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Hamas/Israel conflict: news and discussion

It is really not that simple.

Nation words will not stop Israel.

Un resolutions will not stop Israel.

No-one and nothing will stop Israel.

That's not true; something would stop Israel: If the UNSC voted unanimously for a ceasefire, then backed it up with serious economic sanctions and a peacekeeping force in Gaza and the West Bank, Israel would have little choice but to stop.

The real question is, why won't this happen?
 
Someone posted up really good article recently. Forget who


Owen Jones interviewed the writer of it.

One thing at end. Owen asks how his kind of journalism is going in Israel. He says viewpoint of Israelis like him is getting no coverage.

Criticism of IDF is a no no for most journalists.

The reporting of what is happening in Gaza is not the same as in outside Israel. That a lot of Israelis think IDF is not going in hard enough.

His only hope is international community stepping in and making a ceasefire.

He says part of reason he got the info he did is that some in IDF are not comfortable with way targets are chosen. Definitely a change. Now civilian casualties do not matter. Before this present war it was more targeted. With at least some consideration given to "collateral damage". Not now.

Worth a watch and not to long.


me
 
I was on a demo in Calgary today:

View attachment 403860

Here is probably the wrong thread but the other one is for UK demos.
There's this as well: Worldwide protest/actions concerning events in Gaza/Palestine/Israel
"what happen 1947-1948 was a successful war of national liberation"

No, it was not. There was no Israeli Jewish nation in 1948. The people who fought the war on the Zionist side were overwhelmingly immigrants from Europe. Since 1948, an Israeli Jewish nation has come into existence, but prior to that it would be untrue to call it a nation.

A nation is an historically evolved group of people sharing a common language, a common culture, and a common territory.
I mean, there's limitations to that formula, though. Are exiles/refugees/diasporas no longer part of a nation? If Israel succeeds in driving all surviving Palestinians into exile, will the Palestinian nation no longer exist? Imo, a nation is whatever nationalists say it is, I'm not convinced there's a standard of "real" nations that we can measure against.
 
I think white European bourgeois posters here who single out Israel as uniquely different from other may have issues with Jews, consciously or unconsciously or more realistically haven't reflected enough upon their own attitudes. All or none of the adjectives above, by the way, may, by apply to you. They certainly define Mr
Is there a missing word here? Mr someone?
 
I think the 'r' was meant to be an 'e' ;)

Accusing people who campaign for the Palestinian cause of having issues with Jews is as sensible as accusing people who campaigned against apartheid in South Africa of having issues with white people. It's bollocks.
I mean, on one hand that's true, there's no automatic link there, but on the other there have been at least three pretty open antisemites posting on this thread that I can think of, so that is something to bear in mind. (One currently on a site ban, one definitely not, I've not been keeping track closely enough to see if dwyer's banned from this one as well.) I think it's bollocks in general, but that line of argument does feel a bit more convincing when, within the last 24 hours, this thread has had people banging on about the expulsion of Jews from ancient Israel/Palestine.
 
It is a genuine question.



As for your response of stop supplying arms, it really does not matter if a country stops supplying arms.

The US of A just past a bill giving $14.5 billion for Israel military aid.
Yes the US did that. So that should be cancelled. However unlikely, that answers your question
 
I mean, on one hand that's true, there's no automatic link there, but on the other there have been at least three pretty open antisemites posting on this thread that I can think of, so that is something to bear in mind. (One currently on a site ban, one definitely not, I've not been keeping track closely enough to see if dwyer's banned from this one as well.) I think it's bollocks in general, but that line of argument does feel a bit more convincing when, within the last 24 hours, this thread has had people banging on about the expulsion of Jews from ancient Israel/Palestine.

But again, people or person? And if it is people, is it a whole brigade of the BNP we can't possibly deal with?

Tarring the whole issue with 'you must be anti-semitic' does a real injustice to those, the 99%, who don't 'have a problem' with Jews. Where does this criticism leave people like my b-i-l, a Jew, who I posted a picture of on the demo thread. Actually, fwiw, he does have a problem with some Jews. They're called his (elderly) parents, right-wing full on Zionist supporters of everything that is going on in Gaza and elsewhere now. Obviously he doesn't have a problem with 'Jews'. He's just a decent, right-minded bloke with a thing about genocide.
 
