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Hamas/Israel conflict: news and discussion

I'm with Frank here. They will never successfully wipe out the Palestinians. And the events of the last two months have if anything made wiping them out even more impossible. They've galvanised world opinion against them.

Successful ethnic cleansing is something you do on the quiet.
Predicting the future is ultimately a game but have to say "world opinion" is irrelevant. There's no shift in opinion of Israel's military state allies and there's no reason to expect a shift to come. Public support in the USA remains heavily pro-Israel.

West Bank clearance is going apace, Gaza is rubble with more bombing to come. It's not about "wiping out" Palestinians, its about moving them outside of Israel's borders and making no place within the border liveable <seems objectively being successfully achieved to me. The moving people out bit is their next challenge but as you said before, stay and die is the tactic there
 
Predicting the future is ultimately a game but have to say "world opinion" is irrelevant. There's no shift in opinion of Israel's military state allies and there's no reason to expect a shift to come. Public support in the USA remains heavily pro-Israel.

West Bank clearance is going apace, Gaza is rubble with more bombing to come. It's not about "wiping out" Palestinians, its about moving them outside of Israel's borders and making no place within the border liveable <seems objectively being successfully achieved to me.
The UK is one of Israel's military state allies. I'd say there's been a major shift in opinion here. How that translates into political action I don't know, but there is a change.
 
I would argue that you can't have left wing ethno-nationalism.

I don't think Israel turned fascist overnight, I think the contradiction at the heart of the Zionist project has been dragging them in that direction for a long time. And there are still non-fascist things about Israel. There's an attenuated version of democracy, there are liberal institutions, Israelis still have some right to protest. But it's not really up for debate that there are overtly fascist people at the heart of the present Israeli government, and that in a situation where that government is engaged in ethnic cleansing and not bothering to pretend otherwise there aren't any meaningful checks and balances in place.

Labour party under Harold Wilson did think you can have left wing ethno nationalism. The golden years of Labour party and Israel were under Wilson. Israel was one thing that he was idealistic about.

Good article here read last week here:


This was when Israel was run by Labour Zionism. People like Wilson genuinely believed that Israel was building democratic socialism in the middle east. Making the desert bloom.

Yet this was a form of ethno nationalism with a democratic socialist tinge to it. For Palestinians at the time their were no meaningful checks or balances. They simply were not part of the picture.

(Post war Atlee government were not so enthusiastic - this is not something I know much of. But Wilson was not happy with Atlee government re Israel. )

Its a line that Starmer has picked up and run with.

Article has picture of Golda Meir and Wilson at the Socialist International.

Not saying this is good. It was how Israel was seen and how it is seen by sections of the Labour party. Margaret Hodge complaint about Corbyn and his support of Palestinians was that this was not the party she first joined. Which it was not.

I was listening to a Palestinian being interviewed a while back. The distinctions between more liberal versions and more right wing versions of Zionism he scoffed at. Ethnic cleansing has been going on since Zionism first built the state. Regardless of which wing of Zionism is in charge.

The 67 war brought Gaza and West Bank under Israeli control. The fudge was to retain it as occupied territories. But make life so unpleasant for the now stateless non persons ( Palestinians ) that they would leave "voluntarily". Secondly to build settlements. An age old Zionist tactic to gain ground. So direct ethnic cleansing was replaced by incremental.

The third thing was the "Peace process". The more "pragmatic" Zionists knew that direct ethnic cleansing was not on the cards in 67. But a peace process whilst building illegal settlements would work. Than facts on the ground would mean increased Israeli annexation of land without actually formally doing it.

Knowing full well the international community would not do more than voice criticism of this.

The "Peace process" would give international community another fig leaf to hide behind.

This policy does have contradictions - can Palestinians be kept in this position as non persons for ever? Can a form of Apartheid be a permanent solution?

The hope in 67 is that gradually they would leave.

This largely did not happen. The better off did go to Canada etc. But the demographic problem for Zionist state has not gone away.

Nor has resistance.

The Hamas attack was a shock to Israel. This was not supposed to happen.

At the heart of all the Israel governments has been the Zionist project. Which does not include Palestinians as equal citizens in any Israeli state.

Yes the Netanyahu government contains those who openly talk about the human animals etc but the process of removing Palestinians - treating them as non persons to be policed- has been going on since Israel began.

Read this interesting quote from Moshe Dayan - one of the Zionists who said it how it is- in 56 at funeral of IDF soldier killed by Palestinian in the border wars said the following:

What can we say against their terrible hatred of us? For eight years now, they have sat in the refugee camps of Gaza and have watched how, before their very eyes, we have turned their land and villages, where they and their forefathers previously dwelled, into our home … Let us take stock with ourselves. We are a generation of settlement and without the steel helmet and the gun’s muzzle we will not be able to plant a tree and build a house. Let us not fear to look squarely at the hatred that consumes and fills the lives of hundreds of Arabs who live around us. Let us not drop our gaze, lest our arms weaken. That is the fate of our generation. That is our choice—to be ready and armed, tough and hard—or else the sword shall fall from our hands and our lives will be cut short.

page 240 An Army like no Other.

