Kid_Eternity
Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
Was reading the West Bank are surging in support for Hamas and rumours are another uprising is in the offering. Think BN has spectacularly miscalculated this one...
Hamas/Israel conflict: news and discussion
- Thread starter PR1Berske
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Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
You've heard of the 43 group, I expect. Have you ever read about them tho? They didn't start fighting fascists for the lols you know
PTK
Paul Kegan
Sunak enabled this, and Starmer enabled Sunak
Israel-Hamas war live: Some 8,000 people missing in debris from bombing
More than 8,000 people missing in the rubble in Gaza: Hamas
About 70% of the dead and missing are women and children, their bodies trapped in the vast destruction, says Hamas.
Gramsci
Well-Known Member
On the Holocaust and Israel.
Thing is a lot of people went to Israel years after the Holocaust.
The present Ambassador to UK is one of those whose parents were ex USSR ( Georgia). These people were not under threat of extermination by Nazis
With the collapse of USSR Israel took in a lot of ex USSR Jews. Whilst no space for Palestinians.
As a matter of history if one was Jewish in Eastern Europe in WW2 best chance of survival was being in Red Army or USSR controlled area.
As Arno Mayer argues in his book on Holocaust
www.versobooks.com
Whilst a brutal regime it was not about exterminating Jews.
Whilst Holocaust can possibly be used to justify what happened in past I do not think its credible argument now. Nor has been for decades. Particularly the events of 67 and the continued occupation of West Bank and now Gaza.
Even at the time. Tom Segev- one of the New Historians- pointed out when he was growing up in Israel the Holocaust was not central to Israel State. That came later.
That came with the Eichmann trial. His where about had been known for some time.
Trial rather than assassination was done by David Ben Gurion for internal Israeli reasons.
www.haaretz.com
Thing is a lot of people went to Israel years after the Holocaust.
The present Ambassador to UK is one of those whose parents were ex USSR ( Georgia). These people were not under threat of extermination by Nazis
With the collapse of USSR Israel took in a lot of ex USSR Jews. Whilst no space for Palestinians.
As a matter of history if one was Jewish in Eastern Europe in WW2 best chance of survival was being in Red Army or USSR controlled area.
As Arno Mayer argues in his book on Holocaust
Why Did the Heavens Not Darken?
Was the extermination of the Jews part of the Nazi plan from the very start? Arno Mayer offers astartling and compelling answer to this question, which is much debated among historians today.In doing so, he provides one of the most thorough and convincing explanations of how the genocidecame...
www.versobooks.com
Whilst a brutal regime it was not about exterminating Jews.
Whilst Holocaust can possibly be used to justify what happened in past I do not think its credible argument now. Nor has been for decades. Particularly the events of 67 and the continued occupation of West Bank and now Gaza.
Even at the time. Tom Segev- one of the New Historians- pointed out when he was growing up in Israel the Holocaust was not central to Israel State. That came later.
That came with the Eichmann trial. His where about had been known for some time.
Trial rather than assassination was done by David Ben Gurion for internal Israeli reasons.
The Makings of History / Israel's gift to Eichmann
Secrecy breeds wild conspiracy theories - including about Eichmann's involvement in Israel's nuclear program. Where's the brave German archivist who will give the files to WikiLeaks?
On the shooting hostages / anyone who looks a bit funny stories being reported, I wonder what trigger discipline is like in the IDF, isn’t it largely a conscript force?
Thinking about how big organisations behave, prioritising their own reputational survival, one can easily imagine that junior officers sweeping under the carpet all but the most blatant and excessive uses of force be commonplace, with the tacit approval of the top brass.
Thinking about how big organisations behave, prioritising their own reputational survival, one can easily imagine that junior officers sweeping under the carpet all but the most blatant and excessive uses of force be commonplace, with the tacit approval of the top brass.
PTK
Paul Kegan
The phrase "sterile area" used by the IDF reminds me of the "free fire zones" of the USA in Vietnam.
Johnny Vodka
The Abominable Scotsman
Look at the way the Israeli forces behave in the west bank. They obviously are allowed to behave pretty lawlessly; only occasionally is there some hint of an investigation when caught on camera. Maybe there will be more of a need for answers/justice here because ultimately it was Israelis killed rather than Palestinians.
More from the west bank...
