Hamas/Israel conflict: news and discussion

[Gramsci]

Genuine question: what happens if the state of Israel is found guilty of genocide? How is that judgement enforced?

The last time State of Israel was up before the court was about the building of the "separation wall". ICJ ruled against it.

Israel ignored ICJ and UN.

Israel’s separation wall endures, 15 years after ICJ ruling

The separation wall, deemed illegal by ICJ, cuts into occupied West Bank territory, and will be 712km upon completion.

www.aljazeera.com

So any judgement by ICJ is likely to be ignored by State of Israel

Israel’s separation wall endures, 15 years after ICJ ruling​

Tuesday marks the 15th anniversary since the International Court of Justice (ICJ), the UN judiciary organ, issued an advisory opinion that deemed Israel’s separation wall illegal.
While the decision is non-binding, it found the wall violates international law and called for its dismantlement. It also ruled that Israel should pay reparations for any damage caused.
A month after the ICJ decision, the UN General Assembly later voted overwhelmingly to demand Israel to comply with the UN’s highest legal body.

 

[emanymton]

This is a flat-out lie:

It's quite possible they haven't used any bombs on hospitals. Missiles and rockets of course, just no bombs.

 

[Aladdin]

I found it extremely depressing liatening to the Israeli defense today. They wove a web of dates and times and statements that Israel made about Humanitarian aid and not breaching any laws of war...when anyone seeing the thousands of videos and photos coming out of Gaza KNOWS that Israel is lying.

It's as if they think that because they've made certain statements (and then done a 360 and done the opposite) that the world will believe what they say and not what they have done.

It's soul destroying just watching this. God help the Palestinians living this nnightmare and seeing Israel calmly persuading the world that there's nothing to see there.

 

[mojo pixy]

The gaslighting and DARVO from the various spokespeople of the Israeli regime is really off the chart. It's quite incredible that they expect it to be swallowed, utterly incomprehensible to me that it is actually being.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I found it extremely depressing liatening to the Israeli defense today. They wove a web of dates and times and statements that Israel made about Humanitarian aid and not breaching any laws of war...when anyone seeing the thousands of videos and photos coming out of Gaza KNOWS that Israel is lying.

It's as if they think that because they've made certain statements (and then done a 360 and done the opposite) that the world will believe what they say and not what they have done.

It's soul destroying just watching this. God help the Palestinians living this knightmare and seeing Israel calmly persuading the world that there's nothing to see there.

Yep. Makes it massively important that Israel loses this case. Even if they and the US are going to ignore it. If they are somehow let off, it will have shown them and everyone else that there is no such thing as international law. There are just the powerful and the weak.

 

[Gramsci]

The other thing about this case and the previous one about the separation wall is that the findings of the court mean that its " legimate" to criticise State of Israel for things that ICJ has ruled against.

If ICJ agrees with South African proposals to halt Israel state actions in Gaza ( not a final judgment) then those of us who have been calling for a ceasefire are vindicated.

A court ruling on this means those calling for Ceasefire cannot be accused of picking on Israel.

Unlike Starmer and Labour Friends of Israel who have been opposing ceasefire. On basis that Israel has a right to defend itself.

 

[Gramsci]

The39thStep posted up clips of the summing up by South Africa.

Owen Jones has put the whole of the summing up on his youtube channel with no comment from him. Unusually. Its about 30 minutes and I can see why he did not add his comment. Its a powerful speech. And speaks for itself.

Its restrained and keeps to the issues. But also argues the moral case for a ceasefire. And that the Israeli government/ IDF actions are genocidal in legal terms.

She is arguing in this case for provisional measures. Uses a lot of examples from case law. Which I did not know about.

She implies that South Africa has taken this action due to the lack of action by international community. She does not mention those countries responsible for this.

That would be USA and UK in particular. Including in UK the opposition party leader imo.

 

[Gramsci]

I will be on demo tomorrow.

Whilst watching the South African legal team sum up I realise their is only so much of this I can watch.

 

[Pickman's model]

It's quite possible they haven't used any bombs on hospitals. Missiles and rockets of course, just no bombs

so not a single one of the vast number of dumb bombs dropped hit a hospital?

https://edition.cnn.com/2023/12/13/politics/intelligence-assessment-dumb-bombs-israel-gaza/index.html

 

[TopCat]

Only slightly OT, but you have to wonder how many of current crop of politicians would have supported apartheid South Africa back in the day.

I’m trying to recollect the LP attitudes at the time. The left opposed it and some pretended to be left and got on the bandwagon. I can’t recall Kinnock and that’s views.

 

[YouSir]

I’m trying to recollect the LP attitudes at the time. The left opposed it and some pretended to be left and got on the bandwagon. I can’t recall Kinnock and that’s views.

