Hamas/Israel conflict: news and discussion

[teqniq]

I'm guessing that was a reply to someone else?

oops yes corrected, ta.

 

[planetgeli]

My hope is that once they stop, they will find it difficult to start again.

They won't find it difficult.

Ahead of the slated lull in fighting, Israeli Defence Minister Yoav Gallant said Thursday that once the "short" temporary truce with Hamas ends, the military campaign would resume "with intensity" for at least two more months.

 

[spring-peeper]

Are you using a VPN? If so maybe turn it off?

no vpn - been like this for weeks - even tried deleting cookies - no change

pity, though, really loved using it

 

[Gramsci]

Perhaps interesting for what he doesn't say. He doesn't say 'two-state solution'. He seems careful not to say that.

Exactly and that speaks volumes.

As people like Rashid Khalidi ( historian who also took part in Oslo negotiation) say Israeli governments have no intention of letting the Palestinians have a state.

What they might get is continuation of the PA. The PA as an administrative body. But not in control of what a normal state would have. Basically a form of colonialism where a degree of self government is allowed. As long as it follows set parameters.

 

[mojo pixy]

They won't find it difficult.

Ahead of the slated lull in fighting, Israeli Defence Minister Yoav Gallant said Thursday that once the "short" temporary truce with Hamas ends, the military campaign would resume "with intensity" for at least two more months.

Israel standing at the door rolling its eyes, tutting and checking its watch.

Nu...?

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Exactly and that speaks volumes.

As people like Rashid Khalidi ( historian who also took part in Oslo negotiation) say Israeli governments have no intention of letting the Palestinians have a state.

What they might get is continuation of the PA. The PA as an administrative body. But not in control of what a normal state would have. Basically a form of colonialism where a degree of self government is allowed. As long as it follows set parameters.

Here's the thing, though. If you don't have a two-state solution, you have to have a one-state solution. And the people within that one state have to be given political rights if you're not going to have an even more explicitly apartheid state than Israel already is. The Palestinians would need to be given citizenship of somewhere.

It's potentially very radical for Cameron to have left open the possibility of something different. Uselessly parrotting 'we've got to get back to the two-state solution' wasn't doing the Palestinians any good at all. That's what led to here.

 

[Gramsci]

A bit of context.

A more recent settler attack in March. This kind of thing was a driver for the present violence.

Israel was built on burned Palestinian villages

What happened in Huwara was neither new nor out of the ordinary.

www.aljazeera.com

She continues article to make point for Palestinians there is little difference between Liberal Zionism and the Right wing sort of Netanyahu

She says looking at the history since 48 and its a mistake to single out Netanyahu and his government.

As she points out the history shows that a lot of the expulsion of Palestinians took place under Labour Zionism.

the erasure of the Palestinian people is in the essence of the Israeli regime. To separate the actions of settlers in the West Bank from the rest is an attempt to conceal the reality of Israeli settler colonialism that exists from the Jordan River to the Mediterranean Sea

The year 1967 also marked the start of the settlement enterprise in the West Bank and Gaza, spearheaded by an Israeli Labour government and not a right-wing one as some might have presumed.

 

[teqniq]

source

 

[Lurdan]

no vpn - been like this for weeks - even tried deleting cookies - no change

pity, though, really loved using it

Are you using an old browser version? I had this issue with cloudflare captcha's going into a perpetual loop using an old version of Firefox.

 

[Pickman's model]

Here's the thing, though. If you don't have a two-state solution, you have to have a one-state solution. And the people within that one state have to be given political rights if you're not going to have an even more explicitly apartheid state than Israel already is. The Palestinians would need to be given citizenship of somewhere.

It's potentially very radical for Cameron to have left open the possibility of something different. Uselessly parrotting 'we've got to get back to the two-state solution' wasn't doing the Palestinians any good at all. That's what led to here.

You're falling into the common error of thinking there has to be some sort of solution but it should be clear that the zionists can carry on without a solution for decades. The status quo of the zionists eroding the Palestinian position is likely to carry on as far as can be foreseen and quite possibly then some.

 

[Raheem]

I am no fan of Disco Dave, but at least he's saying the right things here.

He described Gaza as a "giant prison camp" when he was PM, so he is possibly atypical for a Tory on this topic.

 

[tim]

The problem with objective reporting on this and putting the context in is that Israel don't come out of it very well.

I've got most of my coverage from watching Al Jazeera. They have reporters on the spot. Some of whom have been killed or lost family members.

Watching Al Jazeera - a TV channel from that part of the world - and it's taken as a given that Israel was founded on expulsion of Palestinians. And that Palestinians have been subject to oppression and further loss of homes and land since 48. That Israel is occupying Palestinian land and people have a right to resist.

All above are factually correct.

People interviewed on Al Jazeera aren't continually being asked the "what about" questions.

Al Jazeera has some good commentators. I've seen them gradually got more quietly incensed with the double standard of West.

As the journalists letter says there appears to be a hierarchy of worth . With Ukrainian lives worth more than Palestinian.

