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Hamas/Israel conflict: news and discussion

During the period of the two Kingdoms, Judah was the Southern state based around Jerusalem. Israel the Northern state was based around Samaria. Gaza and that area of the coast was part of Philista under Philistine rule. The Northern Kingdom was later destroyed by the Assyrians. Judah survived for a bit longer

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tim said:
During the period of the two Kingdoms, Judah was the Southern state based around Jerusalem. Israel the Northern state was based around Samaria. Gaza and that area of the coast was part of Philista under Philistine rule. The Northern Kingdom was later destroyed by the Assyrians. Judah survived for a bit longer

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Yes, I tried to clarify above what exactly I've been indicating with the name Judea / Judaea - the Herodian Kingdom of Judaea / Tetrarchy of Judaea which ultimately ended when Rome took it over completely and tore down Jerusalem. It was a turbulent period and borders were as contested then as now, but the reason why that particular state is what I'm referencing is that it was the last time till 1948 that those lands were governed by Jews, and it was from that place and period that the Jewish diaspora originated.
 
mojo pixy said:
Yes, I tried to clarify above what exactly I've been indicating with the name Judea / Judaea - the Herodian Kingdom of Judaea / Tetrarchy of Judaea which ultimately ended when Rome took it over completely and tore down Jerusalem. It was a turbulent period and borders were as contested then as now, but the reason why that particular state is what I'm referencing is that it was the last time till 1948 that those lands were governed by Jews, and it was from that place and period that the Jewish diaspora originated.
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There was Jewish rule later on as well (during the Bar Kokhba revolt of 132-6), the aftermath of which being when the diaspora really got underway.
 
two sheds said:
Yes indeed, but if it's important to the Israelis then it seems interesting to know the background
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But is it important?

My reading of the early Zionists like David Ben Gurion and other Labour Zionists is that they were not that religious.

( very early on other parts of the world were looked at for a Jewish homeland)

Also one thing the early leaders of the State of Israel did was attempt to erase the presence of Palestinians. Destroying whole villages etc. Then building over them. They largely succeeded.

Zionism developed out of late 19c European nationalism.

I would say what the early Zionists succeeded in doing was creating a new nation on the ruins of Palestinian society.

They attempted to create a new nation and a new type of citizen. David Ben Gurion and others seemed to want to create a new kind of Jewish identity that was removed from the European one.

It didn't entirely work out. Israel is beset by internal divisions and the Palestinians have stubbornly refused to go away.

It might not be one I much like and in recent years its started to unravel but I do find my eyes glaze over when references to ancient history and present day Israel are concerned.

Cant help feeling it misses the point.

The point is that the early Zionists developed a new State which is a democracy for Israeli Jews. With as few Palestinians as possible.
 
The absurdity of all this is the argument about who is a Jew in Israel.

To get married officially one needs to prove ones Jewishness to the Chief Rabbinate.

This is not necessarily that straightforward.

In Israel, the Chief Rabbinate controls marriage and divorce. In order to marry through the Chief Rabbinate, would-be spouses must prove they are Jewish. I
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Its mainly the Russian immigrants who have the problem. Came here on back on proving had some Jewish ancestry. But its not enough to be officially Jewish for the Rabbinate

What this intimates to me is that there are plenty of people in Israel , like in any European country , who have a quite mixed background. Yet Israel is supposed to be a State for Jews only.
 
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mojo pixy said:
Yes, I tried to clarify above what exactly I've been indicating with the name Judea / Judaea - the Herodian Kingdom of Judaea / Tetrarchy of Judaea which ultimately ended when Rome took it over completely and tore down Jerusalem. It was a turbulent period and borders were as contested then as now, but the reason why that particular state is what I'm referencing is that it was the last time till 1948 that those lands were governed by Jews, and it was from that place and period that the Jewish diaspora originated.
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The disapora cannot all be traced back to Palestine, as there were a number of other states the converted to Judaism, and many people in the Roman Empire converted to Judaism.
 
Gramsci said:
The absurdity of all this is the argument about who is a Jew in Israel.

To get married officially one needs to prove ones Jewishness to the Chief Rabbinate.

This is not necessarily that straightforward.