‘Israel only responds to force’: support for Hamas soars in West Bank after October attack
Residents of Jenin say Israeli army seems intent only on revenge as they pick through wreckage of their homes
Gramsci
Well-Known Member
Look at the way the Israeli forces behave in the west bank. They obviously are allowed to behave pretty lawlessly; only occasionally is there some hint of an investigation when caught on camera. Maybe there will be more of a need for answers/justice here because ultimately it was Israelis killed rather than Palestinians.
More from the west bank...
‘Israel only responds to force’: support for Hamas soars in West Bank after October attack
Residents of Jenin say Israeli army seems intent only on revenge as they pick through wreckage of their homeswww.theguardian.com
Here is link to poll findings mentioned in the Guardian article:
Press Release: Public Opinion Poll No (90) | PCPSR
Haven't looked at all of it. Took place during the recent ceasefire.
Those interviewed were from West Bank and Gaza
Support for armed struggle/ Support for attack on Israel/ Little support for Abbas and PA/ support for armed struggle against settlers in West Bank/ little criticism of Hamas actions on the October attack.
Hamas are not losing support due to the overwhelming force used in Gaza by IDF. The opposite is the case. So this aspect of the "Dahiya doctrine" of IDF/ Israeli government is not working. That is punishing the civilian population to reduce support for armed groups. Looks to me the opposite is the case.
Also little support for PA taking over in Gaza or Arab force.
Though polling does not say that support for Hamas per se is up. It has its supporters but not all support it in "peacetime" ( peacetime as compared with now). But it is because it is taking on the occupiers- Israel state- that it is getting more support now.
Here is the findings of what Palestinians thought of attack on the 7th October. Support from West Bank and Gaza.
Some of this surprised me. Depth of support for attack on Israel and estimation of Hamas increased for waging armed struggle.
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krtek a houby
Anger is Hi-NRG
The current wave of violence against the people of Gaza is the biggest recruiting tool for Hamas.
Treat people as subhumans for 70 years... don't be too surprised when some start acting badly towards you.
Treat people as subhumans for 70 years... don't be too surprised when some start acting badly towards you.
Boris Sprinkler
Dont be scared
.
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Gramsci
Well-Known Member
Looking more at the recent poll.
This was done face to face ( which given the circumstances shows bravery from those doing the poll). In peoples homes/ at camps for people bombed out of homes. Only bit they could not access safely was very north of Gaza. So as best they were able this is representative cross section.
On Hamas attack.
Their was question on war and international law. Most replied that attacking civilians was wrong. However most either were not aware of allegations against Hamas / had not seen footage/ did not think Hamas had committed atrocities.
Whether this was due to lack of information Im not sure. But those polled did believe international rules of war should be followed.
US, UK and other Western powers have little credibility for making Israel keep to international law on war.
There is support for a two state solution. But a lot do not believe US and others when they say it.
If elections took place tomorrow in West Bank/ Gaza Hamas would win.
Abbas is totally discredited figure. A liability for any hope of Fatah in elections. Most thought he should go.
However for President its a complicated picture.
If the imprisoned Marwan Barghouti stood he would get elected. Highly popular figure with all sides. Not an Islamist. Was in Fatah but left.
en.m.wikipedia.org
Hamas would likely win if he did not stand.
I get the impression from previous reading and this poll that when Hamas do what Fatah should be doing and resist the occupation they get support. Rather than the religious side of it.
www.pcpsr.org
Haniyeh is Hamas candidate.
So Fatah have a problem. No longer seen as sticking up for the Palestinian people.
If International community (US/ Biden) try to foist Abbas and his PA onto Gaza its not going to work. In West Bank he has no credibility as a leader any more.
This was done face to face ( which given the circumstances shows bravery from those doing the poll). In peoples homes/ at camps for people bombed out of homes. Only bit they could not access safely was very north of Gaza. So as best they were able this is representative cross section.
On Hamas attack.
Their was question on war and international law. Most replied that attacking civilians was wrong. However most either were not aware of allegations against Hamas / had not seen footage/ did not think Hamas had committed atrocities.
Whether this was due to lack of information Im not sure. But those polled did believe international rules of war should be followed.
US, UK and other Western powers have little credibility for making Israel keep to international law on war.
There is support for a two state solution. But a lot do not believe US and others when they say it.
If elections took place tomorrow in West Bank/ Gaza Hamas would win.
Abbas is totally discredited figure. A liability for any hope of Fatah in elections. Most thought he should go.
However for President its a complicated picture.
If the imprisoned Marwan Barghouti stood he would get elected. Highly popular figure with all sides. Not an Islamist. Was in Fatah but left.
