Hamas/Israel conflict: news and discussion
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ska invita
back on the other side
Kid_Eternity
Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
teqniq
DisMembered
This from yesterday. another war crime:
www.aljazeera.com
Civilians sheltering inside a Gaza school killed execution-style
Witnesses describe scenes of execution-style killings from inside northern Gaza school
PTK
Paul Kegan
Err. . . I think that you will find that it is.
The right of nations to self-determination is the principle that is widely recognised, not the right of any other group. It would be absurd to advocate that any non-national group had the right to form its own state. For a start, there not would be clearly identified territory on which this state could be established.
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belboid
Exasperated, not angry.
Normally self determination works by the oppressed group claiming the right to lands they live on. It does not involve stealing land off other people.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
Yes, without exception, the modern nation state comprises a territory in the control (at least in theory) of a single political authority. That's the most parsimonious definition, I think. Within that, you may have nation-building ideas about national languages or cultures or shared historical myths, but those are not essential to the definition - there are plenty of multilingual, multicultural nation states.
Other kinds of nations and states can of course be imagined, and in the future they may become a reality. But right now, that's not how things work.
Other kinds of nations and states can of course be imagined, and in the future they may become a reality. But right now, that's not how things work.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
None of the injustices suffered by Jewish people over the centuries, even the Holocaust, justifies what has been done to Palestinians.
IMO that has to be the starting point here.
IMO that has to be the starting point here.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
andysays
Love and solidarity
Not much detail so far, but this could be an interesting and unwelcome development if there's any substance to it.
Europe arrests foil alleged Hamas anti-Jewish attack
Boris Sprinkler
Dont be scared
.
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hitmouse
so defeated, thinks it's funny
Hotovely is proper scum (I mean, not surprising for someone in that position, but there you go). Naamod have been protesting her for a few years now:
'Racism isn’t kosher': British Jews protest ongoing embrace of Israeli ambassador
Left-wing activists staged a walkout at an event marking Tzipi Hotovely's first year as Israel's U.K. ambassador, in protest at her hardline views and ties to the far right.
www.972mag.com
Racism isn't Kosher - Na'amod
We need to root out racism from our community. Will you join us and call for communal organisations to no longer host Tzipi Hotovely?
naamod.org.uk
Anyway, posted this over on the UK demos thread, but can't hurt to crosspost here:
Palestine Action Force Fisher German to Cut Ties with Elbit in Latest Victory
Images and videos are available for free, with the relevant credit Palestine Action has received confirmation that the property managers for Elbit Systems’ Shenstone drone factory, Fisher German, have cut […]
www.palestineaction.org
krtek a houby
Merry Xmas!
No prizes for comparisons
www.theguardian.com
Award ceremony suspended after writer compares Gaza to Nazi-era Jewish ghettos
US-Russian journalist Masha Gessen won Germany’s Hannah Arendt prize for political thought
ska invita
back on the other side
Do you know what "cutting ties" means? as in how does that affect Elbit?Anyway, posted this over on the UK demos thread, but can't hurt to crosspost here:
Palestine Action Force Fisher German to Cut Ties with Elbit in Latest Victory
Images and videos are available for free, with the relevant credit Palestine Action has received confirmation that the property managers for Elbit Systems’ Shenstone drone factory, Fisher German, have cut […]
Raheem
Well-Known Member
No prizes for comparisons
Award ceremony suspended after writer compares Gaza to Nazi-era Jewish ghettos
US-Russian journalist Masha Gessen won Germany’s Hannah Arendt prize for political thought
Thank goodness there's nothing in Nazi Germany's treatment of academics that this can be compared to, or else the comparisons might never stop.
hitmouse
so defeated, thinks it's funny
See, up until this happened, I assumed they were basically the landlords for the UAV Engines site in Shenstone, so cutting ties would mean the factory getting evicted. Which isn't just me being daft, e.g. this Freedom article refers to them as Elbit's landlords as well. But that seems to be not what it means, so I suppose it means that they'll have to find a new company to do whatever Fisher German was doing, but presumably they'll now be a much less attractive client if everyone knows that the last people who signed that contract got pressured out of it.