Comrades, the Government doesn’t know that. Britain should not have to be dragged, fumbling, stumbling and mumbling, into imposing even the most nominal economic sanctions against apartheid South Africa. (Applause) We should be leading opinion, out of pride in our own liberty and out of the practical knowledge, as we in this movement have counselled for years, that there is only one plausible way that stands the remotest chance of securing peaceful change in South Africa, and that is by the strong imposing of effective economic sanctions against apartheid. Now, when South African businessmen sensibly confer with leaders of the African National Congress, when the United Democratic Front grows bold in its demands for freedom in South Africa and when even the President of the United States of America is obliged to impose embargoes on the apartheid regime, the British government’s excuses and alibis become more lame, more pathetic, more contemptible by the day.

Leader's speech from '85, not sure how it fits into the context of the time and where everyone else was/how far behind Labour was but there you go. Certainly more than you'd ever expect from modern Labour either way. He even says 'comrades', the Hard Left filth.

 

[PTK]

The39thStep posted up clips of the summing up by South Africa.

Owen Jones has put the whole of the summing up on his youtube channel with no comment from him. Unusually. Its about 30 minutes and I can see why he did not add his comment. Its a powerful speech. And speaks for itself.

Its restrained and keeps to the issues. But also argues the moral case for a ceasefire. And that the Israeli government/ IDF actions are genocidal in legal terms.

She is arguing in this case for provisional measures. Uses a lot of examples from case law. Which I did not know about.

She implies that South Africa has taken this action due to the lack of action by international community. She does not mention those countries responsible for this.

That would be USA and UK in particular. Including in UK the opposition party leader imo.

“Whoever stays until the end
Will tell the story
We did what we could
Remember us.”

was written on a whiteboard in a hospital in the Gaza Strip by a doctor from the charity Médecins Sans Frontières.

The author was killed, along with two his colleagues, in an air strike by the Israeli Defence Forces.

 

[teqniq]

Please sign and share:

Petition: Create a Palestinian Family Visa Scheme for Palestinian people affected by war

We want the government to take action and create a Visa scheme that allows Palestinian individuals affected by war, to be allowed into the UK. Just like we did for Ukraine.

petition.parliament.uk

 

[Pickman's model]

Please sign and share:

Petition: Create a Palestinian Family Visa Scheme for Palestinian people affected by war

We want the government to take action and create a Visa scheme that allows Palestinian individuals affected by war, to be allowed into the UK. Just like we did for Ukraine.

petition.parliament.uk

Do we tho? I mean, is this aimed more at the racism of the government than at helping Palestinians in gaza?

 

[Rob Ray]

It's as if they think that because they've made certain statements (and then done a 360 and done the opposite) that the world will believe what they say and not what they have done.

It's less about foreign opinion than domestic - tis all about the evening news sound bites picked by a largely compliant wartime media. They can ignore the actual results as long as they continue to have US backing, and the US State will continue to do so because the public isn't strongly objecting.

 

[teqniq]

Do we tho? I mean, is this aimed more at the racism of the government than at helping Palestinians in gaza?

Apparently there are a fair number of Palestinians already here in the UK with relatives in Gaza so there is a familial connection. The government has already said no btw. To my mind it's a fairly straightforward humanitarian matter.

 

[mojo pixy]

Please sign and share:

Petition: Create a Palestinian Family Visa Scheme for Palestinian people affected by war

We want the government to take action and create a Visa scheme that allows Palestinian individuals affected by war, to be allowed into the UK. Just like we did for Ukraine.

petition.parliament.uk

The problem with it is, how are they meant to get here? Its not as if people can just get a train out of Gaza, or fill a car and drive to Turkey or Romania. Gaza has no shipping port or airport.

It's a nice idea but whoever made it didn't really think it through.

 

[Pickman's model]

Apparently there are a fair number of Palestinians already here in the UK with relatives in Gaza so there is a familial connection. The government has already said no btw. To my mind it's a fairly straightforward humanitarian matter.

Yeh it would be if eg Egypt were prepared to facilitate or this didn't seem like playing into zionist hands. The most obvious humanitarian gesture might be hmg speaking sharply to the zionists and stationing ships off gaza to operate a no fly zone over gaza. I understand there are some rn assets just the other side of the suez canal

 

[Gramsci]

The petition is about, yet again , the way the government ( and opposition) views Ukraine war as opposed to Gaza. The blatantly obvious double standard.

So on that level I get the petition.

However this would be playing into Zionist hands. Im sure they would be glad to get rid of some Palestinians once and for all. After all they have been at it for 75 years.

I was watching a short news report from Lebanon where the reporter talked to a few people in refugee camp. Who had been born in the camp. They all said they wanted their land back and to return to the land occupied by the Zionists.

