Hamas/Israel conflict: news and discussion

[Pickman's model]

TBF I think that lets them off a lot of their responsibility here, suggesting that they've trapped themselves. Even the nonsense position they've taken - that we support Israel in defending themselves as long as they do so legally - is not one that traps anyone; the obvious get-out is that the Israelis are breaching international law so we cannot support the ongoing acts and call for a ceasefire. We've had multiple daily examples of obvious breaches of international law by the Israeli government for more than two months now, so that they haven't changed course says pretty clearly that the Labour leadership are in favour of what is being done in Palestine.

They do all think the AS stuff was critical in getting rid of Corbs, but even that is mainly an ego thing given that it was the one thing they can lay claim to that they did to get rid of him that didn't lead to them being ridiculed. In reality none of it had that much of an effect - the obvious splits in Labour, Brexit and the unprecedented support thrown behind Johnson in the 2019 election was what got rid of him in the end.

i don't want to let them off in the slightest, they're a bunch of cunts. but i think that that use of accusations of a-s was not only useful to them in attacking jc, but also in promoting a rw agenda in support of the zionists. what they're saying now shouldn't come as any surprise to people who've watched them hunt out left-wing jews from the labour party on the basis that they're anti-semitic. the people who've had a really nasty shock are people in the lp who thought - fuck knows why - that the lp leadership under shammer might be on the side of the angels: in particular the muslim councillors and voters who seem to have forgotten where the lp stood in regard to muslims under the blair administration. yeh, shammer and the lp leadership are in favour of what's happening in palestine. whether their support is shared by labour supporters - or former labour supporters - will be interesting to see at the ge

 

[Kid_Eternity]

Normally self determination works by the oppressed group claiming the right to lands they live on. It does not involve stealing land off other people.

Not the point being made but land isn’t a requirement of self determinatio.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Not the point being made but land isn’t a requirement of self determinatio.

What does self-determination without land look like?

 

[Pickman's model]

Not the point being made but land isn’t a requirement of self determinatio.

it really is. and you'd realise this if you had half the wit of a gnat.

 

[planetgeli]

What does self-determination without land look like?

Kid_Eternity version of self-determination.

 

[Larry O'Hara]

Administrative Detention.

The practise of locking people up, without trial, and without access to the evidence against them.

To the surprise of probably nobody, this started under the British Mandate in 1945. We have all the best ideas. It has continued ever since. It is meant to be a last resort measure, when their is a real presence of danger and no other way of dealing with that than detention.

Since October 7th, Israel has been locking up Palestinians under this order at a higher rate than ever. There are now 2800 in prison. On October 7th, there were 1300. 1300 was already a 30 year high. And since then, Israel has admitted putting prisons into 'emergency mode', whereby the living conditions of prisoners are reduced. This includes, but is not limited to, the removal of bedsheets, blankets, extra clothes and food rations, and all contact with the outside world. And that's just what they admit to. (Other detainees have alleged they have been beaten, tear-gassed and had dogs set on them).

But wait. There are defenders of this. Meet Maurice Hirsch, former director of military prosecutions in the West Bank, 2013-2016. He says - Israel was "not only meeting international law but far surpassing it", by allowing detainees to appeal and ensuring that their detentions were reviewed every six months.

Sounds reasonable. Until you realise that detainees cannot effectively defend themselves, or appeal, because they have no access to the evidence against them.

Military courts have a 99% conviction rate.

But Hirsch has more. "We see administrative detention being used by the Americans in Guantanamo, so we know that this measure is internationally recognised and accepted," he added. "And since this is an internationally accepted measure, why should it be only Israel that is prevented from using it?"

G-Bay. The justification.

So you may get released after 6 months. You may not. It may be a year. It may be 2 years. You don't know. You live, in hell, with uncertainty. And when (if) you do get released it is just into a bigger prison. The second State prison we call Palestine.

Full article here from the communists at the BBC. But I think I've summarized it well for you.

How Israel jails hundreds of Palestinians without charge

Human rights groups say Israel is abusing a security law inherited from the British to strip due process.

www.bbc.co.uk

These people are, in fact, hostages and should be referred to as such

 

[Yossarian]

Israeli troops are firing so freely that they're killing hostages

The army’s chief spokesman, Rear Adm. Daniel Hagari, says Israeli troops found the hostages Friday and erroneously identified them as a threat. He said it was not clear if they had escaped their captors or been abandoned.