That Freedom article says FG "leases and manages the Shenstone property", so maybe they're looking to sell the site lease to someone else? Fuck knows really, the property management industry is not my strong point. Fisher German's website says "Let's build lasting value together. We have the experience and the expertise to help clients achieve their ambitions", if that helps you work out what they actually do at all? Hopefully some urbs have more understanding of property management than I do.
MickiQ
In My Defence I was left Unsupervised
It will be site services such as maintenance and repair, cleaning the khazi etc. There are loads of companies that do it but given Elbit probably has MOD certified stuff on site whoever takes over will need to be properly vetted so the pool will be smaller. Most likely Elbit will end taking the services in house.
Boris Sprinkler
Dont be scared
I think unwelcome development is already here. Get the Terrorism hype in the media using those puppet states that are in your hand. The ceasefire protests in Copenhagen have been daily since the beginning of the war and are contradicting the governments pro Israel stance. So you have to scare them into supporting the status quo again.
And have just read in Danish news that 2 of those arrested were released the same day without charge.
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andysays
Love and solidarity
sounds like you're right about terrorism hype, and that of course is an unwelcome development in itself.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
The Hamas connection sounds pretty tenuous. Arrests and hearings are shrouded in secrecy. No suggestion that the Danish arrestees are anything to do with Hamas.
Denmark Widens Terror Investigation That Coincides With Arrests Of Alleged Hamas Members In Germany
Denmark Widens Terror Investigation That Coincides With Arrests Of Alleged Hamas Members In Germany
Gramsci
Well-Known Member
Hotovely is proper scum (I mean, not surprising for someone in that position, but there you go). Naamod have been protesting her for a few years now:
'Racism isn’t kosher': British Jews protest ongoing embrace of Israeli ambassador
Left-wing activists staged a walkout at an event marking Tzipi Hotovely's first year as Israel's U.K. ambassador, in protest at her hardline views and ties to the far right.Racism isn't Kosher - Na'amod
We need to root out racism from our community. Will you join us and call for communal organisations to no longer host Tzipi Hotovely?
Anyway, posted this over on the UK demos thread, but can't hurt to crosspost here:
Palestine Action Force Fisher German to Cut Ties with Elbit in Latest Victory
Images and videos are available for free, with the relevant credit Palestine Action has received confirmation that the property managers for Elbit Systems’ Shenstone drone factory, Fisher German, have cut […]
Just to add in Israeli terms she is centre right as she is member of Likud party.
In Israel her views would not be as controversial as they are here
She is outspoken in her views. But in a way I prefer that. She says it how it is.
Party like Likud never had serious interest in a two state solution. At least she says this openly.
As this is the kind of people running Israel the question for me is why our government and the present leadership of Labour party are giving so much support to Israel.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
they have painted themselves into a corner in recent years due to the tactics used against jeremy corbyn.
agricola
a genuine importer of owls
TBF I think that lets them off a lot of their responsibility here, suggesting that they've trapped themselves. Even the nonsense position they've taken - that we support Israel in defending themselves as long as they do so legally - is not one that traps anyone; the obvious get-out is that the Israelis are breaching international law so we cannot support the ongoing acts and call for a ceasefire. We've had multiple daily examples of obvious breaches of international law by the Israeli government for more than two months now, so that they haven't changed course says pretty clearly that the Labour leadership are in favour of what is being done in Palestine.
They do all think the AS stuff was critical in getting rid of Corbs, but even that is mainly an ego thing given that it was the one thing they can lay claim to that they did to get rid of him that didn't lead to them being ridiculed. In reality none of it had that much of an effect - the obvious splits in Labour, Brexit and the unprecedented support thrown behind Johnson in the 2019 election was what got rid of him in the end.
planetgeli
There's no future in England's dreaming
Administrative Detention.