I have definitely noticed a growing visibly Jewish presence on the demos. And I've never seen an ounce of anti-Jewish feeling. I don't know how many of the organisers and young people doing the stewarding are Jewish. My guess is that there are quite a few. Understandably, this is an issue that many Jewish people think about a lot, reaching many differing conclusions. It is also an issue that unites people of all backgrounds, as we have seen on the demos.
 
Italy, France and Germany call on EU to impose 'an ad hoc sanctions regime' against Hamas
“The swift adoption of this sanctions regime will enable us to send a strong political message about the EU’s commitment against Hamas and our solidarity with Israel,”
Begs the question what exactly are they planning on sanctioning, given that the only things currently allowed through the blockade are heavily monitored and entirely inadequate medical, water, food and fuel supplies. Wellwishes? Hot air? Pathetic delusions of grandeur going on here.
 
It is a genuine question.



As for your response of stop supplying arms, it really does not matter if a country stops supplying arms.

The US of A just past a bill giving $14.5 billion for Israel military aid.
So, if you came across a house on fire, blazing away, you'd probably set the shed on fire as well? 'It was already burning, so what difference did my wee bit of arson make'?

Not so much flawed logic as a pure justification for Canadian arms sales to Israel on your part. Which by the way appear to be increasing:
 
I mean, on one hand that's true, there's no automatic link there, but on the other there have been at least three pretty open antisemites posting on this thread that I can think of, so that is something to bear in mind. (One currently on a site ban, one definitely not, I've not been keeping track closely enough to see if dwyer's banned from this one as well.) I think it's bollocks in general, but that line of argument does feel a bit more convincing when, within the last 24 hours, this thread has had people banging on about the expulsion of Jews from ancient Israel/Palestine.
It's not surprising that people ask questions like that sometimes, even if they could easily look it up themselves, when some Zionists bang on about the very same subject.
 
It's not surprising that people ask questions like that sometimes, even if they could easily look it up themselves, when some Zionists bang on about the very same subject.
Yes it fucking it is, it's bonkers. And "Zionists talk about it too" is no defence, it is in fact extremely easy to oppose a certain worldview without having to frame your thoughts through that worldview.
 
But again, people or person? And if it is people, is it a whole brigade of the BNP we can't possibly deal with?
Well, maybe be a bit more active about dealing with them then?
Tarring the whole issue with 'you must be anti-semitic' does a real injustice to those, the 99%, who don't 'have a problem' with Jews.
Is anyone on here actually arguing that though? AFAIK, this argument is about comments from tim, who thinks that the "settler state" framing is exceptionalist and (potentially?) antisemitic. I don't think that, I think it's probably quite an accurate framing, but I also think the theoretical framework you use is less interesting/important than the actual political goals you want to achieve. And tim's take on that seems quite reasonable to me:
This means getting the Israelis to stop murdering in Gaza and the West Bank, and n the longer the creation of two viable states or maybe the more idealistic but, perhaps, increasingly more viable pluralistic unitary state.
So tim clearly isn't saying that it's antisemitic to want the Israelis to stop murdering in Gaza and the West Bank and to want the Israeli ethnostate replaced by a unitary state with full rights for Palestinians.
 
Without the link, the commentary just feels like it could be a very abstract metaphor that could work in most if not all threads tbf.
 
Well, maybe be a bit more active about dealing with them then?

That sounds personal. I've had a fucking shit year, my gf is dead and I'm not on here or in the right headspace to deal with shit I'd hope wasn't beyond you.

In fact, it's comments like that that make me want to fuck off from here more than 1 or 2 blatantly dodgy posts other people could easily deal with.

Honestly, if that was personal, then fuck you too.
 
Well, maybe be a bit more active about dealing with them then?

Is anyone on here actually arguing that though? AFAIK, this argument is about comments from tim, who thinks that the "settler state" framing is exceptionalist and (potentially?) antisemitic. I don't think that, I think it's probably quite an accurate framing, but I also think the theoretical framework you use is less interesting/important than the actual political goals you want to achieve. And tim's take on that seems quite reasonable to me:

So tim clearly isn't saying that it's antisemitic to want the Israelis to stop murdering in Gaza and the West Bank and to want the Israeli ethnostate replaced by a unitary state with full rights for Palestinians.

That's if you take everything tim says as said in good faith. I don't. Pops up on regular basis on this thread.

It's same as everyone wants a two state solution. Yet it never happens.