Its mainly the Russian immigrants who have the problem. Came here on back on proving had some Jewish ancestry. But its not enough to be officially Jewish for the Rabbinate

What this intimates to me is that there are plenty of people in Israel , like in any European country , who have a quite mixed background. Yet Israel is supposed to be a State for Jews only.
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About 25% of the population of the State of Israel are not regarded as Jews, according to Shlomo Sand. 20% are Arabs, and 5% are people such as the families of Russian Jewish immigrants who themselves are not Jewish. He says that Israel should be a republic, a state of all the people who live there, and not a state for one group of people. Sand says, in a talk that is on Youtube, that the Zionists such as Ben-Gurion were not religious, but they used the Bible to claim the land. He characterises this with words to the effect “God is dead, but before he died he left us the deeds to the house.”

In the book “The Invention of the Land of Israel” Shlomo Sand that there is no necessary connection between the land and the religion. It was never a requirement or an aspiration of Judaism that believers should live in the Holy Land. Sand also says that if you use the Bible to justify the creation of Israel, then you must also justify Jewish settlement of the West Bank, for the land of the West Bank has more connection to events in the Bible than do the coastal regions such as Haifa and Tel Aviv.
 
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PTK said:
The disapora cannot all be traced back to Palestine, as there were a number of other states the converted to Judaism
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Who cares? Judaea (not Palestine, which came later) was where it originated, whatever happened with khazars or whoever.
PTK said:
many people in the Roman Empire converted to Judaism.
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Not really, Rome and Byzantium both ultimately became Christian. Judaism then alternated between exotic, quaint and taboo for a very long time.
 
Al Jazeera is still giving a lot of coverage of Gaza. Even if it's dropped off main news in some western countries.

The killing of civilians by IDF continues.

Whatever the ancient history of this area imo Zionism is and has been for the Palestinian people since 1948 been a process of them being ethnically cleansed from the former Mandate borders.

Gaza being an extreme example. As bad as anything that happened in 48. This is what Zionism is about. What it was about in 48. And they are doing same in Gaza now.

Including allegations by people on the ground of IDF executing men

What is fact is that IDF/ Israeli government are responsible destroying Gaza.
 
Gramsci said:
What is fact is that IDF/ Israeli government are responsible destroying Gaza.
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Without wishing to let anyone off responsibility, what is increasingly a fact is that this war would not be being prosecuted in this way if it wasn't for Netanyahu. And, of course, like the Nazis, "following orders" is still a thing.

Yahu is now deeply unpopular and seen as responsible for letting Israeli security down. He's flicking the Vs at Biden with his 'no Palestinian state' trash talk. (I can't help juxtaposing this in my head with Sunak's ass-licking sending Typhoons to Yemen, pointlessly, to do 'something' to keep the UK's 'special relationship' with the US going - a relationship we all know doesn't actually exist. Yahu just either doesn't care about any 'special relationship' or is praying for Trump).

Yahu seems to be falling out with his own people by the day.

www.bbc.co.uk

Eisenkot: Key Israeli war leader challenges Netanyahu over Gaza strategy

Gadi Eisenkot condemns the prime minister, who insists Israel's offensive will go on until "complete victory".
www.bbc.co.uk

Yahu must know he can't totally defeat Hamas. The whole thing just looks like a proxy for the destruction of Gaza and a land grab.
 
planetgeli said:
Without wishing to let anyone off responsibility, what is increasingly a fact is that this war would not be being prosecuted in this way if it wasn't for Netanyahu. And, of course, like the Nazis, "following orders" is still a thing.

Yahu is now deeply unpopular and seen as responsible for letting Israeli security down. He's flicking the Vs at Biden with his 'no Palestinian state' trash talk. (I can't help juxtaposing this in my head with Sunak's ass-licking sending Typhoons to Yemen, pointlessly, to do 'something' to keep the UK's 'special relationship' with the US going - a relationship we all know doesn't actually exist. Yahu just either doesn't care about any 'special relationship' or is praying for Trump).

Yahu seems to be falling out with his own people by the day.

www.bbc.co.uk

Eisenkot: Key Israeli war leader challenges Netanyahu over Gaza strategy

Gadi Eisenkot condemns the prime minister, who insists Israel's offensive will go on until "complete victory".
www.bbc.co.uk

Yahu must know he can't totally defeat Hamas. The whole thing just looks like a proxy for the destruction of Gaza and a land grab.
Click to expand...

TBF Eisenkot is not one of his own people, and his interview was not so much an attack on Netanyahu as pointing out the obvious.
 