Marwan Barghouti - Wikipedia
Hamas would likely win if he did not stand.
I get the impression from previous reading and this poll that when Hamas do what Fatah should be doing and resist the occupation they get support. Rather than the religious side of it.
Press Release: Public Opinion Poll No (90) | PCPSR
Haniyeh is Hamas candidate.
So Fatah have a problem. No longer seen as sticking up for the Palestinian people.
If International community (US/ Biden) try to foist Abbas and his PA onto Gaza its not going to work. In West Bank he has no credibility as a leader any more.
mojo pixy
שיר חדש
Yes, a warm sunny country where you can be Jewish in peace and visit Jerusalem as often as you want. Its not hard to see the appeal.
Gramsci
Well-Known Member
I used to know someone from Usbekistan. They had a large Jewish population. Post USSR get the feeling it was that the demise of USSR was such a disaster that Jewish ex USSR went to Israel. It was not due to anti semitism. More due to that Israeli citizenship was available. She remembers them leaving.
My Usbek friend had a certain nostalgia for Soviet days. ( she was not Jewish). Life did not improve when USSR collapsed.
History of the Jews in Uzbekistan - Wikipedia
planetgeli
There's no future in England's dreaming
I see they're bombing Rafah now.
"Safe."
French foreign ministry staffer killed. So France are now calling for a ceasefire. Even Cameron has hardened the language to "a sustainable ceasefire" - pretty please.
Maybe they'll all have a game of footie on Christmas Day eh? Once they've found a hectare or two that hasn't had the shit bombed out of it.
"Safe."
French foreign ministry staffer killed. So France are now calling for a ceasefire. Even Cameron has hardened the language to "a sustainable ceasefire" - pretty please.
Maybe they'll all have a game of footie on Christmas Day eh? Once they've found a hectare or two that hasn't had the shit bombed out of it.
mojo pixy
שיר חדש
I used to know someone from Usbekistan. They had a large Jewish population. Post USSR get the feeling it was that the demise of USSR was such a disaster that Jewish ex USSR went to Israel. It was not due to anti semitism. More due to that Israeli citizenship was available. She remembers them leaving.
My Usbek friend had a certain nostalgia for Soviet days. ( she was not Jewish). Life did not improve when USSR collapsed.
History of the Jews in Uzbekistan - Wikipedia
When I was there I was hearing about a massive influx of ex-soviets (Russians, Belarussians, Uzbeks, Ukrainians etc) since 1990 or so. In downtown Haifa where my other half's family lived (and still live), Russian was very common to hear, lots of signs in Cyrillic script and Russian newspapers and magazines seemed everywhere.
I also heard a lot of those people were quite islamophobic and anti-arab. I was hearing that from native-born Israelis so can't discount it being it's own kind of anti-immigrant prejudice - but if that were true then those people will have raised kids by now and who knows what their attitudes are? Maybe this is part of the Israel we're seeing now, a generation after all those Russians etc settled in.
The Shoah is definitely a strong part of Israel's National Story though, not surprisingly. However I think because of that it's entered the consciousness of Israelis who never actually had / whose families never actually had a personal connection to those events. Yad Vashem being in Jerusalem (as important as the existence of such a place is), and the fact that every Israeli child gets taken there on multiple school trips, has contributed to this IMO.
" sustainable ceasefire"? Sounds like something that nobody can disagree with -and yet less than a week ago the UK went out on a limb with the US in not calling for a ceasefire ?Are they all over the place?
How Israel’s bombing frenzy endangered captives in Gaza
The Israeli army carried out relentless strikes with little intelligence of Israeli hostages’ whereabouts or precaution for their safety.
www.972mag.com
Gramsci
Well-Known Member
Was looking up Tom Segev. As remember him being interviewed and saying when he grew up in Israel the Holocaust wasn't the big thing it is now for Israelis.
When he grew up the history he was taught was that the creation of Israel was a national liberation war against British imperialism. Taught to hate the British.
Later as one of the New Historians saw a much more complex picture of the Mandate. His book on the Mandate One Palestine Complete was recommended to me by a Palestinian.
He is in his own words a Journalistic Historian. I've read One Complete Palestine and it's packed with details and stories of individuals in Palestine. His fascination with it was that it was time when Jews and Arabs lived side by side. Even if not always harmoniously. He brings the period alive. If at times the details push out analysis.
As with other New Historians his work went against the official narrative. Ilan Pappe was another. For Israelis at the time what he and others were writing was controversial. Breaking down the myths of nation building they were taught.