Unfortunately for Zionists the Palestinians are not keen on moving on and leaving permanently.

The reporter talked to both Hamas and Fatah supporters and this is something they agree on.

Looked to me that on the ground Hamas and Fatah supporters could agree on a lot. Couple of people reporter talked to said there should be unity of different factions when opposing Zionist State.

 

[nino_savatte]

I think I remember from earlier in the thread that Israel isn't a member of and therefore doesn't recognise the authority of the ICC (as distinct from the ICJ, which is where the current case is being heard).

Whether or not that's correct, I very much doubt that Netanyahu or any of his cronies will ever be prosecuted as individuals for any of the acts of the Israeli state.

Israel hasn't ratified the Rome Statute, which created the ICC. Interestingly, Palestine is a signatory to the ICC and recognises its jurisdiction.

If Netanyahu and the others are listed on an international arrest warrant, they won't be able to leave Israel. Not that it matters much to them.

 

[PTK]

Yeh it would be if eg Egypt were prepared to facilitate or this didn't seem like playing into zionist hands. The most obvious humanitarian gesture might be hmg speaking sharply to the zionists and stationing ships off gaza to operate a no fly zone over gaza. I understand there are some rn assets just the other side of the suez canal

Steady on, old chap! A no-fly zone? HMG could simply withdraw the RAF overflights of the Gaza Strip, and withdraw the "special forces" that it has not denied are on the ground, and stop all arms exports and impose a complete embargo on trade.

 

[Petcha]

As much as I support what SA is doing in the courts against Israel's genocide, I think sacking the captain of the u19 cricket team because he's Jewish is a bit much.

 

[PTK]

As much as I support what SA is doing in the courts against Israel's genocide, I think sacking the captain of the u19 cricket team because he's Jewish is a bit much.

It is not because he is Jewish, it is because he expressed support for the war in the Gaza Strip.

"The teenager was recognised at the Jewish Achiever Awards and said: “I’m now the rising star, but the true rising stars are the young soldiers in Israel. And I’d like to dedicate it to the state of Israel and every single soldier fighting so that we can live and thrive in the diaspora.”"

South Africa under-19 cricket captain stood down over anti-war protest fears

Hosts South Africa have stripped skipper David Teeger of the captaincy for their Under-19 Cricket World Cup campaign amid fears he could be a target for anti-war protesters

www.theguardian.com

 

[Petcha]

It is not because he is Jewish, it is because he expressed support for the war in the Gaza Strip.

"The teenager was recognised at the Jewish Achiever Awards and said: “I’m now the rising star, but the true rising stars are the young soldiers in Israel. And I’d like to dedicate it to the state of Israel and every single soldier fighting so that we can live and thrive in the diaspora.”"

South Africa under-19 cricket captain stood down over anti-war protest fears

Hosts South Africa have stripped skipper David Teeger of the captaincy for their Under-19 Cricket World Cup campaign amid fears he could be a target for anti-war protesters

www.theguardian.com

I despise what is happening in Gaza. But sport should be kept apart. We saw this in the 80s under apartheid with the rugby and cricket teams and that was disastrous.

 

[PTK]

I despise what is happening in Gaza. But sport should be kept apart. We saw this in the 80s under apartheid with the rugby and cricket teams and that Erwas disastrous.

The sport boycott of South Africa was certainly a blow to apartheid.

 

[andysays]

I despise what is happening in Gaza. But sport should be kept apart. We saw this in the 80s under apartheid with the rugby and cricket teams and that was disastrous.

If you think support should be kept apart from politics, presumably you agree that Teeger shouldn't have used the platform given to him because he's the captain of the SA u19 cricket team to make such a controversial political statement

 

[PTK]

I despise what is happening in Gaza. But sport should be kept apart. We saw this in the 80s under apartheid with the rugby and cricket teams and that was disastrous.

Furthermore, you should not be misinforming people by claiming that he was suspended because he is Jewish.

 

[planetgeli]

As much as I support what SA is doing in the courts against Israel's genocide, I think sacking the captain of the u19 cricket team because he's Jewish is a bit much.

He is also not 'sacked' to use your emotive language but relieved of his duties (with reasons outlined) for the tournament.

I mean, we can see how this plays out, but right now he is not sacked.

 

[Pickman's model]

Steady on, old chap! A no-fly zone? HMG could simply withdraw the RAF overflights of the Gaza Strip, and withdraw the "special forces" that it has not denied are on the ground, and stop all arms exports and impose a complete embargo on trade.

There's a variety of things could be done

 

[PTK]

There's a variety of things could be done

Yes, indeed, but the point is not the UK is not actively trying to stop the slaughter in the Gaza Strip, it actively aiding it.