His words of 1956 are as relevant now to Israeli position as they were then. Moshe Dayan - military leader and politician was one of the more candid Zionists.

Acknowledges that the hatred has a rational basis. He is one of the more surprising characters in the history of Zionism as occasionally said in public what was normally said more privately.
 
Israel holds more than 1,000 Palestinians (probably a lot more than 1,000 now) in detention without charge or trial. Has done for years. Neither they nor their lawyers are allowed to see the evidence against them and their detention is indefinite, renewed every six months. Among those detained like this are children.

So legally speaking, they are held over nothing. Nothing at all. No charge or trial. Nothing.
I read that after death that Palestinian prisoners bodies are held in cold storage...and not released to families. They are held indefinitely. Their bodies have to fulfill the prison sentence.
There's talk on soc media of harvesting of skin & organs.
When bodies are eventually buried, there is no identity, just a numbered grave.

I addressed this earlier in the thread. Israel has a law, which I've come across nowhere else in the world (though probably happens in a few fascist or dictatorial states), which states people can be arrested and locked up "because they might commit a crime in the future".

Palestinian children = future Hamas.

🥺
 
Zionism is pragmatic and tough….



“Eighty percent of Gaza’s residents are refugees from the state of Israel. Their families were among the 750,000 indigenous Palestinians who fled or were forcibly expelled in the period known as the Nakba or catastrophe.

Since Israel was founded, everyone of its governments has identified these refugees as a demographic threat whose repatriation would threaten Israel’s Jewish majority. Palestinians in Gaza are ultimately confined and excluded from Israel for one simple reason ; They are not Jewish. There is simply no place for them in an Israel that defines itself as an exclusive Jewish state, and will not grant equal rights to these people.” Max Blumenthal
And yet the same Max Blumenthal denies the atrocities of Assad and the Kremlin, and spreads propaganda useful to both of those murderous regimes.
He's a terrible person who sadly still gets a pass by people who seem to be otherwise against everything he stands for.
 
Predicting the future is ultimately a game but have to say "world opinion" is irrelevant. There's no shift in opinion of Israel's military state allies and there's no reason to expect a shift to come. Public support in the USA remains heavily pro-Israel.

West Bank clearance is going apace, Gaza is rubble with more bombing to come. It's not about "wiping out" Palestinians, its about moving them outside of Israel's borders and making no place within the border liveable <seems objectively being successfully achieved to me. The moving people out bit is their next challenge but as you said before, stay and die is the tactic there

The problem here is I think that achieving such a goal (which I agree some people in the Israeli government want) is way beyond the ability of the Israeli state to deliver, way beyond the ability of its politicians to arrange and to work would require many more allies than just the US - countries to take in the refugees, networks of countries to support the refugees, countries to provide legal and diplomatic cover for the scheme and so on. These countries do not exist; even the US would probably balk at arranging a permanent resettlement of the region.
 
Oh, as long as they did that then, let's ignore their own attempted genocide of Ukrainians.
Imagine facing an enemy that is not scared of death due to their faith in God, is also not likely to be scared of whataboutism since it can be dismissed easily with facts.

Do you condemn the Israel’s war crimes?
 
Imagine facing an enemy that is not scared of death due to their faith in God, is also not likely to be scared of whataboutism since it can be dismissed easily with facts.

Do you condemn the Israel’s war crimes?

I've condemned Israel's war crimes many times. A quick search of this very thread could have shown you that.

Whataboutism? No. You quoted Max Blumenthal who repeatedly denies, covers for, and excuses war crimes. I'm not prepared to ignore that.
 
The footage of that Irish/Israeli father being reunited with his 9yo daughter who he believed was dead and had said in an interview he preferred that she had been murdered rather than taken hostage made me break down, as I'm sure it must any parent. He was so dignified throughout everything. Her mother died of cancer when she was 2 and this guy has raised her alone.

 
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I despise seeing Hamas flags next to Palestinian flags. Not helpful. Should not be conflated. I live in an area of London which is coated in Palestinian flags right now which I'm totally with. But no sign of the green one anywhere.
 
Also saw as well Peoples Front for the Liberation of Palestine flags.

Waving Hamas and other factions flags is seen differently in West Bank than to here.
 
I read that after death that Palestinian prisoners bodies are held in cold storage...and not released to families. They are held indefinitely. Their bodies have to fulfill the prison sentence.
There's talk on soc media of harvesting of skin & organs.
When bodies are eventually buried, there is no identity, just a numbered grave.
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If there is any evidence of <my bolded bit> I expect there would be an outrage!
 
