www.timesofisrael.com
Apparently he has since been suspended from his post:
Far-right minister: Nuking Gaza is an option, population should ‘go to Ireland or deserts’
* * *
Article in Guardian about schools not teaching about the history of the Middle East or about the Israel/ Palestine conflict.
This despite its a live issue for schoolchildren. As one teacher says this is more relevant to them than Henry the 8th and his wives.
One points out that part of reason its not taught is that teachers themselves were not taught it.
They mention two organisations who produce class materials. Very much of the liberal sort- lets look for peaceful alternatives.
One of the problems for the history of the Israel / Palestine , like the British Empire, is that sources have been kept under lock and key or been "lost"
Ilan Pappe and the New Israel historians had the luck to work when Israel records were more open to academics. These have been made more difficult to access now.
The other problem is that of "memoricide". N Masalha , the historian, says Palestinian history is actively sidelined.
Schools in England block lessons on Middle East over fears of bias claims | History | The Guardian
Teachers say pupils losing out on learning about history of Israel-Palestine conflict due to worries about ‘bad publicity’amp.theguardian.com
Its typical of this country to shy away from actual history. Hoping some kind of watered down view will take its place. And all else fails just don't teach it.
Its no surprise to me that children don't like school. I didn't.
Article in Guardian about schools not teaching about the history of the Middle East or about the Israel/ Palestine conflict.
This despite its a live issue for schoolchildren. As one teacher says this is more relevant to them than Henry the 8th and his wives.
One points out that part of reason its not taught is that teachers themselves were not taught it.
They mention two organisations who produce class materials. Very much of the liberal sort- lets look for peaceful alternatives.
One of the problems for the history of the Israel / Palestine , like the British Empire, is that sources have been kept under lock and key or been "lost"
Ilan Pappe and the New Israel historians had the luck to work when Israel records were more open to academics. These have been made more difficult to access now.
The other problem is that of "memoricide". N Masalha , the historian, says Palestinian history is actively sidelined.
Schools in England block lessons on Middle East over fears of bias claims | History | The Guardian
Teachers say pupils losing out on learning about history of Israel-Palestine conflict due to worries about ‘bad publicity’
Its typical of this country to shy away from actual history. Hoping some kind of watered down view will take its place. And all else fails just don't teach it.
Its no surprise to me that children don't like school. I didn't.
Is there a context behind this? Do they belong to a particular sect? Are they calling for something particular?
Spot on.
I used to read Genesis under the bedsheets as a youth. All this "and he went in unto" stuff - King James managed double meanings better than Round the Horne.
I'm assuming you couldnt open the instagram post.
It looks like the same mix that we have had here. So Haredi Jews who are anti-Zionist and long-standing Palestinian supporters are out in numbers. They turned out here in the UK as well carrying exactly the same banners, but didn't bring their children. And then you'll have a mix of secular Jews who support the Palestinians for the reasons the man interviewed gave. Again, a good smattering of those here in the UK, including Jewish Voice for Labour plus a bunch of unaligned individuals.
Blimey.I used to read Genesis under the bedsheets as a youth. All this "and he went in unto" stuff - King James managed double meanings better than Round the Horne.
On the matter of serious consequences I didn't realise until last week that there are two Sodom stories in the Bible
From a Christian website (Bible.org):
The Relationship Between Genesis 19 and Judges 19
It is almost impossible for the reader of this text to miss its connection to the story of the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah in Genesis 19.1 In both texts, the sin of homosexuality and its judgment is a primary theme. In both accounts, the wicked men of the city wish to rape the male guest of an outsider who is sojourning in their city. Likewise, in both accounts the host offers his daughter(s)2 to the men of the city in place of his guest. There is no doubt that the author is informing the reader that Israel has now stooped to the moral level of the Canaanites.3
The moral I would have exptected the Israelis to ponder is this from Genesis chapter 18:
Abraham stood yet before the Lord.
23 And Abraham drew near, and said, Wilt thou also destroy the righteous with the wicked?
24 Peradventure there be fifty righteous within the city: wilt thou also destroy and not spare the place for the fifty righteous that are therein?
25 That be far from thee to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked: and that the righteous should be as the wicked, that be far from thee: Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?
26 And the Lord said, If I find in Sodom fifty righteous within the city, then I will spare all the place for their sakes.
27 And Abraham answered and said, Behold now, I have taken upon me to speak unto the Lord, which am but dust and ashes:
28 Peradventure there shall lack five of the fifty righteous: wilt thou destroy all the city for lack of five? And he said, If I find there forty and five, I will not destroy it.
29 And he spake unto him yet again, and said, Peradventure there shall be forty found there. And he said, I will not do it for forty's sake.
30 And he said unto him, Oh let not the Lord be angry, and I will speak: Peradventure there shall thirty be found there. And he said, I will not do it, if I find thirty there.
31 And he said, Behold now, I have taken upon me to speak unto the Lord: Peradventure there shall be twenty found there. And he said, I will not destroy it for twenty's sake.
32 And he said, Oh let not the Lord be angry, and I will speak yet but this once: Peradventure ten shall be found there. And he said, I will not destroy it for ten's sake.