Gramsci said:
Not wanting to have a go here but this is example of Eurocentric point of view.

For many WW2 did not end in 1945. The new human rights post 1945 did not apply to colonial people. So across the world fighting did not stop. Malaysia / Indonesia / Vietnam.

To avoid it being under the new human rights post WW2 wars were labelled for example in Malaysia " The Malaysian Emergency". ie policing actions rather than wars which might come under the new post war human rights.

The Mau Mau rebellion is another example

MAD was not about stopping wars. It was about European/ Russia / US not destroying each other. Proxy wars were fought.

Palestine/ Israel is a case in point. With demise of Ottoman Empire post WW1 the Palestinian Arabs found self determination was not for them. The Balfour declaration saw to that.

Rashid Khalidi ( very good) history of this is called The Hundred Years War on Palestine


The title and book shows war on colonial peoples has been going on and on. Occupation by British and the Mandate ended up as a disaster for Palestinians.

Im afraid when I hear people going on about fear of WW3 its about that coming to Europe and US. And affecting their populations.

Wars have never ended for some peoples outside the privileged US/ Europe and USSR.
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Wars didn't end after WW2, but even in the bloodiest conflicts of the Cold War (Vietnam/Laos/Cambodia) were far more limited in scope to WW2 in Asia, not just in Europe.

Those countries (French Indochina at the time) lost between 4 and 8% of their populations in WW2, and Indonesia (Dutch East Indies) as well as the Philippines lost around 5%. To say nothing of Japanese occupation of China and Korea (and the firebombing of Tokyo and nuclear strikes on Hiroshima and Nagasaki).

If WW3 does erupt, I am more concerned about East Asia than I am Western Europe.
 
PTK said:
The disapora cannot all be traced back to Palestine, as there were a number of other states the converted to Judaism, and many people in the Roman Empire converted to Judaism.
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Not an issue that was of much concern to the Tsars in the late 19th Century when they sent the troops out to slaughter Jews; by Moseley when he led his mob of thugs through the streets of the East End; or to the Germans when they gassed Jews in the camps and shot them and pushed them into mass graves across the plains of East and Central Europe.

Speculating about the Khazars, ignores the fact that Israel exists because because Jews where regarded as being tainted by certain traits and having a common origin by outsiders and that led to them being robbed, banished, and murdered.
 
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planetgeli said:
Without wishing to let anyone off responsibility, what is increasingly a fact is that this war would not be being prosecuted in this way if it wasn't for Netanyahu. And, of course, like the Nazis, "following orders" is still a thing.

Yahu is now deeply unpopular and seen as responsible for letting Israeli security down. He's flicking the Vs at Biden with his 'no Palestinian state' trash talk. (I can't help juxtaposing this in my head with Sunak's ass-licking sending Typhoons to Yemen, pointlessly, to do 'something' to keep the UK's 'special relationship' with the US going - a relationship we all know doesn't actually exist. Yahu just either doesn't care about any 'special relationship' or is praying for Trump).

Yahu seems to be falling out with his own people by the day.

www.bbc.co.uk

Eisenkot: Key Israeli war leader challenges Netanyahu over Gaza strategy

Gadi Eisenkot condemns the prime minister, who insists Israel's offensive will go on until "complete victory".
www.bbc.co.uk

Yahu must know he can't totally defeat Hamas. The whole thing just looks like a proxy for the destruction of Gaza and a land grab.
Click to expand...
Apologies for the repeat but imo this is very much about him clinging onto power to avoid prosecution. If you haven't already please have a look at the Haaretz article I recently posted an archived version of.
 
teqniq said:
In a further effort to escalate tensions and expand the conflict:

www.aljazeera.com

IRGC says 5 members killed in Israeli attack on Damascus building

Iran confirms killing of Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps members as tensions flare up amid Israel’s war on Gaza.
www.aljazeera.com www.aljazeera.com
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The Israelis clearly still have good sources in Damascus:

'“An Israeli missile strike targeted a four-storey building, killing five people … and destroying the whole building where Iran-aligned leaders were meeting,” said the Syrian Observatory.'
 
