Hamas/Israel conflict: news and discussion

[littlebabyjesus]

There's plenty of evidence of genocidal intent online from government ministers to individual soldiers. None of it can be waved away a mere 'jocularities'.

Yep. And the intent matches the actions. So it's going to come down to whether the judges want to support Israel or not. I think it always did. As with many court cases of this kind, the decision isn't made on the evidence. Rather, the evidence is weighed in such a way as to support the decision.

 

[teqniq]

This is a great photo from today:

 

[Kid_Eternity]

Genuine question: what happens if the state of Israel is found guilty of genocide? How is that judgement enforced?

 

[ska invita]

have we had blood libel yet?

wtf does blood libel mean? I looked up the wiki and its meaning seemed utterly irrelevant to the way it gets used?

Blood libel - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

"Blood libel or ritual murder libel (also blood accusation)[1][2] is an antisemitic canard[3][4][5] which falsely accuses Jews of murdering Christians in order to use their blood in the performance of religious rituals"

 

[ska invita]

Genuine question: what happens if the state of Israel is found guilty of genocide? How is that judgement enforced?

sod all

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Genuine question: what happens if the state of Israel is found guilty of genocide? How is that judgement enforced?

This hearing won't convict Israel of genocide. It is seeking to determine if there is an imminent danger of genocide and will give an interim ruling urging Israel to do all it can to stop one from happening. Its ruling will call for an immediate halt to hostilities from Israel.

It isn't enforced, basically. There is no mechanism to force Israel to comply.

According to Al Jazeera, any actual conviction for genocide would take years.

 

[Kid_Eternity]

This hearing won't convict Israel of genocide. It is seeking to determine if there is an imminent danger of genocide and will give an interim ruling urging Israel to do all it can to stop one from happening. Its ruling will call for an immediate halt to hostilities from Israel.

It isn't enforced, basically. There is no mechanism to force Israel to comply.

According to Al Jazeera, any actual conviction for genocide would take years.

Ok, so let's say it's 2030, Israel has been found guilty and convicted of genocide, what happens then?

 

[littlebabyjesus]

This is Al Jazeera's verdict.

Al Jazeera’s senior political analyst Marwan Bishara says that throughout the hearing, Israel lost the moral, factual, historical and humanitarian argument because of the way the situation has unravelled in Gaza – with the sheer death and industrial killing there”.

He said the Israeli legal teams’ continuous efforts to blame Hamas for the suffering in Gaza – where at least 23,700 people have been killed – and to convince the court that Israel is trying to ameliorate the humanitarian situation there were unconvincing.

However, he said the Israeli team did make strong “jurisdictional and procedural arguments”.

They relate to whether South Africa has a legitimate “dispute” with Israel that warrants it taking Israel to the ICJ in the first place, the court’s limited jurisdiction, and the grounds for each of the “provisional measures” sought by South Africa to protect Palestinians from harm.

While Israel lost the “moral argument”, its team may have “made a dent” in South Africa’s case with its jurisdictional points, said Bishara.

So if Israel escapes judgement it will be on a technicality.

 

[Pickman's model]

wtf does blood libel mean? I looked up the wiki and its meaning seemed utterly irrelevant to the way it gets used?

Blood libel - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

"Blood libel or ritual murder libel (also blood accusation)[1][2] is an antisemitic canard[3][4][5] which falsely accuses Jews of murdering Christians in order to use their blood in the performance of religious rituals"

i agree. but it's another one for the bingo

 

[Orang Utan]

Ok, so let's say it's 2030, Israel has been found guilty and convicted of genocide, what happens then?

What is your point? Imagine asking that during the bloodbath of Rwanda’s genocide in 1994, or during the Balkans’ conflicts throughout the 90s?
Netanyahu and cronies should be prosecuted by the ICC in The Hague like many of those involved in the above genocides

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Ok, so let's say it's 2030, Israel has been found guilty and convicted of genocide, what happens then?

I guess particular individuals would be indicted and taken to trial. Individuals have been convicted on charges of genocide in Rwanda and Serbia, for example, including political leaders.

 

[Sue]

They steered away from that. But they did start off with a statement concerning how this law only exists because of the Holocaust, so how dare they use it against them.

So they're saying Israel can do whatever it likes because of the Holocaust? I mean how the fuck did we get to this point?

 

[teqniq]

What?

 

[PTK]

Although they did take minutes at the Wannsee conference…

Yeah, but they kept it all secret.

 

[PTK]

Israel is a member of the UN and is also a signatory to the ICJ, thus it has jurisdiction. If the ICJ orders Israel to stop its genocidal campaign and it refuses to do so, it won't reflect well on Israel or its colonialist supporters. However, could Israel be kicked out of the UN? Has the UN ever expelled a member?

