Hamas/Israel conflict: news and discussion

[Dystopiary]

Dwyer and whythethingy were dealt with quite vociferously. I can't make out whether Boris' posts make any sense at all, they're so incoherent, like many of his other posts on other threads.

His posts are antisemitic.

And look how people have responded to anyone who calls this shit out.

Of course criticism of Israel isn't per se antisemitic, and I don't think anyone (bar maybe Platty Sage) has said otherwise afaict, certainly not in recent weeks.

But people should be able to point out someone posting dodgy links (eg warcrime-denying, antisemitic twats like mintpress or Max Blumenthal) or antisemitic tropes without getting accused of supporting genocide. Of course it's gonna put people off posting. Especially when it's only about three people who are prepared to pull anyone up on that shit and get the resultant aggro.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

His posts are antisemitic.

And look how people have responded to anyone who calls this shit out.

Of course criticism of Israel isn't per se antisemitic, and I don't think anyone (bar maybe Platty Sage) has said otherwise afaict, certainly not in recent weeks.

But people should be able to point out someone posting dodgy links (eg warcrime-denying, antisemitic twats like mintpress or Max Blumenthal) or antisemitic tropes without getting accused of supporting genocide. Of course it's gonna put people off posting. Especially when it's only about three people who are prepared to pull anyone up on that shit and get the resultant aggro.

When whylikethis, who is banned currently btw, possibly at his own request, exploded at LDC, eleven posters pulled him up on it. I just went and counted.

And in terms of aggro, I don't see anyone else giving people aggro for pointing out dodgy links, etc, other than wlt himself.

 

[belboid]

His posts are antisemitic.

And look how people have responded to anyone who calls this shit out.

Of course criticism of Israel isn't per se antisemitic, and I don't think anyone (bar maybe Platty Sage) has said otherwise afaict, certainly not in recent weeks.

But people should be able to point out someone posting dodgy links (eg warcrime-denying, antisemitic twats like mintpress or Max Blumenthal) or antisemitic tropes without getting accused of supporting genocide. Of course it's gonna put people off posting. Especially when it's only about three people who are prepared to pull anyone up on that shit and get the resultant aggro.

I'm not disputing that his posts probably are/were - I just don't read them because his comments rarely make any sense. Dwyer and the other one did get called out. I thoroughly agree these things should be called out, vociferously.

 

[cupid_stunt]

When whylikethis, who is banned currently btw, possibly at his own request...

The reason for the one week ban is given as 'PM abuse', so not at their own request.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

The reason for the one week ban is given as 'PM abuse', so not at their own request.

Right ok. I've had PM abuse a couple of times. It's a ridiculous thing to do.

 

[tim]

Is there a missing word here? Mr someone?

"Me" - middle-class, white and bourgeois and it could be added fat fingered.

 

[krtek a houby]

Antisemitic posts and posters should be called out.

And there are a handful. 3, maybe 4 culprits. But at this stage, how can anyone read criticism of the Israeli government and IDF murderers be interpreted as antisemitism?

 

[Pickman's model]

Antisemitic posts and posters should be called out.

And there are a handful. 3, maybe 4 culprits. But at this stage, how can anyone read criticism of the Israeli government and IDF murderers be interpreted as antisemitism?

if they call them jew bastards or similar i think it would stand out, rather than addressing the political nature of the situation and naming them zionist bastards

 

[Pickman's model]

"Me" - middle-class, white and bourgeois and it could be added fat fingered.

and some might say fat-headed

 

[krtek a houby]

if they call them jew bastards or similar i think it would stand out, rather than addressing the political nature of the situation and naming them zionist bastards

Am thinking more of the doubling down "Jewish lobby" twat... but yeah.

 

[Boris Sprinkler]

His posts are antisemitic.

And look how people have responded to anyone who calls this shit out.

Of course criticism of Israel isn't per se antisemitic, and I don't think anyone (bar maybe Platty Sage) has said otherwise afaict, certainly not in recent weeks.

But people should be able to point out someone posting dodgy links (eg warcrime-denying, antisemitic twats like mintpress or Max Blumenthal) or antisemitic tropes without getting accused of supporting genocide. Of course it's gonna put people off posting. Especially when it's only about three people who are prepared to pull anyone up on that shit and get the resultant aggro.

Explain how my posts were anti semetic. I can certainly see how they may be incoherent but my life is so fuck it. But anti semetic, I don’t think so.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Anyhow, the real racism story here is the dehumanisation of Palestinians by Israeli politicians. We've seen many, many examples, describing them from animals to ants.

Meanwhile, people are squeezed further and further south, camping in the streets as winter sets in. And still the bombs rain down.

