Not calling for an immediate ceasefire however
Hamas/Israel conflict: news and discussion
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Dogsauce
I’ve got Skol but I’m not a Scholar
One thing to consider is that many European Jews had ‘survivor’s guilt’ after the Holocaust, which might explain how it would not be something spoken of - in particular those who survived the camps often did so only by providing themselves useful to their oppressors, sometimes at the expense of others. This is something quite evident in the writings of Primo Levi. That and the massive fucking trauma of having born witness or having lost so many of your community, to relive that trauma would be something most people would want to avoid.
The parallel with our own remembrance is valid - I can remember going to the cenotaph as a child in the 70s/80s and the solemn silence and tears as names were read out, many surnames familiar to those in the village, brothers and widows still there, and old soldiers who bore witness to it all. None of this crass cosplay Tommy stuff and decorated pubs which we have now, with the words ‘never again’ seeming to have disappeared. It meant something very different.
Gramsci
Well-Known Member
His history is a bit off
Hamas have moved on from their original charter. Over years several times have not gone against negotiations for two state solution.
Have offered a truce as well at previous times. Between Gaza Hamas and Israel
Any feelers they have put out for national unity/ truce been rebuffed by whatever government is in power in Israel.
They also won elections.
And going on polling would do well at any future elections.
The comparison with NI could be one state solution. NI is still in UK but people their have dual nationality. Can have Irish and UK passport.
The other very loose comparison is that long negotiations took place with all parties. Including "terrorists" in NI.
IRA weren't just excluded.
Wallace doesn't agree with call for ceasefire I noticed. Which rather undermines rest of his argument.
And the settlement in West Bank have been defacto Israeli government policy since 67. It's not just about a few militant settlers.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
I suppose the museum and the roman cemetery were terrorist targets. The zionists' use of dumb bombs, little mentioned on this thread, might have had something to do with that. Their assault on heritage as well as the genocidal slaughter of the Palestinian population shows them to be barbarians, and in no way in a good way. Worthy allies of the Saudis.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
The British government talked to the ira throughout the conflict in the six counties. In 1972 Adams and mcguinness were flown to London for talks. 'Ten men dead' goes into some detail about the communications with the British government during the 1981 hunger strike as does adams' own 'before the dawn'. And the peace process emerged from talks between Hume and Adams.
planetgeli
There's no future in England's dreaming
So even the Americans are now saying pretty please. And with language that could have been more carefully chosen.
US Defence Secretary Lloyd Austin says the US has spoken to Israel about making the war in Gaza more "surgical"
US Defence Secretary Lloyd Austin says the US has spoken to Israel about making the war in Gaza more "surgical"
Johnny Vodka
The Abominable Scotsman
I'll believe it when I see a stop, or even the threat of a stop, to the sale of weapons.
Spandex
A crazy bulbous punchbag of sound
Sounds like an invitation to blow up more hospitals, if they can find any they haven't already blown up
ska invita
back on the other side
Israeli press is saying it'll be full steam ahead into mid January, then less bombing and more occupation and mopping up (which Biden will no doubt present as a de-escalation)
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PTK
Paul Kegan
Ten Conservative MPs are to the left of Keir Starmer, in that they call for an immediate ceasefire.
"By any measure we are witnessing a catastrophe of precisely the kind the 1949 Geneva Conventions were supposed to prevent. As such, it is unconscionable that we should make Gaza an exception to the rules and obligations those accords created"
news.sky.com
"By any measure we are witnessing a catastrophe of precisely the kind the 1949 Geneva Conventions were supposed to prevent. As such, it is unconscionable that we should make Gaza an exception to the rules and obligations those accords created"
Senior Tories pile pressure on Rishi Sunak to back immediate Gaza ceasefire
In a letter to Foreign Secretary Lord Cameron, 10 Tory MPs say the case for an immediate ceasefire is "unanswerable" as they argue Israel's actions are neither "proportionate nor targeted".
news.sky.com
Gramsci
Well-Known Member
Went back to Owen Jones interview of Professor of Peace Studies at Bradford Uni Paul Rogers.
Quite informative
Rogers take is that Hamas are far from being defeated. They managed a complex operation to kill senior commanders in IDF recently.
Middle of interview an awful lot on Iraq/ ISIS. Was not happy with this. Rogers was ( rightly saying) way Israel government/ IDF have been pursuing this war means if they defeat Hamas all the young men ( he does say men. I have issue with this. Hamas for example has a lot of women members. Even if they are in traditional female roles) scarred by the attack on Gaza will possibly end up in future building an even more extreme para military group ( he correctly imo does not like term terrorist)
I find this a bit insulting to Palestinians. Despite what they have been through there basic demands are secular nationalist. The extremes of ISIS never have had a foothold in Palestinian community. Hamas came out of Muslim Brotherhood. Who are pragmatic.
Also the harking on about how Israel is now run by hard line extremists I find a bit irritating. As though it was all nice and cuddly before.
For Palestinians the difference between the hard liners and the "moderates" is not significant. Under Labour Zionism of Israel early years Palestinians were ethnically cleansed from areas/ put under military rule/ shot if tried to return to their land.
What I see is a continuity - Zionism has always been about removing Palestinians from their land to be replaced by Jews.
Rogers is correct to say religion now plays a bigger role. For example when asked why US supports Israel he say US Christian Zionism of Evangelicals is now important at election time.
In fact more so than what he terms Israeli lobby. Which he separates from Jewish people in US. He specifically stated that he does not refer to a Jewish lobby in US as a lot of US Jews oppose what Israel is and has been doing over the years.