He has different take than Pappe. Being more interested in complexities if the individuals involved.
His take on British was that their wanting the Mandate was not rational power Imperialism politics. That even within the Imperial British their were those who said Palestine was not worth the aggravation.
He says the British were neither pro Arab nor pro Jew. But they were pro British. Which actually some of them said after serving in Palestine.The British on the ground caught between Jews and Arabs.
Unlike Pappe I wouldn't say he was ideological anti Zionist. As Israeli he says he is not post Zionist either.
On Holocaust this is what he says re Israel,
From what I remember him saying of his childhood the Holocaust survivors did not fit the model of heroic workers fighting for and building a new society.
Holocaust also led to David Ben Gurion having to look to Jews of middle east to build new state. Not European Jews. Who had been decimated by Holocaust.
His interview summarising his historical work.
fathomjournal.org
His work is Israeli take on it's history that I'd say is even handed.
When he grew up the history he was taught was that the creation of Israel was a national liberation war against British imperialism. Taught to hate the British.
Later as one of the New Historians saw a much more complex picture of the Mandate. His book on the Mandate One Palestine Complete was recommended to me by a Palestinian.
He is in his own words a Journalistic Historian. I've read One Complete Palestine and it's packed with details and stories of individuals in Palestine. His fascination with it was that it was time when Jews and Arabs lived side by side. Even if not always harmoniously. He brings the period alive. If at times the details push out analysis.
As with other New Historians his work went against the official narrative. Ilan Pappe was another. For Israelis at the time what he and others were writing was controversial. Breaking down the myths of nation building they were taught.
He has different take than Pappe. Being more interested in complexities if the individuals involved.
His take on British was that their wanting the Mandate was not rational power Imperialism politics. That even within the Imperial British their were those who said Palestine was not worth the aggravation.
He says the British were neither pro Arab nor pro Jew. But they were pro British. Which actually some of them said after serving in Palestine.The British on the ground caught between Jews and Arabs.
Unlike Pappe I wouldn't say he was ideological anti Zionist. As Israeli he says he is not post Zionist either.
On Holocaust this is what he says re Israel,
From what I remember him saying of his childhood the Holocaust survivors did not fit the model of heroic workers fighting for and building a new society.
Holocaust also led to David Ben Gurion having to look to Jews of middle east to build new state. Not European Jews. Who had been decimated by Holocaust.
His interview summarising his historical work.
Mandate100 | ‘People say I am a post-Zionist, but I am a non-ideological person, committed to storytelling’: Tom Segev on the British Mandate and David Ben-Gurion
The Israeli historian Tom Segev’s books One Palestine Complete: Jews and Arabs under the British Mandate (2000) and A State at Any Cost: The Life of David Ben-Gurion (2018) have attracted critical ...
fathomjournal.org
His work is Israeli take on it's history that I'd say is even handed.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
Perhaps there are parallels there with the UK and the way that Remembrance (Capital R) has changed here over the decades. From something relatively low-key, commemorating events that were within living memory of many people, with poppies sold on the streets by veterans of the world wars, into something that fetishises those and other wars, in which poppy-wearing is seemingly compulsory on TV, on football shirts, etc, big fuck-off poppies in train stations and the rest of it. Remembrance that is now weaponised, ironically enough, to represent a particular form of patriotism and coopted to explicitly support the UK's more recent and ongoing history of militarism.
As the Holocaust fades from living memory, it is clearly being weaponised by the likes of Netanyahu. It has definitely been coopted to support Israel's ongoing militarism.
As the Holocaust fades from living memory, it is clearly being weaponised by the likes of Netanyahu. It has definitely been coopted to support Israel's ongoing militarism.
ska invita
back on the other side
Israeli press is where the truth lies on all this
Horses mouth... Not an outlier
m.jpost.com
Horses mouth... Not an outlier
Israel should make Gaza look like Auschwitz museum - council head
David Azoulai, head of the Metula Council, proposed sending all Gazans to refugee camps in Lebanon and flattening the whole Strip so it becomes an empty museum like Auschwitz.
m.jpost.com
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tim
EXPLODED TIM! (Help me!!!)
.
French, Dutch, Italian and Belgian government employees under the Nazis or collaborating regimes sent their Jewish co-citizens to the camps in their hundreds of thousands and went back to more conventional work after the War. Maurice Papon was a French Civil Servant, who in 1943, organised the deportation of 1,600 Jews from Bordeaux including children under 13; by 1961 he had become Paris police chief and oversaw a pogrom in which hundreds of Algerians and other Arabs were murdered with many of their corpses dumped in the Seine. In 1981 he was made Minister of the Budget by President Giscard D' Estang; in 1998 he was convicted for war crimes; and in 2002 he was released because of his ill health.
