Hamas/Israel conflict: news and discussion

[Johnny Vodka]

Best locking kids up without trial for throwing stones at soldiers shooting at them though, they should be doing that over here that would stop 'em.

They should count themselves lucky they weren't shot in the neck and left to die.

(Apologies - already posted in west bank thread.)

Minute by Minute: Israeli killing in West Bank visual investigation

As Israel’s ground invasion of Gaza intensifies, violence in the West Bank has also increased with more than 170 Palestinians reportedly killed since Hamas’s attack on October 7th.

www.channel4.com

 

[Boris Sprinkler]

Best locking kids up without trial for throwing stones at soldiers shooting at them though, they should be doing that over here that would stop 'em.

You may joke, but the Israeli “defense” industry is huge. Who do you think trains the police globally? Where these techniques and new weapons are tested first?
Have you not noticed how police the world over are all looking frighteningly similar

 

[The39thStep]

This is good reporting from CNN

 

[planetgeli]

Israel holds more than 1,000 Palestinians (probably a lot more than 1,000 now) in detention without charge or trial. Has done for years. Neither they nor their lawyers are allowed to see the evidence against them and their detention is indefinite, renewed every six months. Among those detained like this are children.

So legally speaking, they are held over nothing. Nothing at all. No charge or trial. Nothing.

I addressed this earlier in the thread. Israel has a law, which I've come across nowhere else in the world (though probably happens in a few fascist or dictatorial states), which states people can be arrested and locked up "because they might commit a crime in the future".

Palestinian children = future Hamas.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

"He/she looked at me funny"

Not even exaggerating.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Al Jazeera has run a few articles comparing Israel's murderous lashing out with the brutal final days of South Africa's apartheid regime. A scared colonial population that tolerates/cheers on increasing brutality and trampling on civil rights. A fascist regime in its violent death throes, starting to lose even its most loyal supporters around the world. Israel as it is currently constituted is making itself an unviable state.

This Israel has no future in the Middle East

 

[Boris Sprinkler]

I addressed this earlier in the thread. Israel has a law, which I've come across nowhere else in the world (though probably happens in a few fascist or dictatorial states), which states people can be arrested and locked up "because they might commit a crime in the future".

Palestinian children = future Hamas.

Wasn’t there something about that in Hollywood? It’s quite clever how they manage to predict stuff like that.
Warn you in advance to normalize things.

Apartheid and colonialist states are a joke.

 

[prunus]

I addressed this earlier in the thread. Israel has a law, which I've come across nowhere else in the world (though probably happens in a few fascist or dictatorial states), which states people can be arrested and locked up "because they might commit a crime in the future".

Palestinian children = future Hamas.

Can you provide a link to somewhere I can read about this please? An inept google search didn’t find anything :-( Thanks.

 

[planetgeli]

Can you provide a link to somewhere I can read about this please? An inept google search didn’t find anything :-( Thanks.

Israel deports thousands of stranded Palestinian workers back to Gaza

About 3,200 people reportedly sent to war-torn strip through Kerem Shalom crossing in ‘deeply concerning’ move

www.theguardian.com

https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2020/10/un-expert-calls-israel-end-practice-administrative-detention-and-immediately

 

[Larry O'Hara]

Al Jazeera has run a few articles comparing Israel's murderous lashing out with the brutal final days of South Africa's apartheid regime. A scared colonial population that tolerates/cheers on increasing brutality and trampling on civil rights. A fascist regime in its violent death throes, starting to lose even its most loyal supporters around the world. Israel as it is currently constituted is making itself an unviable state.

This Israel has no future in the Middle East

I wish.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I wish.

These kinds of changes can look like they're a long way away right up to very near the time when they happen. Was true of South Africa - who in 1985 really believed apartheid would disintegrate within five years? Was true of the Soviet Union and the Warsaw Pact.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Israel deports thousands of stranded Palestinian workers back to Gaza

About 3,200 people reportedly sent to war-torn strip through Kerem Shalom crossing in ‘deeply concerning’ move

www.theguardian.com

https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2020/10/un-expert-calls-israel-end-practice-administrative-detention-and-immediately

'administrative detention'

The banality of evil. It's administrative... detention...

Since 7 October, Israeli forces have detained more than 2,200 Palestinian men and women, according to the Palestinian Prisoners’ Club. According to Israeli human rights organization HaMoked between 1 October and 1 November, the total number of Palestinians held in administrative detention, without charge or trial, rose from 1,319 to 2,070.

Testimony from released detainees and human rights lawyers, as well as video footage and images illustrate some of the forms of torture and other ill-treatment prisoners have been subjected to by Israeli forces over the past four weeks. These include severe beatings and humiliation of detainees, including by forcing them to keep their heads down, to kneel on the floor during inmate count, and to sing Israeli songs.