The practise of locking people up, without trial, and without access to the evidence against them.
To the surprise of probably nobody, this started under the British Mandate in 1945. We have all the best ideas. It has continued ever since. It is meant to be a last resort measure, when their is a real presence of danger and no other way of dealing with that than detention.
Since October 7th, Israel has been locking up Palestinians under this order at a higher rate than ever. There are now 2800 in prison. On October 7th, there were 1300. 1300 was already a 30 year high. And since then, Israel has admitted putting prisons into 'emergency mode', whereby the living conditions of prisoners are reduced. This includes, but is not limited to, the removal of bedsheets, blankets, extra clothes and food rations, and all contact with the outside world. And that's just what they admit to. (Other detainees have alleged they have been beaten, tear-gassed and had dogs set on them).
But wait. There are defenders of this. Meet Maurice Hirsch, former director of military prosecutions in the West Bank, 2013-2016. He says - Israel was "not only meeting international law but far surpassing it", by allowing detainees to appeal and ensuring that their detentions were reviewed every six months.
Sounds reasonable. Until you realise that detainees cannot effectively defend themselves, or appeal, because they have no access to the evidence against them.
Military courts have a 99% conviction rate.
But Hirsch has more. "We see administrative detention being used by the Americans in Guantanamo, so we know that this measure is internationally recognised and accepted," he added. "And since this is an internationally accepted measure, why should it be only Israel that is prevented from using it?"
G-Bay. The justification.
So you may get released after 6 months. You may not. It may be a year. It may be 2 years. You don't know. You live, in hell, with uncertainty. And when (if) you do get released it is just into a bigger prison. The second State prison we call Palestine.
Full article here from the communists at the BBC. But I think I've summarized it well for you.
The practise of locking people up, without trial, and without access to the evidence against them.
To the surprise of probably nobody, this started under the British Mandate in 1945. We have all the best ideas. It has continued ever since. It is meant to be a last resort measure, when their is a real presence of danger and no other way of dealing with that than detention.
Since October 7th, Israel has been locking up Palestinians under this order at a higher rate than ever. There are now 2800 in prison. On October 7th, there were 1300. 1300 was already a 30 year high. And since then, Israel has admitted putting prisons into 'emergency mode', whereby the living conditions of prisoners are reduced. This includes, but is not limited to, the removal of bedsheets, blankets, extra clothes and food rations, and all contact with the outside world. And that's just what they admit to. (Other detainees have alleged they have been beaten, tear-gassed and had dogs set on them).
But wait. There are defenders of this. Meet Maurice Hirsch, former director of military prosecutions in the West Bank, 2013-2016. He says - Israel was "not only meeting international law but far surpassing it", by allowing detainees to appeal and ensuring that their detentions were reviewed every six months.
Sounds reasonable. Until you realise that detainees cannot effectively defend themselves, or appeal, because they have no access to the evidence against them.
Military courts have a 99% conviction rate.
But Hirsch has more. "We see administrative detention being used by the Americans in Guantanamo, so we know that this measure is internationally recognised and accepted," he added. "And since this is an internationally accepted measure, why should it be only Israel that is prevented from using it?"
G-Bay. The justification.
So you may get released after 6 months. You may not. It may be a year. It may be 2 years. You don't know. You live, in hell, with uncertainty. And when (if) you do get released it is just into a bigger prison. The second State prison we call Palestine.
Full article here from the communists at the BBC. But I think I've summarized it well for you.
How Israel jails hundreds of Palestinians without charge
Human rights groups say Israel is abusing a security law inherited from the British to strip due process.
www.bbc.co.uk
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
Cos antisemitism, presumably. And nobody has complained about Guantánamo Bay, clearly. It's not been condemned by the UN as an "Ugly chapter of unrelenting human rights violations".
Laughable even on his own laughable terms. Typically slack of the BBC to let the comment pass without adding any comment. 'Balance.'
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