Hamas/Israel conflict: news and discussion

[Gramsci]

Rather old but useful piece on the Palestinian authority and crony capitalism that has developed under it.

This has been at the expense of the majority of the Palestinian people. And at time of the article got to the point where its collaboration with an occupying power to the detriment of the struggle of Palestinians against occupation and for national self determination.

The Palestinian Capitalists That Have Gone Too Far

A powerful group of Palestinian capitalists is thriving in the occupied Palestinian territory even as most of the population is struggling to survive. Too often, they owe their wealth to economic collaboration with Israel. Drawing on recent research, Al-Shabaka Policy Member Tariq Dana analyzes...

al-shabaka.org

Profitable links have been made between Palestinian capitalists and Israeli capital and business.

Including things like re badging Israeli products for sale as Palestinian / investing in settlement building/ facilitating use of cheap Palestinian labour ( reducing rights at work for profit)

Section of Palestinian society have done well out of the occupation.

There is lack of public accountability.

This is all helping not Palestinians but helping the "normalisation" process.

So this is the PA that Biden etc want to run a so called Palestinian State.

 

[PTK]

I got the 'what do you think Israel should have done then, huh?' response, to which I replied that for a start they didn't need to block supplies of food and aid, they didn't need to bomb Palestine's national archives, they didn't need to bomb zones they'd told Gazans were safe to flee to.

People who accuse the State of Israel of employing the old "eye for an eye" principle do not realise that at the time that was written it was an injunction to respond proportionately, and what we have seen is 20 or 30 eyes for an eye.

 

[Cloo]

Gsv spoke to a friend in Jerusalem, who feels the same as we do about Israel's actions. Life there is pretty normal but she said you will not find any information at all in mainstream media there about the toll on the people of Gaza, you have to dig around online for that. The only information Israelis are getting by default is about the brave young men and women of the IDF fighting Hamas.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I got the 'what do you think Israel should have done then, huh?' response, to which I replied that for a start they didn't need to block supplies of food and aid, they didn't need to bomb Palestine's national archives, they didn't need to bomb zones they'd told Gazans were safe to flee to.

Problem with this kind of question is along the lines of the old joke about asking for directions and being told 'Well I wouldn't start from here'. But it's a valid point. It's not just about what Israel could or should have done since 7 October. The Oslo Accords were signed 30 years and one month before 7 October 2023. Without digging further into history, how about all the things Israel could and should have done since then?

 

[Johnny Vodka]

Gsv spoke to a friend in Jerusalem, who feels the same as we do about Israel's actions. Life there is pretty normal but she said you will not find any information at all in mainstream media there about the toll on the people of Gaza, you have to dig around online for that. The only information Israelis are getting by default is about the brave young men and women of the IDF fighting Hamas.

Yet one of the Israeli spokespeople says Israel has the only free press in the region (in response to accusations of killing journalists). Sounds like free in theory, but not in practice.

 

[Gramsci]

To be fair Ive got most of my coverage of this online.

Al Jazeera/ Novara Media/ Middle East Eye.

I hardly watch BBC or ITV news.

 

[Gramsci]

What Im saying is that there is plenty of alternatives nowadays. Not a lot of excuse not to know what is really happening

 

[Pickman's model]

Yet one of the Israeli spokespeople says Israel has the only free press in the region (in response to accusations of killing journalists). Sounds like free in theory, but not in practice.

Toe the line or we'll kill you and your family.

 

[Boris Sprinkler]

What Im saying is that there is plenty of alternatives nowadays. Not a lot of excuse not to know what is really happening

But most people are not aware. They do not question anything other than the official narrative presented to them.
Yes, that’s how the world is. easy.

 

[two sheds]

There was a Jerusalem Post article a couple of weeks ago saying that (as I recall) there was a disagreement between the UN and Israel about the ceasefire conditions. I thought at the time the disagreement was rather about stopping killing so many civilians. Struck me at that point that most Israelis are going to have no idea about what's being done.