"GA Suspends South Africa
November 12, 1974
The General Assembly suspends South Africa from participating in its work, due to international opposition to the policy of apartheid. South Africa was re-admitted to the UN in 1994 following its transition into a democracy."

The United Nations: Partner in the Struggle Against Apartheid

 

[YouSir]

What is your point? Imagine asking that during the bloodbath of Rwanda’s genocide in 1994, or during the Balkans’ conflicts throughout the 90s?
Netanyahu and cronies should be prosecuted by the ICC in The Hague like many of those involved in the above genocides

Even in the short term an interim judgement would allow for a whole load of legal actions in various countries, if the ICJ orders Israel to cease military action then those backing them would at least have to engage with further potential cases. How much of a difference that ultimately makes is up to your faith in our/everyones governments.

 

[Raheem]

What?

"At this stage..."

That's referring to something that isn't self-evident from the clip.

 

[PTK]

wtf does blood libel mean? I looked up the wiki and its meaning seemed utterly irrelevant to the way it gets used?

Blood libel - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

"Blood libel or ritual murder libel (also blood accusation)[1][2] is an antisemitic canard[3][4][5] which falsely accuses Jews of murdering Christians in order to use their blood in the performance of religious rituals"

Well, if you accuse the State of Israel of deliberately killing children, then you could be accused of recyling the claim that Jews kill children.

 

[teqniq]

Saw this earlier but didn't want to disrupt the ICJ stuff. It turns out that the Hannibal directive was implemented by the IDF to stop Hamas returning to Gaza even if they had hostages with them. You will need to use translation services to read the article:

ההוראה: למנוע ממחבלים לחזור לעזה "בכל מחיר", גם אם יש איתם חטופים

תחקיר הכאוס בשעות הראשונות של 7 באוקטובר: פקודות מבולבלות, טייסים שלא היה מי שינחה אותם לתקוף מחבלים, והוראה לירות בכל כלי הרכב שחוזרים לעזה – למרות החשש שיש בהם חטופים. התחקיר המלא, שמשרטט דקה אחר דקה את בוקר המתקפה, יפורסם מחר במוסף "7 ימים" של "ידיעות אחרונות"

www.ynet.co.il

 

[Pickman's model]

What?

as has been said that's a section of the speech. but yeh at this stage they don't need in law to prove it, that the case on the statements of intent is sufficient - but i think they went on to detail acts which amount to genocide.

 

[Pickman's model]

Well, if you accuse the State of Israel of deliberately killing children, then you could be accused of recyling the claim that Jews kill children.

if they don't kill children then they'll be appalled when they find out what they have done in gaza

 

[Larry O'Hara]

Yeah, but they kept it all secret.

Indeed

 

[PTK]

Even in the short term an interim judgement would allow for a whole load of legal actions in various countries, if the ICJ orders Israel to cease military action then those backing them would at least have to engage with further potential cases. How much of a difference that ultimately makes is up to your faith in our/everyones governments.

If the ICJ rules against the State of Israel, then the government of the UK could possibly be charged with complicity in genocide.

 

[PTK]

Shlomo Sand makes a good point in The Invention of the Land of Israel.

If you justify the existence of the State of Israel on the grounds that it was the ancestral home of the Jewish people, then you cannot object to Israeli occupation of the West Bank, for there are parts of the West Bank that have more connection to Ancient Hebrew history than places on the coast such as Tel Aviv and Haifa.

 

[teqniq]

This is a flat-out lie:

 

[planetgeli]

This is a flat-out lie:

They were all Hamas Central Command Centres cunningly made to look like hospitals by the HAMAS Health Ministry.

 

[Johnny Vodka]

Only slightly OT, but you have to wonder how many of current crop of politicians would have supported apartheid South Africa back in the day.

 

[Pickman's model]

Only slightly OT, but you have to wonder how many of current crop of politicians would have supported apartheid South Africa back in the day.

Sunak would have surprised many in his avid advocacy for apartheid

 

[twistedAM]

Sunak would have surprised many in his avid advocacy for apartheid

And if he did, then Starmer wouldn't have wanted to lose votes in the "Red Wall".

 

[andysays]

What is your point? Imagine asking that during the bloodbath of Rwanda’s genocide in 1994, or during the Balkans’ conflicts throughout the 90s?
Netanyahu and cronies should be prosecuted by the ICC in The Hague like many of those involved in the above genocides

I think I remember from earlier in the thread that Israel isn't a member of and therefore doesn't recognise the authority of the ICC (as distinct from the ICJ, which is where the current case is being heard).

Whether or not that's correct, I very much doubt that Netanyahu or any of his cronies will ever be prosecuted as individuals for any of the acts of the Israeli state.