Hamas/Israel conflict: news and discussion
- Thread starter PR1Berske
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mojo pixy
...שלא נמצא בשמאל
That's not true; something would stop Israel: If the UNSC voted unanimously for a ceasefire, then backed it up with serious economic sanctions and a peacekeeping force in Gaza and the West Bank, Israel would have little choice but to stop.
The real question is, why won't this happen?
The39thStep
Urban critical thinker
Someone posted up really good article recently. Forget who
‘A mass assassination factory’: Inside Israel’s calculated bombing of Gaza
Permissive airstrikes on non-military targets and the use of an AI system have enabled the Israeli army to carry out its deadliest war on Gaza.www.972mag.com
Owen Jones interviewed the writer of it.
One thing at end. Owen asks how his kind of journalism is going in Israel. He says viewpoint of Israelis like him is getting no coverage.
Criticism of IDF is a no no for most journalists.
The reporting of what is happening in Gaza is not the same as in outside Israel. That a lot of Israelis think IDF is not going in hard enough.
His only hope is international community stepping in and making a ceasefire.
He says part of reason he got the info he did is that some in IDF are not comfortable with way targets are chosen. Definitely a change. Now civilian casualties do not matter. Before this present war it was more targeted. With at least some consideration given to "collateral damage". Not now.
Worth a watch and not to long.
me
hitmouse
music obfuscation technology
There's this as well: Worldwide protest/actions concerning events in Gaza/Palestine/Israel
I mean, there's limitations to that formula, though. Are exiles/refugees/diasporas no longer part of a nation? If Israel succeeds in driving all surviving Palestinians into exile, will the Palestinian nation no longer exist? Imo, a nation is whatever nationalists say it is, I'm not convinced there's a standard of "real" nations that we can measure against.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
I think the 'r' was meant to be an 'e'
Accusing people who campaign for the Palestinian cause of having issues with Jews is as sensible as accusing people who campaigned against apartheid in South Africa of having issues with white people. It's bollocks.
hitmouse
music obfuscation technology
I mean, on one hand that's true, there's no automatic link there, but on the other there have been at least three pretty open antisemites posting on this thread that I can think of, so that is something to bear in mind. (One currently on a site ban, one definitely not, I've not been keeping track closely enough to see if dwyer's banned from this one as well.) I think it's bollocks in general, but that line of argument does feel a bit more convincing when, within the last 24 hours, this thread has had people banging on about the expulsion of Jews from ancient Israel/Palestine.I think the 'r' was meant to be an 'e'
Accusing people who campaign for the Palestinian cause of having issues with Jews is as sensible as accusing people who campaigned against apartheid in South Africa of having issues with white people. It's bollocks.
Larry O'Hara
Well-Known Member
Yes the US did that. So that should be cancelled. However unlikely, that answers your question
planetgeli
There's no future in England's dreaming
But again, people or person? And if it is people, is it a whole brigade of the BNP we can't possibly deal with?
Tarring the whole issue with 'you must be anti-semitic' does a real injustice to those, the 99%, who don't 'have a problem' with Jews. Where does this criticism leave people like my b-i-l, a Jew, who I posted a picture of on the demo thread. Actually, fwiw, he does have a problem with some Jews. They're called his (elderly) parents, right-wing full on Zionist supporters of everything that is going on in Gaza and elsewhere now. Obviously he doesn't have a problem with 'Jews'. He's just a decent, right-minded bloke with a thing about genocide.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
I have definitely noticed a growing visibly Jewish presence on the demos. And I've never seen an ounce of anti-Jewish feeling. I don't know how many of the organisers and young people doing the stewarding are Jewish. My guess is that there are quite a few. Understandably, this is an issue that many Jewish people think about a lot, reaching many differing conclusions. It is also an issue that unites people of all backgrounds, as we have seen on the demos.
Rob Ray
Weight is meaningless
Italy, France and Germany call on EU to impose 'an ad hoc sanctions regime' against Hamas
Begs the question what exactly are they planning on sanctioning, given that the only things currently allowed through the blockade are heavily monitored and entirely inadequate medical, water, food and fuel supplies. Wellwishes? Hot air? Pathetic delusions of grandeur going on here.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
Two months in to the genocide and they're making an international statement of solidarity with Israel. World has gone quite mad.
Wilf
Slouching towards Billingham
So, if you came across a house on fire, blazing away, you'd probably set the shed on fire as well? 'It was already burning, so what difference did my wee bit of arson make'?
Not so much flawed logic as a pure justification for Canadian arms sales to Israel on your part. Which by the way appear to be increasing:
Canada’s arms exports to Israel at the third-highest level on record, amid heightened violence
Canadians for Justice and Peace in the Middle East (CJPME) is extremely concerned to learn that Canada sent more than $20 million in military exports to Israel last year, despite Israel’s 3-day bombing of the occupied Gaza Strip and heightened Israeli violence in the occupied West Bank...
www.cjpme.org
Kevbad the Bad
Amiable Bowel Syndrome
It's not surprising that people ask questions like that sometimes, even if they could easily look it up themselves, when some Zionists bang on about the very same subject.
hitmouse
music obfuscation technology
Yes it fucking it is, it's bonkers. And "Zionists talk about it too" is no defence, it is in fact extremely easy to oppose a certain worldview without having to frame your thoughts through that worldview.