 

[PTK]

Gsv spoke to a friend in Jerusalem, who feels the same as we do about Israel's actions. Life there is pretty normal but she said you will not find any information at all in mainstream media there about the toll on the people of Gaza, you have to dig around online for that. The only information Israelis are getting by default is about the brave young men and women of the IDF fighting Hamas.

Yet one of the Israeli spokespeople says Israel has the only free press in the region (in response to accusations of killing journalists). Sounds like free in theory, but not in practice.

The press is free to not report what it wants.

 

[Gramsci]

But most people are not aware. They do not question anything other than the official narrative presented to them.
Yes, that’s how the world is. easy.

Im not so sure.

Looking at the demos and it overwhelmingly Joe Public not the "political activists" ( not that Im criticizing them)

The official narrative was that Israel has a right to defend itself/ this is a fight against extremism/ those criticizing Israel actions are possibly anti semitic unless they prove otherwise/ their is the light of liberal democracies against the dark of Putin and Hamas. Good vs Evil

What surprised Starmer and co was that significant section of Joe Public did not accept the official narrative.

That was not part of the programme.

Reminded me read this comment piece in Guardian recently.

It’s not only Israel on trial. South Africa is testing the west’s claim to moral superiority | Nesrine Malik

Supporters of Palestine have long been told their position is fringe. But this case gives them legitimacy – and tests the limits of human rights, says Guardian columnist Nesrine Malik

www.theguardian.com

. The foreign secretary, David Cameron, thinks we should not “bandy about” the charge of genocide. All this does is reflect what supporters of Palestine have been told for years: your position is fringe. It is not based on evidence or morality, but rather on prejudice, radicalism and (more recently) on “wokeness”. In other words, the Israel-Palestine conflict is complicated, best left to the grownups.

This position was always premised on the fact that even if support for Palestine was popular, it was not potent. Rarely did it travel from the streets to the halls of power, and when it did, such sentiment could always be blocked or dispersed

What she is saying in her article ( imo) is that the brilliant way that SA legal team have started their action has shown that the "fringe" people views are now legitimated.

If anything is to be taken from South Africas stand it is this.

A sign of hope is that no longer will supporting Palestinians be seen as questionable. With ones motives being interrogated.

It also lays bare ( and this has been going on since end of WW2) how the post war architecture of human rights is not universal in practise.

 

[PTK]

Not an issue that was of much concern to the Tsars in the late 19th Century when they sent the troops out to slaughter Jews; by Moseley when he led his mob of thugs through the streets of the East End; or to the Germans when they gassed Jews in the camps and shot them and pushed them into mass graves across the plains of East and Central Europe.

Speculating about the Khazars, ignores the fact that Israel exists because because Jews where regarded as being tainted by certain traits and having a common origin by outsiders and that led to them being robbed, banished, and murdered.

It has been said that it is racists who create races. Of course, the question as to the origins of any group is not necessarily relevant when we are fighting discrimination against, and persecution of, that group.

However, if mythologies about the origins of a group are used to justify or promote unjust practices today, then it may be useful to dispel those mythologies. The Khazar theory does not seem to be solidly based, but it is certainly true that there were Jewish kingdoms in Yemen and Ethiopia, and that Judaism was, for a period, a proselytising religion. Some estimates put the proportion of the population of the Roman Empire that was Jewish at 10%. Thus a large proportion of the “diaspora” is not directly descended from people who once lived in Palestine.

However, even if every Jewish person in the world today were directly descended from Jews who lived in ancient Palestine that would not give any one of them today the right to move to the West Bank and take over land on which Palestinian Arabs have been living.

Any principle that is valid must be applicable universally. If we were to apply the principle that people today have the right to settle in areas in which their ancestors once lived, and expel the current population, then there would be endless wars.

 

[mojo pixy]

It has been said that it is racists who create races. Of course, the question as to the origins of any group is not necessarily relevant when we are fighting discrimination against, and persecution of, that group.