So sick of people (although, TBF, a lot of them are bots) trying to wriggle out of things with feeble excuses about non-Jewish Israelis. I've seen multiple 'Israel can't be an apartheid state because non-Jews have votes', and 'It can't be ethnic cleansing because there are Arab soldiers in the IDF'. The latter just reads to me as 'It's not ethnic cleansing, it's just lightly sparkling genocide'.
 
Cloo said:
So sick of people (although, TBF, a lot of them are bots) trying to wriggle out of things with feeble excuses about non-Jewish Israelis. I've seen multiple 'Israel can't be an apartheid state because non-Jews have votes', and 'It can't be ethnic cleansing because there are Arab soldiers in the IDF'. The latter just reads to me as 'It's not ethnic cleansing, it's just lightly sparkling genocide'.
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Indeed. File with "Israel is the only democracy in the Middle East".
 
teqniq said:
This is just disgusting, but alas, unsurprising:

threadreaderapp.com

Thread by @zarahsultana on Thread Reader App

@zarahsultana: NEW: The government hid from Parliament the Foreign Office's "serious concerns" about Israel's compliance with International Humanitarian Law in Gaza, according to newly-released court papers. This sh...…
threadreaderapp.com threadreaderapp.com
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Read this. Thanks for this as was not aware of the legal case.

GLAN ( Global Legal Action Network) are representing Palestinian human rights organisation Al Haq

Foreign Office advice has record of being ignored. Back in early days of Zionism when Zionists were lobbying government politicians and officials to support a future "population transfer" (in 1930s) it was Foreign Office officials who pointed out this is not necessarily in best interests of British state. Hardly a radical position but shows how support for State of Israel is not imo that rational on even on a basis of British States self interest.

So no its not surprising.
 
planetgeli said:
Without wishing to let anyone off responsibility, what is increasingly a fact is that this war would not be being prosecuted in this way if it wasn't for Netanyahu. And, of course, like the Nazis, "following orders" is still a thing.

Yahu is now deeply unpopular and seen as responsible for letting Israeli security down. He's flicking the Vs at Biden with his 'no Palestinian state' trash talk. (I can't help juxtaposing this in my head with Sunak's ass-licking sending Typhoons to Yemen, pointlessly, to do 'something' to keep the UK's 'special relationship' with the US going - a relationship we all know doesn't actually exist. Yahu just either doesn't care about any 'special relationship' or is praying for Trump).

Yahu seems to be falling out with his own people by the day.

www.bbc.co.uk

Eisenkot: Key Israeli war leader challenges Netanyahu over Gaza strategy

Gadi Eisenkot condemns the prime minister, who insists Israel's offensive will go on until "complete victory".
www.bbc.co.uk

Yahu must know he can't totally defeat Hamas. The whole thing just looks like a proxy for the destruction of Gaza and a land grab.
Click to expand...

Yes Netanyahu bears a lot of responsibility but reading the article and destroying Gaza isn't necessarily unpopular with Israeli public ( comment at end) nor is idea of a two state solution popular.

Notice Biden says this:
"There are a number of types of two-state solutions. There's a number of countries that are members of the UN that... don't have their own militaries," Mr Biden said.
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So what Biden is saying to Netanyahu is that he would accept the status quo. Some kind of Palestinian self government as in West Bank. That is what Biden is saying would satisfy him as a "two state" solution.

When to any reasonable person its not. Its playing with words. But it is what a lot of western politicians mean.

As much as I like BBC Im tired of this line in their reports that US and western allies have been trying so hard to get Israel government to comply with humanitarian rules re the bombing of Gaza. No they have not. Easy way to make Israel comply is to cut of military sales and aid. Which they are not doing.
 
Gramsci said:
Read this. Thanks for this as was not aware of the legal case.

GLAN ( Global Legal Action Network) are representing Palestinian human rights organisation Al Haq

Foreign Office advice has record of being ignored. Back in early days of Zionism when Zionists were lobbying government politicians and officials to support a future "population transfer" (in 1930s) it was Foreign Office officials who pointed out this is not necessarily in best interests of British state. Hardly a radical position but shows how support for State of Israel is not imo that rational on even on a basis of British States self interest.

So no its not surprising.
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Lol nor was I until I actually looked at the link. Have bunged them some money.
 
I got the 'what do you think Israel should have done then, huh?' response, to which I replied that for a start they didn't need to block supplies of food and aid, they didn't need to bomb Palestine's national archives, they didn't need to bomb zones they'd told Gazans were safe to flee to.
 
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