Israeli military says it mistakenly killed 3 Israeli hostages in battle-torn part of Gaza

The Israeli military on Friday mistakenly killed three Israeli hostages during its ground operation in the Gaza Strip, military officials said.

apnews.com

 

[Pickman's model]

Israeli troops are firing so freely that they're killing hostages

The army’s chief spokesman, Rear Adm. Daniel Hagari, says Israeli troops found the hostages Friday and erroneously identified them as a threat. He said it was not clear if they had escaped their captors or been abandoned.

Israeli military says it mistakenly killed 3 Israeli hostages in battle-torn part of Gaza

The Israeli military on Friday mistakenly killed three Israeli hostages during its ground operation in the Gaza Strip, military officials said.

apnews.com

And they've killed at least 13 of their own colleagues

 

[Mezzer]

Israeli troops are firing so freely that they're killing hostages

The army’s chief spokesman, Rear Adm. Daniel Hagari, says Israeli troops found the hostages Friday and erroneously identified them as a threat. He said it was not clear if they had escaped their captors or been abandoned.

Israeli military says it mistakenly killed 3 Israeli hostages in battle-torn part of Gaza

The Israeli military on Friday mistakenly killed three Israeli hostages during its ground operation in the Gaza Strip, military officials said.

apnews.com

TBH I'm very surprised that they've admitted to that. Wonder why they didn't cover it up. It's what we've come to expect, after all.

 

[JimW]

So much death and to spare everyone can have a taste.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Erroneously identified a group of unarmed civilians in Gaza as a threat, and killed them. For the 1,031st time since 7 October.

 

[Pickman's model]

TBH I'm very surprised that they've admitted to that. Wonder why they didn't cover it up. It's what we've come to expect, after all.

Presumably too many people knew.

 

[weltweit]

I think there is news fatigue now. I certainly am feeling it.

Today I heard an Israel spokesman said they needed months more of this to defeat Hamas.

I am already paying less attention to Ukraine, and now less to Gaza also.

But it disgusts me what Israel is doing. And the doublespeak of their spokesmen like Regev.

 

[agricola]

According to this report in Israel Hayom, they were killed because....

IDF spokesperson Daniel Hagari announces a tragic incident in Gaza's Shuja'iyya neighborhood during which IDF troops mistakenly identified three hostages as terrorists and shot them dead. According to an initial after-action review, the hostages had managed to escape their captors on Friday morning. When they were discovered by the troops, they were fired upon, as it was believed to be a sterile area that was clear of hostages. Their targeting appeared to be terrorists because there were no good visuals on them, and they could have been wearing clothes that made them appear as locals.

... they looked local.

 

[tim]

The Romany people have been persecuted in many lands. Their ancestors came from left India about one thousand years ago. Should they have the right to "return" to India and carve out a state for themselves?

Romanistan could have been created when Germany and other parts of Eastern and Central Europe was carved up in the aftermath of WW2.

 

[ska invita]

I think there is news fatigue now. I certainly am feeling it.

There's no new news is why, it's just starvation killing displacement and ethnic cleansing here on in. News is over

 

[andysays]

Romanistan could have been created when Germany and other parts of Eastern and Central Europe was carved up in the aftermath of WW2.

That's not really an equivalent to the setting up of the state of Israel though.

As most of the original settlers of that state were from Germany and other parts of Eastern and Central Europe, it would arguably have made more sense (within the logic of early/mid 20th century nation state creation) to have set up a Jewish state when Germany and other parts of Eastern and Central Europe were carved up in the aftermath of WW2.

 

[Duncan2]

The news of the three hostages killed just underlines what should have been obvious from the start - namely that the IDF have no idea who are civilians and who are Hama's.Agricola has said this above.They have to be targeting an entire demographic.

 

[Pickman's model]

The news of the three hostages killed just underlines what should have been obvious from the start - namely that the IDF have no idea who are civilians and who are Hama's.Agricola has said this above.They have to be targeting an entire demographic.