Would you feel safe with a murderous cunt like that being left in a position of authority?
In 1994 I spent five months living in a Polish city called Kielce. A place infamous for having the last Pogrom in Europe. Around fifty Kielcan Jews who had returned from the camps were slaughtered after rumours were spread that they had sacrificed a Christian child. Even in the 1990s there were plenty of antiSemitic comments.
www.smithsonianmag.com
French, Dutch, Italian and Belgian government employees under the Nazis or collaborating regimes sent their Jewish co-citizens to the camps in their hundreds of thousands and went back to more conventional work after the War. Maurice Papon was a French Civil Servant, who in 1943, organised the deportation of 1,600 Jews from Bordeaux including children under 13; by 1961 he had become Paris police chief and oversaw a pogrom in which hundreds of Algerians and other Arabs were murdered with many of their corpses dumped in the Seine. In 1981 he was made Minister of the Budget by President Giscard D' Estang; in 1998 he was convicted for war crimes; and in 2002 he was released because of his ill health.
Would you feel safe with a murderous cunt like that being left in a position of authority?
In 1994 I spent five months living in a Polish city called Kielce. A place infamous for having the last Pogrom in Europe. Around fifty Kielcan Jews who had returned from the camps were slaughtered after rumours were spread that they had sacrificed a Christian child. Even in the 1990s there were plenty of antiSemitic comments.
Kielce: The Post-Holocaust Pogrom That Poland Is Still Fighting Over
After World War II, Jewish refugees found they could never return to their native land—a sentiment that some echo today
Gramsci
Well-Known Member
On the poll.
Just been watching Owen Jones interview Professor Paul Rogers on his channel.
Its very good but had to turn it off as my blood pressure is rising again, Not that Owen Jones and Rogers are wrong. Its the injustice of it all and lack of support from West.
Reminded me of one of the poll findings Ive posted up this thread.
For years the settlers have had it coming for them. They have been terrorising unarmed Palestinian farmers for years. Supported by Israeli governments since 67.
These are illegal settlements.
If a two state solution is what is going to happen then they have to go.
If international community wanted to help the Palestinians to resist this , as they do for Ukrainians , they would supply Palestinians with the weapons to do the job.
Palestinians want to take on a hard right racist government who are killing them and pushing them off their land. Do they like the Ukrainians not deserve support?
Just been watching Owen Jones interview Professor Paul Rogers on his channel.
Its very good but had to turn it off as my blood pressure is rising again, Not that Owen Jones and Rogers are wrong. Its the injustice of it all and lack of support from West.
Reminded me of one of the poll findings Ive posted up this thread.
For years the settlers have had it coming for them. They have been terrorising unarmed Palestinian farmers for years. Supported by Israeli governments since 67.
These are illegal settlements.
If a two state solution is what is going to happen then they have to go.
If international community wanted to help the Palestinians to resist this , as they do for Ukrainians , they would supply Palestinians with the weapons to do the job.
Palestinians want to take on a hard right racist government who are killing them and pushing them off their land. Do they like the Ukrainians not deserve support?
goldenecitrone
post tenebras lux
Israeli press is where the truth lies on all this
Horses mouth... Not an outlier
Israel should make Gaza look like Auschwitz museum - council head
David Azoulai, head of the Metula Council, proposed sending all Gazans to refugee camps in Lebanon and flattening the whole Strip so it becomes an empty museum like Auschwitz.
There's an interesting doctorate in this, similar to how some abused kids turn into paedophiles in adulthood.
two sheds
Least noticed poster 2007
Two-state solution would mean relocating 200,000 settlers, says Israeli lawyer who has David Cameron’s ear
Lawyer who has advised foreign secretary says Israel has the capacity, but not the will, to relocate even one settler
They could do it if they wanted to, then.
cupid_stunt
Chief seagull hater & farmerbarleymow's nemesis.
Some common sense from Ben Wallace, writing in the Telegraph, with comparisons between Northern Ireland and this situation.
Worth reading in full TBH, archive link -
Worth reading in full TBH, archive link -
Netanyahu’s tactics are weakening Israel
Hamas’s jihadist ideology must be defeated – but Israel’s methods will only boost that hate-filled creedSimilar threads