In West ,for example, my MP refers to " humanitarian disaster" in Gaza but Hamas attack was terrorist.

Tbf to BBC it's been getting flack from both sides.

I certainly think in Europe and UK this present conflict has divided people like nothing I've seen for ages

Even Iraq war didn't cause division like this.

Al Jazeera is from "that part of the World": to be more precise from the dictatorial, gas-rich principality Qatar, so don't expect much coverage of the hundreds of migrants worked death there building fancy stadiums and swanky hotels. Don't expect your MP to care about those horrible deaths at all.

It's also the statelet where most of the Hamas Leadership are based, but whilst the Israelis are happy to slaughter civilians in Gaza they don't seem to have much appetite for targeting Doha.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

You're falling into the common error of thinking there has to be some sort of solution but it should be clear that the zionists can carry on without a solution for decades. The status quo of the zionists eroding the Palestinian position is likely to carry on as far as can be foreseen and quite possibly then some.

Yes, the zionists have carried on with the pretence of the Oslo Accords and a two-state solution that they were never going to move towards, and that, with their settlements of the West Bank, they have been moving away from.

That's why continuing to call for a two-state solution is naive at best, and Cameron's not mentioning it is at the very least an interesting departure. It was no doubt an intentional omission.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Al Jazeera is from "that part of the World": to be more precise from the dictatorial, gas-rich principality Qatar, so don't expect much coverage of the hundreds of migrants worked death there building fancy stadiums and swanky hotels. Don't expect your MP to care about those horrible deaths at all.

I've been watching Al J on and off for years, watching it a lot in the last two months. It's no more biased due to state ownership than the BBC.

It does report on deaths at building sites in Qatar, btw. eg:

Qatar migrant workers die by hundreds.

 

[Larry O'Hara]

I doubt Cameron has much interest in playing a strategic game for the next election. I'd see this as more about him establishing himself as an international statesman. My guess is that it's mostly sincere tbh. Occasionally politicians stumble upon sincerity, even tories.

Cameron, sincere? I think not

 

[littlebabyjesus]

He described Gaza as a "giant prison camp" when he was PM, so he is possibly atypical for a Tory on this topic.

Maybe. Here's Peter Oborne in the Telegraph from 2012. Oborne is a conservative journalist who is also explicitly pro-Palestinian. He's scathing about Cameron's supine position wrt Israel (although he does say that he thinks Blair was even worse).

https://archive.ph/Yu1Ly#selection-811.1-811.792

Interesting to read that with a bit of distance. It seems very prescient.

On Monday night, one former British ambassador to Israel, the Hebrew-speaking Sir Sherard Cowper-Coles, made an eloquent speech from which it is important to quote at some length: “I believe passionately that Israel on its present course is embarked on a pathway to assisted suicide. Suicide assisted by the Congress of the United States. The idea that the problem can be solved by walling up the Palestinians in the Middle Eastern equivalent of the Bantustans, which the South African government embarked on in the 1940s, is not only offensive morally, it is deeply out of keeping with everything we know of human history. It will not work, it cannot work, it should not work. And anyone who has a real affection for the Jewish people will want to help them to avoid this looming disaster.”

 

[Cid]

I honestly don't know what to believe - both sides are going to be pushing a narrative and I wouldn't wholly trust anything either of them says. One way or another I'm pretty convinced Palestinian casualities are massive though, they can't not be.

I think the problem with that is the assumption that there are two sides. Those reporting on atrocities in Gaza, from Gaza are in no sense presenting from a unified position. They are journalists, diarists, surgeons, medics, academics, aid agency workers etc etc. With ties to many different nations, agencies, news outlets etc. There might be common factors that lead to tempering one thing or exaggerating the next, but the reports we get are backed by images, by corroborating reports, even by the IDF. The IDF on the other hand is a state military whose views are channeled through the IDF spokesperson's unit (from a very swift google), and who very much do present from a single position.

A lot of the language we use around war bakes in assumptions about the way it's conducted, about who is 'right' or 'wrong'. Mentioned before the podcast 'Citations needed' (the plural of citations needed is important, citation needed is a wacky atheist podcast where they read wiki articles); they have two recent eps called 'How military jargon and cliches make mass death seem sterile' that I think a worth a listen on this. Maha Hilal and David Vine guests.

 

[Johnny Vodka]

Sleepy Joe seems happy that the hostages held by Hamas have been released. No words (as far as I can see) about the Palestinian women and teenagers freed from Israeli jails, most of who seem to have been detained for a long time over very little (at least this was the impression I got from Ch4 news item tonight).

 

[8ball]

Sleepy Joe seems happy that the hostages held by Hamas have been released. No words (as far as I can see) about the Palestinian women and teenagers freed from Israeli jails, most of who seem to have been detained for a long time over very little (at least this was the impression I got from Ch4 news item tonight).

I was surprised by how few prisoners the Israelis have released, comparatively speaking, when you compare to previous prisoner swaps.