33 And the Lord went his way, as soon as he had left communing with Abraham: and Abraham returned unto his place.
We all know what happened next but how about Judges 19?
This extraordinary piece of text, is the Biblical equivalent of a video nasty and tells the story of the Levite's concubineBible Gateway passage: Judges 19 - King James Version
And it came to pass in those days, when there was no king in Israel, that there was a certain Levite sojourning on the side of mount Ephraim, who took to him a concubine out of Bethlehemjudah. And his concubine played the whore against him, and went away from him unto her father's house to...www.biblegateway.com
In summary a traveller comes to town, night falls and the traveller and his concubine are struck on the street with nowhere to stay.
An old farm labourer takes them in - but the men of the town come banging on the door demanding the young man be brought out so they can "know" him.
Instead the man offers the crowds his concubine - with obvious results.
In the morning the poor woman is on the point of death through this mass rape the Levite cuts her up into 12 pieces - one piece for each tribe of Israel.
"And it was so, that all that saw it said, There was no such deed done nor seen from the day that the children of Israel came up out of the land of Egypt unto this day"
The end.
I don't think scripture is a good guide to living - any more than Grimm's Fairy Tales or Jason and the Argonauts.
Thanks..
Psalm 2 - did you mean this? Seems very general as opposed to Samuel I quoted above which incited genocide.
It's taken me a few days to get around to reading this. And I think it is important to understand the scale and brutality of the the 7th October attack. Just calling it a terrorist attack doesn't do justice to how big it was, the area affected, the amount of people murdered. The innocents killed do deserve to be remembered. And what a huge attack, how many Israelis were killed and kidnapped does need to be remembered as we look on in horror at Israel's response. Hamas must've known what to expect in response.Naming the victims and mapping the massacre of 7th October.
Mapping the Massacres
Explore a geovisualization that depicts the atrocities committed by Hamas in Israel on October 7th. It portrays the scale of impact on towns, families, and civilians. Share this map to help raise awareness about the consequences of this tragic day.oct7map.com
We had the word 'but' earlier in the thread (as in 'this horror happened on the 7th October... but). As simply a way of posting on this thread, I've agonised about that word, when to use it, whether to use it etc. Needless to say, posting on a discussion board a world away from the conflict, my/our formulations around the word but are not that important. But we are posting, so, well, there is a need to think about how to discuss the horrors of the 7th and the horrors that have gone before and after. All that is a way of, I think, saying I agree that we have to keep a 3 dimensional view of what the attackers were trying to achieve and the way they saw the attack fitting into any kind of Palestinian struggle. But then how do you make any analytical point at the moment where numerous families are burying their dead on each side (or not even managing that in Gaza)? And maybe that's what it is about horrors like this: you need to be human, you need to acknowledge the pain and the horror, but you need to analyse. The attacks of the 7th were vile and the pain caused was beyond comprehension + the mass murder carried out against Gaza, which manages to even outstrip that horror. We are currently seeing the very worst of the Israeli state and Zionism and Hamas are parasitic Islamists (sort of), worsening the situation of the Palestinian people.
India has an intellectual backdrop of pacifism, not just a legacy of MH Gandhi but also going through the Buddhist/Jain side of their culture.From Oct 29 but still relevant:
Opinion | The Israeli Officials I Speak With Tell Me They Know Two Things for Sure (Published 2023)
Hamas will never again govern Gaza, and Israel will not govern a post-Hamas Gaza.www.nytimes.com
We had the word 'but' earlier in the thread (as in 'this horror happened on the 7th October... but). As simply a way of posting on this thread, I've agonised about that word, when to use it, whether to use it etc. Needless to say, posting on a discussion board a world away from the conflict, my/our formulations around the word but are not that important. But we are posting, so, well, there is a need to think about how to discuss the horrors of the 7th and the horrors that have gone before and after. All that is a way of, I think, saying I agree that we have to keep a 3 dimensional view of what the attackers were trying to achieve and the way they saw the attack fitting into any kind of Palestinian struggle. But then how do you make any analytical point at the moment where numerous families are burying their dead on each side (or not even managing that in Gaza)? And maybe that's what it is about horrors like this: you need to be human, you need to acknowledge the pain and the horror, but you need to analyse. The attacks of the 7th were vile and the pain caused was beyond comprehension + the mass murder carried out against Gaza, which manages to even outstrip that horror. We are currently seeing the very worst of the Israeli state and Zionism and Hamas are parasitic Islamists (sort of), worsening the situation of the Palestinian people.
That's a long stream of consciousness, a snapshot of the contradictions I feel when saying anything on this conflict. That's why I feel the only starting point (or perhaps solid ground) is the history, post 1948 particularly, which gives you all you need to frame this conflict. The Nakba, the settlers, the ethnic cleansing, the role of the US and the west, the control of material resources, yes, all that. And also the pain that Israel has suffered in that period. None of that excuses an attack on music festivals, nor should it deaden us to the grief of Israeli parents.... but. Not an excuse, 'but' its how we got here.
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