However, if mythologies about the origins of a group are used to justify or promote unjust practices today, then it may be useful to dispel those mythologies. The Khazar theory does not seem to be solidly based, but it is certainly true that there were Jewish kingdoms in Yemen and Ethiopia, and that Judaism was, for a period, a proselytising religion. Some estimates put the proportion of the population of the Roman Empire that was Jewish at 10%. Thus a large proportion of the “diaspora” is not directly descended from people who once lived in Palestine.

However, even if every Jewish person in the world today were directly descended from Jews who lived in ancient Palestine that would not give any one of them today the right to move to the West Bank and take over land on which Palestinian Arabs have been living.

Any principle that is valid must be applicable universally. If we were to apply the principle that people today have the right to settle in areas in which their ancestors once lived, and expel the current population, then there would be endless wars.

I don't know if you've noticed, but there are endless wars.

I don't get why you keep harping on this thing about most Jews not actually being real Jews, (at least that's how it looks). It's a very popular angle within NWO-illuminati conspiracy theories btw.

 

[PTK]

I don't know if you've noticed, but there are endless wars.

I don't get why you keep harping on this thing about most Jews not actually being real Jews, (at least that's how it looks). It's a very popular angle within NWO-illuminati conspiracy theories btw.

.

 

[Pickman's model]

.

It's a point I suppose

 

[Gramsci]

Just watching Al Jazeera. Talking to a Palestinian US citizen. Descendent of those who had to leave Palestine

With all this talk of who is a Jew and who is not. About ancient history.

Fact is the expulsion of Palestinians started in 48. Though Zionists had been planning it before.

This expulsion of Palestinians from their homes continued after that.

The bombing of Gaza is the latest Zionist "facts on the ground" to destroy any hopes of those who lived in Palestine Mandate area to have justice. As well as increasing settler attacks in West Bank.

The problem is Zionism not what happened in far distant past.

Zionism is a racist nationalist political project.

 

[PTK]

It's a point I suppose

I'm going dotty.

 

[mojo pixy]

I'm going dotty.

Just make sure you don't go anti-semitic.

That probably sounds harsh, but you're talking about this shit:
ht tps://www. henrymakow .com/2018/09/fraudulent-khazar-claim.html
so IMO I'm actually being really nice just letting you drop it quietly.

Edit, actually I don't want to link directly to that shit so I've typed the url in full and broken the link.

(Fucking Henry Makow ffs!)

 

[Gramsci]

Watching Al Jazeera on the lastest attacks on Gaza.

Including blowing up a University. Which was already in ruins, But hey lets make sure these Arabs cannot educate themselves so blow up the ruins. Says it all about Israel as a State.

People left in Gaza are struggling to survive. Steadfastness ( Sumud) is a way of opposing Zionism. The refusal to leave

If Israel thought its bombing would stop Palestinian civilians from supporting the resistance is has not worked.

Talking to one Palestinian on Al Jazeera the Palestinian said Im not going I support the resistance ( Hamas)

Appears that the resistance despite IDF bombing / superior arms has kept going.

If some in Israel thought they could use Hamas attack to deal with unfinished business with the Palestinians its not working

 

[Gramsci]

Got to admire the ordinary Palestinian people. 75 years of racist ethnic cleansing and racist oppression and they are not going.

 

[PTK]

Just make sure you don't go anti-semitic.

That probably sounds harsh, but you're talking about this shit:
ht tps://www. henrymakow .com/2018/09/fraudulent-khazar-claim.html
so IMO I'm actually being really nice just letting you drop it quietly.

Edit, actually I don't want to link directly to that shit so I've typed the url in full and broken the link.

(Fucking Henry Makow ffs!)

Sorry, but you seem to be the one that is claiming that people whose ancestors did not come from Palestine are not Jewish.

 

[mojo pixy]

Sorry, but you seem to be the one that is claiming that people whose ancestors did not come from Palestine are not Jewish.