It's just talk to make one look reasonable.

I think theoretical framework one uses does influence what outcomes one would like to see
 
That sounds personal. I've had a fucking shit year, my gf is dead and I'm not on here or in the right headspace to deal with shit I'd hope wasn't beyond you.

In fact, it's comments like that that make me want to fuck off from here more than 1 or 2 blatantly dodgy posts other people could easily deal with.

Honestly, if that was personal, then fuck you too.
Sorry to hear about your personal situation. I put people on ignore because they are either bell-ends or tedious RS (LFC) supporters, and sometimes both of course. I have hitmouse on ignore (cant now remember why) and suggest you follow suit rather than ignore serious posters
 
Well, maybe be a bit more active about dealing with them then?
Yeah this is out of line. Demanding that other posters 'deal with things'? From what I've seen, when someone has been abusive or posted links from dodgy sources, there have been plenty of people intervening.

It is also the case that not everyone is going to agree about who is or is not an antisemite, open or otherwise. I suspect that there is at least one poster here who you think falls into that category who I don't. Being out of order with people and even posting links from dodgy sources don't automatically make you an antisemite.

And I know I've contributed to this, but on a thread such as this about important shit, where imo there has been very little antisemitism, turning the discussion into one about antisemitism is really counterproductive. I'll try to refrain from posting more about it.
 
So tim clearly isn't saying that it's antisemitic to want the Israelis to stop murdering in Gaza and the West Bank and to want the Israeli ethnostate replaced by a unitary state with full rights for Palestinians.
Which makes his belief that referring to a settler state = antisemitism even more bizarre. And deeply unpleasant.
 
That sounds personal. I've had a fucking shit year, my gf is dead and I'm not on here or in the right headspace to deal with shit I'd hope wasn't beyond you.

In fact, it's comments like that that make me want to fuck off from here more than 1 or 2 blatantly dodgy posts other people could easily deal with.

Honestly, if that was personal, then fuck you too.
Apologies - I think I had seen that thread but forgot that it was you. Not trying to have a personal go at you or to contribute to the shittiness of your year at all.

In the spirit of reminding each other of things that it's easy to forget about relative strangers on the internet, I'd just like to stress that I have been an active participant in irl Palestine solidarity stuff where I live, and so everything I write on here is coming from the perspective of someone who is a part of the movement, not an external attack on it. I would hope people read my posts with that in mind, but obviously we can't control what context people do or don't have in mind.
I have hitmouse on ignore (cant now remember why) and suggest you follow suit rather than ignore serious posters
If anyone's interested, it's cos I made fun of an imperialist nepotism baby who's dad's mates with the Clintons. Not very important in the grand scheme of things, but there you go.
Yeah this is out of line. Demanding that other posters 'deal with things'? From what I've seen, when someone has been abusive or posted links from dodgy sources, there have been plenty of people intervening.

It is also the case that not everyone is going to agree about who is or is not an antisemite, open or otherwise. I suspect that there is at least one poster here who you think falls into that category who I don't. Being out of order with people and even posting links from dodgy sources don't automatically make you an antisemite.
All three of those people had conflated the state of Israel with "Jews" as a general category. That's the logic of Zionists and antisemites, and I don't think any of those posters are Zionists.
Which makes his belief that referring to a settler state = antisemitism even more bizarre. And deeply unpleasant.
Yeah, I accept the general point that the early-to-mid twentieth century (in fact, probably all of it) saw plenty of states formed by processes that involved massacres, ethnic cleansing, resettling and so on, and I think it is important to see Israel as being mostly a product of the same forces of capitalism, imperialism, etc that shape the rest of the world, not some ahistorical evil from outside it, BUT I think the majority of those states were formed with a population that was mostly people already living in the region, not mostly people arriving from outside and pushing the previous population out, so it does make sense to use a different category to refer to Israel as opposed to Greece or Pakistan. I think, not an expert on comparative state formation or anything though.
 
That sounds personal. I've had a fucking shit year, my gf is dead and I'm not on here or in the right headspace to deal with shit I'd hope wasn't beyond you.

In fact, it's comments like that that make me want to fuck off from here more than 1 or 2 blatantly dodgy posts other people could easily deal with.

Honestly, if that was personal, then fuck you too.

Fwiw I think you've done good posts here.

Sorry you've had a shit year.
 
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