“Over the last month we have witnessed a significant spike in Israel’s use of administrative detention – detention without charge or trial that can be renewed indefinitely – which was already at a 20-year high before the latest escalation in hostilities on 7 October. Administrative detention is one of the key tools through which Israel has enforced its system of apartheid against Palestinians. Testimonies and video evidence also point to numerous incidents of torture and other ill-treatment by Israeli forces including severe beatings and deliberate humiliation of Palestinians who are detained in dire conditions,” said Heba Morayef, Regional Director for the Middle East and North Africa.

Israel/OPT: Horrifying cases of torture and degrading treatment of Palestinian detainees amid spike in arbitrary arrests

 

[WhyLikeThis]

Al Jazeera has run a few articles comparing Israel's murderous lashing out with the brutal final days of South Africa's apartheid regime. A scared colonial population that tolerates/cheers on increasing brutality and trampling on civil rights. A fascist regime in its violent death throes, starting to lose even its most loyal supporters around the world. Israel as it is currently constituted is making itself an unviable state.

This Israel has no future in the Middle East

I hope we’re seeing the beginning of the end. However, as I said on the other thread, this will be at least partially influenced by the US needing to perform a very public punishment beating for those that threaten its assets.

 

[Kid_Eternity]

I am no fan of Disco Dave, but at least he's saying the right things here.

David Cameron warns Israel over Gaza civilian casualties

The foreign secretary tells Israel it will never be secure unless there is "security and stability" for the Palestinian people.

www.bbc.co.uk

Uk policy for quite a while now…

 

[teqniq]

This is pretty fucking shit if it gets enacted:

Joe Biden Moves to Lift Nearly Every Restriction on Israel’s Access to U.S. Weapons Stockpile

To get arms for its Gaza war, Israel is drawing on a U.S. arms stockpile. Joe Biden wants to remove all the restrictions on the arms.

theintercept.com

 

[Kaka Tim]

Will Israel restart the killing? I hear that might be a few buildings in Gaza which still have at least three walls and most of a roof left so some in the regieme will see it as "unfinished business". Whatever happens I cant see how there is any going back to the (grim) status quo. The only logical solutions is all the palastinians are pushed out or they have to come to a viable peace agreement. And only the latter will give Israelis any sort of long term peace and security - but do they realise that?

 

[Raheem]

And only the latter will give Israelis any sort of long term peace and security - but do they realise that?

Think the question is whether they want it.

 

[Gramsci]

Israel holds more than 1,000 Palestinians (probably a lot more than 1,000 now) in detention without charge or trial. Has done for years. Neither they nor their lawyers are allowed to see the evidence against them and their detention is indefinite, renewed every six months. Among those detained like this are children.

So legally speaking, they are held over nothing. Nothing at all. No charge or trial. Nothing.

Agree with you.

A bit of historical background.

This goes back to post 67 when Israel occupied these terrorites.

West Bank and Gaza / Sinia

From An Army like No Other.

Israel had decided to square the circle: to hold on to the territories, making the inhabitants of the land permanently stateless, in effect nonpersons. They would live under military law and Emergency Regulations, a leftover from the British Mandate legislation and in force ever since May 1948. Israel is the only country in which Emergency Regulations have been in force for every minute of its existence.

So Israel government learnt lessons from British.

The point of this is that these policies aren't just about this particular hard right politics of Netanyahu and his ilk

What I've quoted is from the period when secular Labour Zionism was the prevailing governing ideology.

When Israel won in 67 it suddenly found itself in control of historic Palestine.

There was debate at high levels of what to do.

Another Nakba

Annexation

Annexation would lead to problem of demographics. To many Arabs would be Israeli citizens.

Another Nakba wasn't possible in 67. Many Palestinians were expelled but international opinion would not turn blind eye to mass expulsion.

It was seriously discussed at higher levels to expel Gaza Palestinians to Sinai.

The fudge was to keep occupying, not make Palestinians Israel citizens and start settlement building.

This under Labour Zionism.

I would argue that there is a continuity between Labour Zionism in practice in 67 and Netanyahu and his government now.

Zionism is pragmatic and tough. Which is why it's worked so far

Whilst taking over all Palestine was the Ideal. And expelling Arabs. This was not possible in one go.

The military and political offensive in Gaza is consistent with way Zionists have operated in past. Whether of the right or left

 

[WhyLikeThis]

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[SpookyFrank]

Think the question is whether they want it.

It's pretty clear that the fascists in the Israeli government don't want peace, not even for their own people. There's nothing in it for them.

Their current actions seem to be designed to create a generation of Palestinians who are traumatised to the point where all humanity is lost, to the point where the only thing left to hope for is vengeance. It's being done to create a forever war, a forever enemy, a forever justification for a militarised, fascistic Israeli society.

I believe, and hope, that this project will ultimately fail. If the Palestinian people could be induced to abandon their humanity and conscience and actually become the nihilistic terrorist horde that Israel already paints them as, that would have happened long ago. And in Israel too, conscience still survives despite the fanatical political climate, despite generations of fearmongering and indoctrination.

There has never been, and can never be, a final victory for fascism. It is not a system that can ever reach stability or equilibrium. The only question is how many will have to suffer and die before this latest iteration of fascism in this one part of the world collapses. And how much of the rest of the world will it infect before it does.

