Antony Loewenstein was on Al Jazeera few days back.

Saying thought Israel would try to get Egypt to take people from Gaza.

Been discussions on a " buffer zone"

The destruction of infrastructure means Gaza is becoming unliveable.

At this time Egypt are saying no. But they are capable of being bought off.
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Al Jazeera are reporting this.
 
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I was brought up a non conspiracy theorist, first by my stepfather and then in later years by this site and the erudite and intelligent posters whose views I oftentimes respect.
I worked in the global security industry for many years. In many sectors and I would counter, for I know, how very close those conspiracies are, as to what I have witnessed with my own eyes. Agencies I have worked with. Events that occurred that did not make sense at the time. But now, with hindsight, are pretty fucking scary.
I disregarded them because I was invested in the illusion I had been sold.
And it is all illusions.

I first became aware of lowkey a few years ago and duly listened to his music and his message. I find him correct and reasoned in his approach to things, far more than I can be.
The fact that our poster Tim from fucking Ruislip posts such comments, 2 minutes after I posted a four minute video. Shows a) he didn’t watch it and b) he is so conditioned to react in such a manner shows him to be what he is.
Red about Lowkeys activism and you will see why I will react as above.
He’s certainly done more than Tim from fucking Ruislip.
 
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what's done is done is never a good justification, but, they are much more honorable if they go ahead and surrender, all of them. fact is everybody needs to call in the losses - gaza is wasted, time to take in the refugees and give those people relief. no need to waste time and resource on bloody miserable living conditions, or worse, be moving about machines and weaponry (upon what should be a quiet and peaceful land), to build theme parks and temples, whoso trust in bars gates and walls have blood on their hands. and all the proud and haughty scorners, the war criminals and their ranks, that have conducted this wicked violence best surrender all weapons now, they have no excuse to do anything but, unless they want a yet worse damnation in this life and the next.
 
two sheds said:
Ethnic cleansing comes to mind, too.
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Yes,

The Nakba is , I would have thought , proven act of ethnic cleansing that was foundational act of Israeli state. A State for Jewish people on stolen Palestinian land. That is beyond question I would think.

Not that all Jewish people supported this even at the time. But that is how Zionist saw it.

Zionism as a political project was always based on removing Palestinians. Whether "voluntarily" or not.

Some of the language used by hardliners in Israel government now on this is different in tone but not in substance from early Zionism.

Been reading about post 67 Israel occupation of West Bank and Gaza. Shortly after the occupation people were "encouraged" to leave. Smaller amount of direct ethnic cleansing occured. Under Labour Zionism

Since then it has been incremental. But still a crime under international law re occupation by foreign power.

Ethnic cleansing of Palestinians has always been part of Zionism.
 
Boris Sprinkler said:
I was brought up a non conspiracy theorist, first by my stepfather and then in later years by this site and the erudite and intelligent posters whose views I oftentimes respect.
I worked in the global security industry for many years. In many sectors and I would counter, for I know, how very close those conspiracies are, as to what I have witnessed with my own eyes. Agencies I have worked with. Events that occurred that did not make sense at the time. But now, with hindsight, are pretty fucking scary.
I disregarded them because I was invested in the illusion I had been sold.
And it is all illusions.

I first became aware of lowkey a few years ago and duly listened to his music and his message. I find him correct and reasoned in his approach to things, far more than I can be.
The fact that our poster Tim from fucking Ruislip posts such comments, 2 minutes after I posted a four minute video. Shows a) he didn’t watch it and b) he is so conditioned to react in such a manner shows him to be what he is.
Red about Lowkeys activism and you will see why I will react as above.
He’s certainly done more than Tim from fucking Ruislip.
Click to expand...
If you want anyone to watch the video you have to say why they should watch the video, not just whack it up
 
For information. UK and State of Israel signed an agreement on military co-operation in 2020.

www.bicom.org.uk

UK and Israel sign military agreement - BICOM

What happened: The British Armed forces and the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) have signed a joint agreement to strengthen their relationship. Last Thursday, the UK’s Chief of Defence Staff, Gen. Sir Nicholas Carter and the IDF Chief of Staff, Lt Gen Aviv Kochavi met via video link and signed the...
www.bicom.org.uk www.bicom.org.uk
 
Boris Sprinkler said:
Click to expand...

Lambeth Council accounts were on Oracle in the period up to about 1997. They scrapped it because even they didn't know how much in debt they were!
I doubt scraping their data in those days (assuming it was even possible) would not have been much of a security threat. Except possibly to those who hadn't paid their Poll Tax.
 
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CH1 said:
Lambeth Council accounts were on Oracle in the period up to about 1997. They scrapped it because even they didn't know how much in debt they were!
I doubt scaping their data in those days (assuming it was even possible) would have been much of a security threat. Except possibly to those who hadn't paid their Poll Tax.
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I have seen 2 instances (x multiple) of IBM over charging for tickets that never occurred or even occurred on their own network.
Never ask IBM what they did in the war, it’s well embarrassing in business meetings.
 
teqniq said:
Essay by Ilan Pappe putting forward that what we are witnessing is the beginning of the end of the Zionist project. He does however predict that things will get much worse for the Palestinians before the end. Essay is a transcript of a talk he gave 21/01/2024:

It is dark before the dawn, but Israeli settler colonialism is at an end - IHRC
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Frustratingly short.

I would have liked to see more explanation of what a post Zionist state/ region would look like.