Yeh palestinians

 

[Pickman's model]

Thought one or two people would have commented on reports that ~55% of the bombs dropped on gaza were smart

 

[Cloo]

Israeli troops are firing so freely that they're killing hostages

The army’s chief spokesman, Rear Adm. Daniel Hagari, says Israeli troops found the hostages Friday and erroneously identified them as a threat. He said it was not clear if they had escaped their captors or been abandoned.

Israeli military says it mistakenly killed 3 Israeli hostages in battle-torn part of Gaza

The Israeli military on Friday mistakenly killed three Israeli hostages during its ground operation in the Gaza Strip, military officials said.

apnews.com

This was absolutely always going to fucking happen with Israel's approach. I wouldn't be at all surprised if others are dead and buried in wreckage somewhere. And Hamas of course knew Israel would do this and this would happen, I'm pretty sure.

 

[hitmouse]

According to this report in Israel Hayom, they were killed because....



... they looked local.

"believed to be a sterile area". What a fucking phrase.

 

[Cid]

They were apparently shirtless, one was carrying a white flag and after the first two were shot the third fled to a building where he shouted for help in Hebrew. Then was shot.

Al Jazeera asks legal team to refer journalist’s killing to ICC – as it happened

This blog has now closed. Read our full report on the latest developments here.

www.theguardian.com

 

[agricola]

They were apparently shirtless, one was carrying a white flag and after the first two were shot the third fled to a building where he shouted for help in Hebrew. Then was shot.

Al Jazeera asks legal team to refer journalist’s killing to ICC – as it happened

This blog has now closed. Read our full report on the latest developments here.

www.theguardian.com

From the Guardian's summary of that article:

An initial IDF probe into the hostage killing incident suggests all three men were shirtless, with one carrying a makeshift white flag.

On seeing them, one Israeli soldier shouted “terrorists!” to the other forces, initiating fire at the men, according to reports.

While two hostages were hit immediately and fell to the ground, the third managed to escape into a nearby building where despite pleas in Hebrew, he was also shot and killed, a military official said.

 

[agricola]

Some more on this latest horror, from the Times of Israel. The excerpt below suggests that the IDF do not consider unarmed people in civilian clothing to be potential civilians, which might explain what happened to the hostages:

In Shejaiya, the senior officer says the IDF has not identified any Palestinian civilians in recent days.

The officer says troops have killed at least 38 Palestinian terror operatives in Shejaiya in recent days.

The only people seen wearing civilian clothing have been Hamas operatives, often unarmed. The operatives collect weapons left behind in various buildings, open fire at troops, and then flee again unarmed to another building.

The IDF has also encountered several seemingly unarmed civilians in Shejaiya, who later turned out to be Hamas suicide bombers.

 

[Petcha]

Surely the ginger hair might have been a clue that one of them at least wasn't a Hamas fighter. I mean, the white flag should have been enough of course.

 

[Flavour]

Fucking hell. But as this is kicking off protests in tel Aviv, this may end up being a relatively "good thing" if public pressure on the government to stop the killing steps up

 

[Cid]

'We've only shot terrorists in this area up to now'
'And how do you define terrorists?'
'People in this area who aren't us'
'Why?'
'We've only shot terrorists in this area up to now'

etc

It's fucking obscene.

Fairly sure shooting a surrendering combatant is a war crime in any case.

 

[Sue]

'We've only shot terrorists in this area up to now'
'And how do you define terrorists?'
'People in this area who aren't us'
'Why?'
'We've only short terrorists in this area up to now'

etc

It's fucking obscene.

Fairly sure shooting a surrendering combatant is a war crime in any case.

Seems like international law no longer matters and war crimes are perfectly okay.

 

[nino_savatte]

I remember my reaction when hearing that the IDF was going to bomb the fuck out of Gaza without any consideration for Israelis being held hostage was one of "WTF is wrong with these people?" and thinking how little they care for human lives, including those of their own people..

Israeli state actors (politicians, soldiers and so on) are behaving like a bunch of blindfolded lunatics trying to kill a single fly by smashing the place up with baseball bats, sledgehammers and chainsaws. In the end, they fail to kill the fly.