Makes me think things are pretty grim for Hamas on the ground, regardless of how far ahead they are in the propaganda war.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Sleepy Joe seems happy that the hostages held by Hamas have been released. No words (as far as I can see) about the Palestinian women and teenagers freed from Israeli jails, most of who seem to have been detained for a long time over very little (at least this was the impression I got from Ch4 news item tonight).

Israel holds more than 1,000 Palestinians (probably a lot more than 1,000 now) in detention without charge or trial. Has done for years. Neither they nor their lawyers are allowed to see the evidence against them and their detention is indefinite, renewed every six months. Among those detained like this are children.

So legally speaking, they are held over nothing. Nothing at all. No charge or trial. Nothing.

 

[tim]

I've been watching Al J on and off for years, watching it a lot in the last two months. It's no more biased due to state ownership than the BBC.

It does report on deaths at building sites in Qatar, btw. eg:

Qatar migrant workers die by hundreds.

An article based on reports from the Guardian and AFP rather than on work by Al Jazeera investigative journalists based in Qatar.

Al Jazeera's origins are in a BBC project to broadcast in Arabic which was scuppered by the Saudis and and many of whose journalists were then taken in by the Qataris as part of their attempt to use their wealth position themselves as a regional power. Like the BBC it is a state broadcaster that has built its brand on not being craven with regard to its masters but it ultimately like the BBC pushes that masters interests. When I worked in the region in the late 90s its programming was far superior to any of the other regional broadcasters.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

An article based on reports from the Guardian and AFP rather than on work by Al Jazeera investigative journalists based in Qatar.

Al Jazeera's origins are in a BBC project to broadcast in Arabic which was scuppered by the Saudis and and many of whose journalists were then taken in by the Qataris as part of their attempt to use their wealth position themselves as a regional power. Like the BBC it is a state broadcaster that has built its brand on not being craven with regard to its masters but it ultimately like the BBC pushes that masters interests. When I worked in the region in the late 90s its programming was far superior to any of the other regional broadcasters.

Yes, that part in bold is fair. And tbh in many other aspects of world reporting, the BBC, particularly World Service (the bit most directly controlled by the government ironically enough), is decent. It's just been shit over Palestine. And in 2019, it was disgraceful towards Corbyn.

I'm not against state broadcasters on principle. Private broadcasters also push their masters' interests. And commercial broadcasters more broadly push an agenda that is acceptable to their advertisers. Regarding the Gaza genocide, Al Jazeera has been pretty amazing imho. Some incredibly brave journalists work for them. They don't pretend to be 'balanced' - they're really angry about what's happening and are not afraid to show it. Sometimes that's the right approach.

 

[belboid]

no vpn - been like this for weeks - even tried deleting cookies - no change

pity, though, really loved using it

it will be a virus blocker or something, I only just worked out how to turn it off on my Mac (ie disabling the webshield in this case)

 

[spring-peeper]

it will be a virus blocker or something, I only just worked out how to turn it off on my Mac (ie disabling the webshield in this case)

I shall look into that - thanks

 

[teqniq]

Amazing:

 

[Johnny Vodka]

Israel holds more than 1,000 Palestinians (probably a lot more than 1,000 now) in detention without charge or trial. Has done for years. Neither they nor their lawyers are allowed to see the evidence against them and their detention is indefinite, renewed every six months. Among those detained like this are children.

So legally speaking, they are held over nothing. Nothing at all. No charge or trial. Nothing.

The piece on ch4 news said one of the female prisoners had been linked to a stabbing and kids are often arrested for throwing stones.

 

[mojo pixy]

I was surprised by how few prisoners the Israelis have released, comparatively speaking, when you compare to previous prisoner swaps.

Makes me think things are pretty grim for Hamas on the ground, regardless of how far ahead they are in the propaganda war.

I don't think it's fair to say Hamas are 'ahead in the propaganda war'. More and more people are sympathizing with the Palestinians because of the obvious injustice and brutality of the Israeli bombing campaign. Israel is losing the propaganda war despite Hamas, not because of it. Nobody cares about Hamas. People care about thousands of dead and mutilated children.

 

[tony.c]

The piece on ch4 news said one of the female prisoners had been linked to a stabbing and kids are often arrested for throwing stones.

The woman 'linked to stabbing' is Shorouq Dwayat. She was arrested in 2015 when she was 18. She was walking home when she was attacked by a settler.
He tried to pull Shorouq's hijab off and she pushed him away with her bag. She was then shot four times. Witnesses say there was no stabbing attempt.

Anxious, optimistic: Families of female Palestinian prisoners await release

According to terms of a four-day truce between Israel and Hamas, 150 Palestinian women and children will be released.

www.aljazeera.com

 

[two sheds]

Best locking kids up without trial for throwing stones at soldiers shooting at them though, they should be doing that over here that would stop 'em.

 

[mojo pixy]

Best locking kids up without trial for throwing stones at soldiers shooting at them though, they should be doing that over here that would stop 'em.

Blow up their homes and drive them into the sea. It's what any civilised nation would do.