 

[Boris Sprinkler]

Zionism is pragmatic and tough….



“Eighty percent of Gaza’s residents are refugees from the state of Israel. Their families were among the 750,000 indigenous Palestinians who fled or were forcibly expelled in the period known as the Nakba or catastrophe.

Since Israel was founded, everyone of its governments has identified these refugees as a demographic threat whose repatriation would threaten Israel’s Jewish majority. Palestinians in Gaza are ultimately confined and excluded from Israel for one simple reason ; They are not Jewish. There is simply no place for them in an Israel that defines itself as an exclusive Jewish state, and will not grant equal rights to these people.” Max Blumenthal

 

[teqniq]

Interesting bit of analysis:

Thread by @MouinRabbani on Thread Reader App

@MouinRabbani: THREAD: It is difficult to predict whether or not the Israeli-Palestinian truce will be extended beyond its expiration on the morning of 29 November, or for that matter whether it will even last until...…

threadreaderapp.com

 

[Gramsci]

Zionism is pragmatic and tough….



“Eighty percent of Gaza’s residents are refugees from the state of Israel. Their families were among the 750,000 indigenous Palestinians who fled or were forcibly expelled in the period known as the Nakba or catastrophe.

Since Israel was founded, everyone of its governments has identified these refugees as a demographic threat whose repatriation would threaten Israel’s Jewish majority. Palestinians in Gaza are ultimately confined and excluded from Israel for one simple reason ; They are not Jewish. There is simply no place for them in an Israel that defines itself as an exclusive Jewish state, and will not grant equal rights to these people.” Max Blumenthal

I'm not disagreeing with this.

I don't think my recent posts have been understood.

Zionism has different wings to it

As I said in 67 when Israel army got Gaza and West Bank different options were looked at. The one went for was settlement building and keeping Palestinians as non citizens. This wasn't ideal. But it was appeared possible at time.

I am questioning the view posted several times here that the present government is fascist and the implication is that there is a break with the past governments and now.

The Nakba took place under Labour Zionism. Labour Zionism was the ruling ideology for first decades of the state.

So there is a continuity between past Israeli governments and now as far as Palestinians go

When I say pragmatic and tough I mean as in 67 the Zionists look at options and see how far they can push it at that particular time. I'm not saying they are pragmatic in sense of suddenly deciding to treat Palestinians.better.

 

[teqniq]

This is pretty insane:

Meet the Israeli History Teacher Arrested & Jailed for Facebook Posts Opposing Killing of Palestinians​

 

[Rob Ray]

Seems like he's probably on a list - he was fired in 2020 during a previous round of "how dare you humanise Palestinians."

Israeli McCarthyism is on a witch-hunt

For showing any level of support for Palestinian rights, teachers find themselves at risk of being fired

www.middleeasteye.net

 

[SpookyFrank]

I'm not disagreeing with this.

I don't think my recent posts have been understood.

Zionism has different wings to it

As I said in 67 when Israel army got Gaza and West Bank different options were looked at. The one went for was settlement building and keeping Palestinians as non citizens. This wasn't ideal. But it was appeared possible at time.

I am questioning the view posted several times here that the present government is fascist and the implication is that there is a break with the past governments and now.

The Nakba took place under Labour Zionism. Labour Zionism was the ruling ideology for first decades of the state.

So there is a continuity between past Israeli governments and now as far as Palestinians go

When I say pragmatic and tough I mean as in 67 the Zionists look at options and see how far they can push it at that particular time. I'm not saying they are pragmatic in sense of suddenly deciding to treat Palestinians.better.

I would argue that you can't have left wing ethno-nationalism.

I don't think Israel turned fascist overnight, I think the contradiction at the heart of the Zionist project has been dragging them in that direction for a long time. And there are still non-fascist things about Israel. There's an attenuated version of democracy, there are liberal institutions, Israelis still have some right to protest. But it's not really up for debate that there are overtly fascist people at the heart of the present Israeli government, and that in a situation where that government is engaged in ethnic cleansing and not bothering to pretend otherwise there aren't any meaningful checks and balances in place.

 

[ska invita]

There has never been, and can never be, a final victory for fascism. It is not a system that can ever reach stability or equilibrium.

Ethnic cleansing can be successfully achieved though....a final victory for ethno-state formation likewise

 

[SpookyFrank]

Ethnic cleansing can be successfully achieved though....a final victory for ethno-state formation likewise

I don't think they'll purge Gaza's population altogether. But if they do, a new enemy will be found. Lebanon, Iran, whoever. Fascism cannot exist without an enemy, and the fascists aren't ever going to say OK job done, we'll fuck off now and let liberal democracy take over.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Ethnic cleansing can be successfully achieved though....a final victory for ethno-state formation likewise

I'm with Frank here. They will never successfully wipe out the Palestinians. And the events of the last two months have if anything made wiping them out even more impossible. They've galvanised world opinion against them.

Successful ethnic cleansing is something you do on the quiet.

 

[teqniq]

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