He says not to look to western models but looks to history of middle east to help build a new State/ region on ruins of State of Israel. Ottoman period for example.

State of Israel in sense of end of the political project of Zionism.

He argues the level of violence being used in Gaza is making it more and more difficult for those who have supported Israel in past to do so now. The argument that this is self defense will no longer work the longer this goes on.

He also says , as in the Moshe machover article I posted up , that present Israeli society is split between secular and messianic religious. Who are tearing Israel apart pre the Hamas attack. This hasn't gone away.

So he argues over next two years State of Israel as a Zionist state won't last.

This is dangerous territory for both Israeli and Palestinians.

For Pappe the present attack on Gaza is latest event in attempt by settler state to eliminate the indigenous people.

It's an interesting piece by Pappe.

It's a dark moment but also one where new possibilities might arise.

I've almost finished his book on history of occupied territories The Biggest Prison on Earth. In it he says by 2000s Israel felt it had West Bank policy sorted out. Gaza no. Nothing it did stamped out or reduced resistance.

In some ways the attack on Gaza now can be seen as part of continuum of different bombing campaigns in previous years. And the blockade enforced since Hamas took power

He says the present attack in terms of eliminating Palestinians is actually worse then the original Nakba.
 
RhymnRzn said:
what's done is done is never a good justification, but, they are much more honorable if they go ahead and surrender, all of them. fact is everybody needs to call in the losses - gaza is wasted, time to take in the refugees and give those people relief. no need to waste time and resource on bloody miserable living conditions, or worse, be moving about machines and weaponry (upon what should be a quiet and peaceful land), to build theme parks and temples, whoso trust in bars gates and walls have blood on their hands. and all the proud and haughty scorners, the war criminals and their ranks, that have conducted this wicked violence best surrender all weapons now, they have no excuse to do anything but, unless they want a yet worse damnation in this life and the next.
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If I get you right, you are saying Hamas should surrender to those committing genocide?
Good job the Jews in the Warsaw Ghetto did not listen to such advice….
 
Larry O'Hara said:
If I get you right, you are saying Hamas should surrender to those committing genocide?
Good job the Jews in the Warsaw Ghetto did not listen to such advice….
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sure they should, because no one should limit the power of nonviolence, and of divine intervention. on a wide scale, and because i would also fear the natural course and recompense, i don't go churning milk unless i want butter: so as to say how foolish it is to seek trouble then regret to find it. but any surrender/permanent ceasefire, i would think, logically waits for the strongest party here, to use logic themselves, and stop preying on people just because they are weaker, which is a coward's idiot calculus, thus the saying goes, the strong man armed keepeth his goods until one stronger than he comes and binds the strong man and spoils his goods.

and of course the genocide maniacs would probably try to carry out further violence on the palestinians, so naturally make preemptive surrender of the armed resistance an unlikely miracle, but they are determined to go until they are stopped by whatever force beit from heaven or earth, they obviously doubt there is a power, or will have its mercy, as making a covenant with death.

but if the same underlying pretext (that informs and emboldens me to say things) for all this is a warning unheeded, not good for anyone there (or anywhere): the robber-statutes-of-omri-israel will seek to fulfil their vision, but the prophet daniel says, they shall fall. and then what comes after that fall will also seek to build the jerusalem temple mount, but during "troublous times". pointing to probablilty, the disgruntled of the muslim devout, that reasonably hate all of the aggressive non-concent, will likely manage to remind everybody, how the most armed richest people will wake up from this night vision thirsty with nothing to drink, wishing they had heeded the warnings. thus desiring an ambassage and conditions of peace, or they will dangerously test their abilty to withstand.

but dont say too much about carnal warfare. they that serve brutal dictates are but dead men, twice over. the meek shall inherit the earth.
 
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RhymnRzn said:
sure they should, because no one should limit the power of nonviolence, and of divine intervention. on a wide scale, and because i would also fear the natural course and recompense, i don't go churning milk unless i want butter: so as to say how foolish it is to seek trouble then regret to find it. but any surrender/permanent ceasefire, i would think, logically waits for the strongest party here, to use logic themselves, and stop preying on people just because they are weaker, which is a coward's idiot calculus, thus the saying goes, the strong man armed keepeth his goods until one stronger than he comes and binds the strong man and spoils his goods.

and of course the genocide maniacs would probably try to carry out further violence on the palestinians, so naturally make preemptive surrender of the armed resistance an unlikely miracle, but they are determined to go until they are stopped by whatever force beit from heaven or earth, they obviously doubt there is a power, or will have its mercy, as making a covenant with death.

but if the same underlying pretext (that informs and emboldens me to say things) for all this is a warning unheeded, not good for anyone there (or anywhere): the robber-statutes-of-omri-israel will seek to fulfil their vision, but the prophet daniel says, they shall fall. and then what comes after that fall will also seek to build the jerusalem temple mount, but during "troublous times". pointing to probablilty, the disgruntled of the muslim devout, that reasonably hate all of the aggressive non-concent, will likely manage to remind everybody, how the most armed richest people will wake up from this night vision thirsty with nothing to drink, wishing they had heeded the warnings. thus desiring an ambassage and conditions of peace, or they will dangerously test their abilty to withstand.

but dont say too much about carnal warfare. they that serve brutal dictates are but dead men, twice over. the meek shall inherit the earth.
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Ah I see a spiritual fruitloop. I forgive you for you know naught of that which you speak. Keep drinking the Kool-Aid
 
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