And you can quote me doing that, of course...

(eta. or you can take it back, your choice)

 

[ska invita]

Netanyahu has literally shrugged off the notion of a Palestinian state existing by saying "there's no space" and "what can you do?" That's some serious fuck you talk.
There is no amount of international pressure that is going to stop him and the many other politicians in Israel who feel the same - they're completing their "lives work", they're on a mission from god. Doing this with total confidence and arrogance. From what I can see the majority of Israelis are also totally on board, even if they want rid of Netanyahu.

I expect either the US (and UK) will limp along as they have done for decades "expressing concern" and "working hard" to do fuck all, and/or they'll try and increase pressure to get rid of him, but I very much doubt Netanyahu's eventual inevitable replacement will be any different on this...and that change is still a long time coming and famine is real now.

Of course the US has more serious levers it could pull to force the issue but there is no reason to have hope that either the democrats or republicans will pull them.

A wider conflict only helps Netanyahu - war creates the conditions that allow the state to better stifle dissent, and to kill Palestinians.

 

[Cloo]

Had my first 'You can be Jewish and still be an antisemite!' comment on social media today in response to my saying maybe Israel ought not to do ethnic cleansing.

Far as I'm concerned, if one person reads my posts and goes 'Oh, I sort of thought Jews would just side with Israel' I'm doing something to combat antisemitism.

 

[CH1]

There was a PBS documentary yesterday re Netanyahu the US presidents, the Oslo accord and the current war.
I hadn't realised Netanyahu was stirring the pot at boiling point when Prime Minster Rabin was assassinated following Israeli far right agitation against the Oslo accord. Assassination of Yitzhak Rabin - Wikipedia
I had also not registered that Netenyahu delivered a "fuck off" speech at the UN assembly directed at the Palestinians 3 weeks before October 7th. 2023.
Mr Netanyahu seems like a more psychotic version of Nigel Farage. He doesn't just obsess to the point of wrecking his county's economy and foreign relations - through democratic and demagogic means - he does it to the point where thousands die. And he never sees to suffer regrets.

Netanyahu, America & the Road to War in Gaza | PBS America | UK

www.pbsamerica.co.uk

The programme is on Freeview Play - and no doubt will be repeated on the PBS America channel several times.

 

[ska invita]

Grant Schapps telling it like it is shock horror

I think it’s disappointing to hear Benjamin Netanyahu saying he doesn’t believe in a two-state solution. In fairness, he’s said that all of his political career, as far as I can tell.

Exactly...he and his ilk have spent their whole lives talking about the total destruction of Palestine, this should surprise no one .... first time I've ever heard an establishment politician really acknowledge the fact

Shapps added the UK “certainly remains wedded to” a two-state solution and that there “isn’t another option”.

this says it all to me, they know Netanyahu has always wanted Palestine wiped out, they know exactly what is happening here, but will keep whistling two-state into the wind knowing full well its never going to happen

thing is all this wilful ignorance has a close upcoming deadline, namely the ability of 2 million Palestinians to not starve to death .... surely they cant keep looking the other way for ever ?

 

[Serge Forward]

thing is all this wilful ignorance has a close upcoming deadline, namely the ability of 2 million Palestinians to not starve to death .... surely they cant keep looking the other way for ever ?

They can, and it's likely they will.

 

[Bannerrefuggee]

I think with Bibi it's mostly self preservation. I thinks he's a narcissistic person, and wouldn't care if 20 or 100 thousand people died to keep him in office and out of jail.

He's got a few allies who think the same way right now.

Rabin, now there was a politician he should look up too.

 

[nino_savatte]

Had my first 'You can be Jewish and still be an antisemite!' comment on social media today in response to my saying maybe Israel ought not to do ethnic cleansing.

Far as I'm concerned, if one person reads my posts and goes 'Oh, I sort of thought Jews would just side with Israel' I'm doing something to combat antisemitism.

They'll be the same people who chuck the word "kapo" around.