Gaza’s al-Fukhari is dangerously overcrowded as Israel pushes people south

 

[hitmouse]

Explain how my posts were anti semetic. I can certainly see how they may be incoherent but my life is so fuck it. But anti semetic, I don’t think so.

The distinction between an antizionist argument and an antisemitic one rests on whether it's aimed at the modern-day state of Israel or Jews in general. Bringing up Biblical texts about Jews in the ancient world, as well as being totally irrelevant, is clearly on the wrong side of that line.

 

[Boris Sprinkler]

It’s not irrelevant. It may be irrelevant to those of you with no belief in anything other than being right on a message board. But to those of us that have faith in Allah, Jah, Yehwa, such texts are prescient.
The only anti semites I can see are the Zionist military industrial complex bombing Palestinians whilst occupying their land. I’ve seen none here. Fuck off labelling me racist. Berk.

 

[andysays]

It’s not irrelevant. It may be irrelevant to those of you with no belief in anything other than being right on a message board. But to those of us that have faith in Allah, Jah, Yehwa, such texts are prescient.
The only anti semites I can see are the Zionist military industrial complex bombing Palestinians whilst occupying their land. I’ve seen none here. Fuck off labelling me racist. Berk.

hitmouse isn't labelling you racist, they're calling your posts antisemitic, and I agree.

Just because you say your life is incoherent, you don't get a pass for posting antisemitic crap.

If you can't post coherently without including antisemitic crap, maybe you should do everyone, including yourself, a favour, and give it a rest.

 

[PTK]

It’s not irrelevant. It may be irrelevant to those of you with no belief in anything other than being right on a message board. But to those of us that have faith in Allah, Jah, Yehwa, such texts are prescient.
The only anti semites I can see are the Zionist military industrial complex bombing Palestinians whilst occupying their land. I’ve seen none here. Fuck off labelling me racist. Berk.

"such texts are prescient"

That is a rather stupid thing to believe. The texts would not claim to comment on what will happen a couple of thousand years after they are written, You are reading things into these texts that are not there.

 

[Boris Sprinkler]

"such texts are prescient"

That is a rather stupid thing to believe. The texts would not claim to comment on what will happen a couple of thousand years after they are written, You are reading things into these texts that are not there.

Ok. So you are in a position to label others beliefs as stupid because ?

 

[Pickman's model]

Ok. So you are in a position to label others beliefs as stupid because ?

Sure we all are

 

[Pickman's model]

It’s not irrelevant. It may be irrelevant to those of you with no belief in anything other than being right on a message board. But to those of us that have faith in Allah, Jah, Yehwa, such texts are prescient.
The only anti semites I can see are the Zionist military industrial complex bombing Palestinians whilst occupying their land. I’ve seen none here. Fuck off labelling me racist. Berk.

You've gone done labelled yourself that with your anti-semitic posts

 

[Boris Sprinkler]

hitmouse isn't labelling you racist, they're calling your posts antisemitic, and I agree.

Just because you say your life is incoherent, you don't get a pass for posting antisemitic crap.

If you can't post coherently without including antisemitic crap, maybe you should do everyone, including yourself, a favour, and give it a rest.

I haven’t posted any antisemitic crap.
I’m not going by the newspeak definition though, you may wish to check why it’s brought out as a slur so readily. It’s the language of occupiers. A Palestinian is as much a Semite as an Israeli.

 

[Pickman's model]

I haven’t posted any antisemitic crap.
I’m not going by the newspeak definition though, you may wish to check why it’s brought out as a slur so readily. It’s the language of occupiers. A Palestinian is as much a Semite as an Israeli.

Anti-semitism is widely considered to be racism or discrimination against Jews. Maybe you just need to consult a dictionary. Interesting tho that you conflate nationality with ethnicity - you're saying that any Israeli is a semite. A bold claim but one I look forward to seeing you defend.

 

[Knotted]

Boris Sprinkler I'm not sure what exactly you're driving at and I want to give you the benefit of the doubt but to make any sense of what you are saying there has to be an assumption of a perennial essence of Jewishness to tie 70AD to the modern day. There's no good that can come out of that assumption. (Also that the Arabs are also Semites is an evasion even though it is true - just stop with that one please.)

 

[Gramsci]

The distinction between an antizionist argument and an antisemitic one rests on whether it's aimed at the modern-day state of Israel or Jews in general. Bringing up Biblical texts about Jews in the ancient world, as well as being totally irrelevant, is clearly on the wrong side of that line.

Id agree. But IHRA definition wouldn't.

Being Anti Zionist is going, it can be argued, against the idea of self determination for Jewish people.