Monkeygrinder's Organ
Dodgy geezer swilling vapid lager
Deleted: turns out this is not the cricket thread.
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ska invita
back on the other side
'theatre' best describes huge swathes of parliamentary politics these days
Wilf
Slouching towards Billingham
Yes, quite a bold post!
Kevbad the Bad
Amiable Bowel Syndrome
I didn't say it wasn't bonkers. I said it wasn't surprising.
hitmouse
music obfuscation technology
Well, maybe be a bit more active about dealing with them then?
Is anyone on here actually arguing that though? AFAIK, this argument is about comments from tim, who thinks that the "settler state" framing is exceptionalist and (potentially?) antisemitic. I don't think that, I think it's probably quite an accurate framing, but I also think the theoretical framework you use is less interesting/important than the actual political goals you want to achieve. And tim's take on that seems quite reasonable to me:
So tim clearly isn't saying that it's antisemitic to want the Israelis to stop murdering in Gaza and the West Bank and to want the Israeli ethnostate replaced by a unitary state with full rights for Palestinians.
Monkeygrinder's Organ
Dodgy geezer swilling vapid lager
Haha oops. If you're going to stick something in the wrong thread, why not go for the most contentious one possible?
planetgeli
There's no future in England's dreaming
That sounds personal. I've had a fucking shit year, my gf is dead and I'm not on here or in the right headspace to deal with shit I'd hope wasn't beyond you.
In fact, it's comments like that that make me want to fuck off from here more than 1 or 2 blatantly dodgy posts other people could easily deal with.
Honestly, if that was personal, then fuck you too.
Gramsci
Well-Known Member
That's if you take everything tim says as said in good faith. I don't. Pops up on regular basis on this thread.
It's same as everyone wants a two state solution. Yet it never happens.
It's just talk to make one look reasonable.
I think theoretical framework one uses does influence what outcomes one would like to see
Larry O'Hara
Well-Known Member
Sorry to hear about your personal situation. I put people on ignore because they are either bell-ends or tedious RS (LFC) supporters, and sometimes both of course. I have hitmouse on ignore (cant now remember why) and suggest you follow suit rather than ignore serious posters
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
Yeah this is out of line. Demanding that other posters 'deal with things'? From what I've seen, when someone has been abusive or posted links from dodgy sources, there have been plenty of people intervening.
It is also the case that not everyone is going to agree about who is or is not an antisemite, open or otherwise. I suspect that there is at least one poster here who you think falls into that category who I don't. Being out of order with people and even posting links from dodgy sources don't automatically make you an antisemite.
And I know I've contributed to this, but on a thread such as this about important shit, where imo there has been very little antisemitism, turning the discussion into one about antisemitism is really counterproductive. I'll try to refrain from posting more about it.
belboid
Exasperated, not angry.
Dwyer and whythethingy were dealt with quite vociferously. I can't make out whether Boris' posts make any sense at all, they're so incoherent, like many of his other posts on other threads.
Wilf
Slouching towards Billingham
Which makes his belief that referring to a settler state = antisemitism even more bizarre. And deeply unpleasant.
hitmouse
music obfuscation technology
Apologies - I think I had seen that thread but forgot that it was you. Not trying to have a personal go at you or to contribute to the shittiness of your year at all.
In the spirit of reminding each other of things that it's easy to forget about relative strangers on the internet, I'd just like to stress that I have been an active participant in irl Palestine solidarity stuff where I live, and so everything I write on here is coming from the perspective of someone who is a part of the movement, not an external attack on it. I would hope people read my posts with that in mind, but obviously we can't control what context people do or don't have in mind.
If anyone's interested, it's cos I made fun of an imperialist nepotism baby who's dad's mates with the Clintons. Not very important in the grand scheme of things, but there you go.
All three of those people had conflated the state of Israel with "Jews" as a general category. That's the logic of Zionists and antisemites, and I don't think any of those posters are Zionists.
Yeah, I accept the general point that the early-to-mid twentieth century (in fact, probably all of it) saw plenty of states formed by processes that involved massacres, ethnic cleansing, resettling and so on, and I think it is important to see Israel as being mostly a product of the same forces of capitalism, imperialism, etc that shape the rest of the world, not some ahistorical evil from outside it, BUT I think the majority of those states were formed with a population that was mostly people already living in the region, not mostly people arriving from outside and pushing the previous population out, so it does make sense to use a different category to refer to Israel as opposed to Greece or Pakistan. I think, not an expert on comparative state formation or anything though.
Gramsci
Well-Known Member
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