If there is any evidence of <my bolded bit> I expect there would be an outrage!


And an interview..


If someone could verify these as true that would help. I am taking them at face value. However after what I've been seeing done to Palestinians this past 7 weeks...it would not surprise me if it is true.
 
I seem to recall similar stories about organ harvesting by Russian troops during the Chechen wars. I don't think there was any truth behind the rumours, but they are given credence by the total lack of respect with which both the living and the dead are treated by the oppressor.
 
I seem to recall similar stories about organ harvesting by Russian troops during the Chechen wars. I don't think there was any truth behind the rumours, but they are given credence by the total lack of respect with which both the living and the dead are treated by the oppressor.



This article mentions a Swedish investigative journalist Donald Boström who published an investigation exposing the theft of organs from the bodies of Palestinian martyrs and their trafficking by Israeli eentities.2001. This was the first time this was revealed to the international public.

Here is what he wrote on his own Website.
 
I read that after death that Palestinian prisoners bodies are held in cold storage...and not released to families. They are held indefinitely. Their bodies have to fulfill the prison sentence.
There's talk on soc media of harvesting of skin & organs.
When bodies are eventually buried, there is no identity, just a numbered grave.



🥺
about the 'postmortem detention' - that's true. the part about 'having to fulfill the sentence' is not, though.


about the organ stealing/harvesting:

there was a crime case in new york in 2009 concerning organ trade/transplant tourism:



stuff that had been going on for years. rich people buying organs from poor living donors. among the donors were poor palestinians & poor jews

this caused a resurfacing of an older israeli scandal concerning organ-harvesting at the abu kabir forensic institute in israel where the pathologists had been harvesting skin, corneas, bone & more without seeking permission for decades. this happened to the dead of all kinds, jews, muslims, christians, though palestinians & immigrants were the easiest to 'get away with'. dr chen kugel, the most important whistle-blower, had gone to the israeli press back in 2000.
he had to leave his job because of this, but was made director of the institute in 2013. he's the guy heading the forensic investigations & identifications of the 7 october victims.
this practice is almost certainly not continuing.





these two stories were not connected, the kidneys used in the us were from living donors, & the organs harvested from the dead in israel were mainly used in research & education. corneas, skin & heart valves got used for transplantation in israel.

both of these are real stories, but when mixed up, confused & dropped into todays atrocities, they get anti-semitic.
i don't think there is any reason to suspect that there's organ harvesting going on without permission now.

 
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Organ theft was also reported as being perpetrated by the KLA in the aftermath of the Kosovo war. UN high flyer Carla del Ponte resigned over the lack of action.
 


This has just popped up on Novara Media.

Interview with Palestinian American historian Rashid Khalidi

Whose book the Hundred Years War on Palestine is imo required reading.

First half is a good history lesson on the Mandate/ Arab revolt/ Zionism

Second half is more recent stuff.

A few of the points he makes.

Zionism was always about expelling Palestinians. From Herzl onwards.

That the so called Peace Process was never about Palestinians having a true state.

That Hamas won elections. Said would have coalition government with PA with the President to start negotiations with Israel. This was rebuffed. Now even Tony Blair says that was a mistake.

That all non violent options to resist are not allowed. The March to Return. A peaceful non violent protest led to Israel killing a lot the unarmed peaceful protestors. The BDS is labelled as anti semitic.

All non violent opposition is closed down. So Hamas turning to violent attack is result of this closing down of other options.

That both sides Hamas and Israel commit acts of terrorism and military action that goes against international law.

That the Israel side has killed more.

That what is happening in Gaza is attempt at ethnic cleansing. Destruction of infrastructure and refusing to let people back in ceasefire.
 


This has just popped up on Novara Media.

Interview with Palestinian American historian Rashid Khalidi

Whose book the Hundred Years War on Palestine is imo required reading.

First half is a good history lesson on the Mandate/ Arab revolt/ Zionism

Second half is more recent stuff.

A few of the points he makes.

Zionism was always about expelling Palestinians. From Herzl onwards.

That the so called Peace Process was never about Palestinians having a true state.

That Hamas won elections. Said would have coalition government with PA with the President to start negotiations with Israel. This was rebuffed. Now even Tony Blair says that was a mistake.

That all non violent options to resist are not allowed. The March to Return. A peaceful non violent protest led to Israel killing a lot the unarmed peaceful protestors. The BDS is labelled as anti semitic.

All non violent opposition is closed down. So Hamas turning to violent attack is result of this closing down of other options.

That both sides Hamas and Israel commit acts of terrorism and military action that goes against international law.

That the Israel side has killed more.

That what is happening in Gaza is attempt at ethnic cleansing. Destruction of infrastructure and refusing to let people back in ceasefire.

Thanks. This looks interesting.
 
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