For example a One State Solution would no longer be a Zionist state. It would be a state for both Jews and Palestinian.

IHRA example of anti semitism

• Denying the Jewish people their right to self-determination, e.g., by claiming that the existence of a State of Israel is a racist endeavor.

As much as I get annoyed at poster like Tim their is a viewpoint that saying Israel is a settler colonial state is included in this particular definition of anti semitism. As it is saying Zionism is racist. ( not I must add all Israeli citizens. As a generation as grown up in Israel. Some of whom are very critical of the state) So someone like Tim is not saying what they say in a vacuum. There is a rational behind it.

The IHRA example conflates Jews with Zionism. As seen in this example.

Some Jews Ive met are very much opposed to Zionism. Even if they are minority view.

 

[agricola]

Id agree. But IHRA definition wouldn't.

Being Anti Zionist is going, it can be argued, against the idea of self determination for Jewish people.

For example a One State Solution would no longer be a Zionist state. It would be a state for both Jews and Palestinian.

IHRA example of anti semitism



As much as I get annoyed at poster like Tim their is a viewpoint that saying Israel is a settler colonial state is included in this particular definition of anti semitism. As it is saying Zionism is racist. ( not I must add all Israeli citizens. As a generation as grown up in Israel. Some of whom are very critical of the state) So someone like Tim is not saying what they say in a vacuum. There is a rational behind it.

The IHRA example conflates Jews with Zionism. As seen in this example.

Some Jews Ive met are very much opposed to Zionism. Even if they are minority view.

TBF that is such a terribly worded example it has always caused confusion like this.

Yes, attacking the mere idea of a Jewish state (any Jewish state) formed by the self-determination of the Jewish people would be inherently anti-semitic, but that is not the same as attacking the state that exists and its history. Such attacks could be anti-semitic, but not simply by making that argument (that it was imposed by force on much of an already existing population by citizens of other countries).

 

[_Russ_]

Am thinking more of the doubling down "Jewish lobby" twat... but yeah.

Fuck off with your pathetic ego

 

[krtek a houby]

Fuck off with your pathetic ego

Trebling down

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Boris Sprinkler I'm not sure what exactly you're driving at and I want to give you the benefit of the doubt but to make any sense of what you are saying there has to be an assumption of a perennial essence of Jewishness to tie 70AD to the modern day.

I totally agree. This is exactly what the religious Israeli settlers of the West Bank think, though. It underpins a lot of the nastiest strands of Zionism and its justification for ethnic cleansing. It's not so straightforward to label this kind of essentialism antisemitic.

More than that, you will encounter those who will say that to deny it is antisemitic.

 

[Wilf]

In response to nobody in particular , I don't deny the existence of antisemitism on the left. But it always feels like so much energy is wasted amongst the non-antisemitic left having to deny it or work around possible accusations. Even at a time like this. And all of that works to the advantage of a state that is committing mass murder and ethnic cleansing.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Yep. And the israeli state is the racist state here. Let's not forget that.

 

[hitmouse]

Id agree. But IHRA definition wouldn't.

Being Anti Zionist is going, it can be argued, against the idea of self determination for Jewish people.

For example a One State Solution would no longer be a Zionist state. It would be a state for both Jews and Palestinian.

IHRA example of anti semitism



As much as I get annoyed at poster like Tim their is a viewpoint that saying Israel is a settler colonial state is included in this particular definition of anti semitism. As it is saying Zionism is racist. ( not I must add all Israeli citizens. As a generation as grown up in Israel. Some of whom are very critical of the state) So someone like Tim is not saying what they say in a vacuum. There is a rational behind it.

I mean, I don't think that the IHRA definition is good, it's not. But I think the most relevant bit to Tim's criticisms is this:

Applying double standards by requiring of it a behavior not expected or demanded of any other democratic nation.

Like, that one's tricky because I think there is something genuinely dodgy about applying double standards, but that's always very hard to prove either way. Tim reckons that defining Israel as a settler state is a double standard, I don't think that's true.
But also like, I don't think how anyone defines Israel is the most interesting thing, I would say that, whether you understand the contemporary Israeli government as being about capitalism or apartheid or settler colonalism or imperialism or nationalism or whatever else, if you're interested in trying to stop the flow of weapons from the UK to Israel, then we're on the same side in an important way.

I totally agree. This is exactly what the religious Israeli settlers of the West Bank think, though. It underpins a lot of the nastiest strands of Zionism and its justification for ethnic cleansing. It's not so straightforward to label this kind of essentialism antisemitic.

Yeah, it's the worldview shared equally by hardcore Zionists and antisemites, which is what makes it so important to shut that shit down whenever it raises its head.