He also says in US younger generation are more pro Palestinian rights.
He also refers to the Dahiya doctrine. Which me and other posters have referred to previously. Don't disagree with him on that.
He rightly says air power is now important.
This along with other weapons means that Biden/ US could stop this now by stopping support for supply and finance of weapons to replenish what has been used.
There is an answer its that Biden is not doing it.
The last ten minutes are interesting as Professor Rogers goes into broader picture.
This war is about what he calls "lidism". Not dealing with the underlying problems but using force to keep a "lid" on them.
He sees this getting worse as the have nots suffer and rebel against the adverse circumstances they find themselves in with Neo liberal economics and climate change. With the "haves" trying to keep them out. I agree with his broader analysis. This conflict presages future ones once climate change kicks in more.
It reminds me of Barnaby Raine elsewhere saying the chant "We are all Palestinians " is not that far fetched. If Israel gets away with this with West support then it does not bode well for the rest of the have nots.
Kid_Eternity
Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
More games from Iran.
redsquirrel
This Machine Kills Progressives
It is true that the MB differ from ISIS, just as any within any philosophy there are strands.
But the MB is an Islamist organisation, it wants sharia law to be implemented. While it has moved away from using and advocating political violence against the state, the actions of the Morsi government give an insight as to how it is willing to use violence and oppression when it has the opportunity.
The MB is not ISIS or al-qaeda, but it should not be mistaken as benign.
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CH1
"Red Guard"(NLYL)
"The military rabbinate are preparing for IDF to celebrate Passover in Gaza next year".Israeli press is saying it'll be full steam ahead into mid January, then less bombing and more occupation and mopping up (which Biden will no doubt present as a de-escalation)
That is 22nd April 2024. Don't ask me why Passover is 2 weeks after Good Friday next year - but I'm sure someone may know.
Larry O'Hara
Well-Known Member
And how do you categorise the game whereby the UK arms the Saudis to commit war crimes in the Yemen? Shirards?
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
and indeed they do Why Easter and Passover are observed on different dates each year
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
risk
ska invita
back on the other side
Thanks a lot for summarising it. Ive got two questions:
....where will they be building it? The big question mark in the next year is where will Gazans live/die? Hamas command centre will survive as its based abroad, but with every Gazan in exile and the Gaza strip under permanent IDF occupation for the foreseeable I can't see how they can meaningfully rebuild much.
You are much better read on this than me, but I was under the impression Muslim Brotherhood are far from secular, and likewise Hamas. I thought they both shared a goal of an Islamic state founded on sharia law. They may well be more pragmatic and democratic than the likes of ISIS, but nonetheless they're not secular as far as I was aware
....where will they be building it? The big question mark in the next year is where will Gazans live/die? Hamas command centre will survive as its based abroad, but with every Gazan in exile and the Gaza strip under permanent IDF occupation for the foreseeable I can't see how they can meaningfully rebuild much.
You are much better read on this than me, but I was under the impression Muslim Brotherhood are far from secular, and likewise Hamas. I thought they both shared a goal of an Islamic state founded on sharia law. They may well be more pragmatic and democratic than the likes of ISIS, but nonetheless they're not secular as far as I was aware
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Gramsci
Well-Known Member
Agree with first question. When heard Professor Rogers talk about this I was wondering how. If IDF / Israeli government succeed in flattening Gaza then Hamas could end up like PLO stuck in exile.
On second question.
Im not supporter of Hamas as Im secular for starters.
However as recent poll I posted about show Hamas have support amongst ordinary Palestinians.
Im not an expert on Hamas but have read book Ive done a few posts on.
The recent poll shows Hamas have a bedrock support. Support for them goes up when they take on Israel and stick up for Palestinian people- secular nationalist struggle.
Fatah/PLO / Arafat- the main secular group got caught up with the "peace process". Which as Ive posted the Palestinian American historian Rashid Khalidi ( and Edward Said) saw as a big mistake. Correctly as it turns out. Not having to much of a go at PLO but the lesson of the "peace process" is that Israel are not honest broker.
The so called Peace process let Israel continue in its settlement building with no real state for Palestinians.
Anyway Hamas are popular when they take up issues that Palestinians care about. Secular issues not religious ones. As at this moment.
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Dystopiary
putting up a hook to hang my hopes upon
An investigation by+972 magazine shows further evidence of Israeli authorities being keener to indiscriminately hammer the people (and infrastructure) of Gaza than to save Israeli hostages:
How Israel’s bombing frenzy endangered captives in Gaza
How Israel’s bombing frenzy endangered captives in Gaza
agricola
a genuine importer of owls
His legacy could be far worse than that. If he isn't stopped, I think its not beyond the realms of possibility that Israel will no longer exist.
I hate this idea that the middle-east is a chess board for Iran/America/Saudis running proxies left right and centre. We usually have some standards around scepticism towards conspiracy theories but this one keeps getting a pass. Is Britain a proxy for America? That's about as valid an idea. In any case it's usually the so called proxy tail wagging the dog as they have more control over their immediate locality. Nothing that has happened has been good for Iran or America, their "proxies" are busily embarrassing them.
There's massive spontaneous support for Palestine in Yemen and the Houthis are happy to show up their gulf state enemies by doing something effective. There's no need to reach for the Iran conspiracy explanation.
BTW good for the Houthis.
RhymnRzn
anti-doter
they are staying puffed up to new levels every day, that's for sure
Kid_Eternity
Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
You may change your celebration for them if they cause serious issues in the global trade system. All that happens then is inflation rises and poor people get even more fucked.
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