Hamas/Israel conflict: news and discussion

[Aladdin]

Its harrowing that we are able to see this genocide as it is happening on our phones.
I follow Shaun King on instagram and the videos are terrifying and extremely barbaric.

I cannot believe the world is seeing all of this happening and governments and powerful people are allowing Israel to decimate the Palestinian people. Children. Little children being shown as some poor father or doctor desprerately tries to bring them back to life.

The world knows this . Videos are posted daily. Horrific violence. I mean indescribably horrible.

It is traumatising seeing how cruel the IDF is...dragging dead palestinians along attached to the back of their vehicles.

Sorry.
I just am finding the fact that the reality of what is going on being pretty much ignored by mainstream media very very despicable.

 

[Gramsci]

I agree with a lot of what you've posted in this thread but this post has some elements that I can't agree with. To make anti-semitism "a European problem" is far too sweeping a generalisation. I presume you are meaning prior to the 20th Century, but even then I think you need to be careful.

On (5) which "side" does have better right to claim the land? How are the rights of claim land determined? How far back does one have to go to establish a claim to land? How do such rights apply in other places? To go down this path is to accept this conflict as a nationalist/ethnic/religious one, and throw out class.

Sorry notice more posts on this I have not had time to read yet.

Just wanted to not just ignore your post.

On the class issue. Id say in short I would agree with Ilan Pappe and others that One State Solution is the way forward.

However it comes across as pipe dream.

There have been a few groups in Israel like Matzpen who have class politics Ive posted about but they are tiny.

Like a socialist federation of the middle east is idea but its comes across as utopian.

So if pushed Id say the most "realistic" option is to work towards One state solution where Palestinian and Israel Jews can live as equals. And then class politics can re start.

Back in 1930s when Jews and Arabs lived in Mandate in mixed towns a certain mixing of workers across ethnic divides do happen.

Its a what if scenerio.

In my reading what comes up is the workers organisation the Histadrut.

When the Israel state was established it became not just a workers organisation but owned and controlled large parts of economy.

So Jewish Israeli workers had economic interest in supporting the Zionist state?

Would it be correct to say that in Israel was post 48 until liberalisation of economy under Begin was a corporate state?

I don't have all the answers here. But like South Africa certain groups of workers had privileged status. There is of course divisions inside Israel society on class issue- pay / inequality/ privatisation But as Ilan Pappe says Israel operates like a democracy with all the arguments but the elephant in room is Palestinians.

 

[Aladdin]

Anyone thinking the regime in Gaza is not apartheid?



Also the "self defence" argument made by the Israelis? Its not legal.

See this.



Paragraph 139 of tbe International Court of Justice Advisory Opinion on the legalitt of tbe wall (2004l ..in that paragraph the court makes it clear that Israel does not enjoy a right of self defence under article 51 of tbe UN charter in relation to attacks that emanate from within an occupied territory that it controls. Gaza is an occupier territory.
Israel is in effective control over it.

The mainstream media isn't showing any of this.

 

[tim]

Psalm 2 - did you mean this? Seems very general as opposed to Samuel I quoted above which incited genocide.
Possibly you might be thinking of the last verse of Psalm 137 - which I suspect Boney M omitted

137 By the rivers of Babylon, there we sat down, yea, we wept, when we remembered Zion.
2 We hanged our harps upon the willows in the midst thereof.
3 For there they that carried us away captive required of us a song; and they that wasted us required of us mirth, saying, Sing us one of the songs of Zion.
4 How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
5 If I forget thee, O Jerusalem, let my right hand forget her cunning.
6 If I do not remember thee, let my tongue cleave to the roof of my mouth; if I prefer not Jerusalem above my chief joy.
7 Remember, O Lord, the children of Edom in the day of Jerusalem; who said, Rase it, rase it, even to the foundation thereof.
8 O daughter of Babylon, who art to be destroyed; happy shall he be, that rewardeth thee as thou hast served us.
9 Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones.

Boney M! It was the Melodians, the Boney M version was a cover, and it combines elements of Psalm 137 and Psalm 119.



Anyway, Israeli Atrocities are not base on by Biblical interpretation anymore than those of Hamas are inspired by the Quran. And, if you want sensible insights into Biblical texts don't go to Fundamentalist Christian websites buy yourself a decent academic study Bible.

https://wwnorton.com/books/9780393927450 The Norton edition of the Authorised Version


New Oxford Annotated Bible

The Jewish Study Bible.

 

[Pickman's model]

Boney M! It was the Melodians, the Boney M version was a cover, and it combines elements of Psalm 137 and Psalm 119.



Anyway, Israeli Atrocities are not base on by Biblical interpretation anymore than those of Hamas are inspired by the Quran. And, if you want sensible insights into Biblical texts don't go to Fundamentalist Christian websites buy yourself a decent academic study Bible.

https://wwnorton.com/books/9780393927450 The Norton edition of the Authorised Version


New Oxford Annotated Bible

The Jewish Study Bible.

Which part of no advertising have you difficulty with?

 

[teqniq]

Hello? Are they fucking real? Cut of the arms shipments and financial aid, they will soon reconsider:

White House frustrated by Israel’s onslaught but sees few options



E2a The Washington Post knows this and should be ashamed at publishing this drivel.

 

[mojo pixy]

Anyway, Israeli Atrocities are not base on by Biblical interpretation anymore than those of Hamas are inspired by the Quran.

Well we know for certain that they are, and that they also are, if not inspired then at least justified.

And, if you want sensible insights into Biblical texts don't go to Fundamentalist Christian websites buy yourself a decent academic study Bible.

https://wwnorton.com/books/9780393927450 The Norton edition of the Authorised Version


New Oxford Annotated Bible

The Jewish Study Bible.

lol as if people can't find a bible if they want one

IME Jew Christian or Muslim, you pick the scriptures that suit your worldview and not the other way around. Which is why in a situation like this, quoting scripture (as Netanyahu has done) is not just unhelpful but actively divisive and threatening.

 

[ska invita]

E2a The Washington Post knows this and should be ashamed at publishing this drivel.

totally, the false narrative around the US position has been regurgitated from the start. talking of newspaper coverage the guardian is looking pretty censored, even the bbc is closer to showing the harsh reality. the times on sunday was laughable in its propaganda-though-omission - paper of record my arse.
have to be thankful for social media, very much including twitter for all its faults. two different worlds of media out there.

 

[Pickman's model]

totally, the false narrative around the US position has been regurgitated from the start. talking of newspaper coverage the guardian is looking pretty censored, even the bbc is closer to showing the harsh reality. the times on sunday was laughable in its propaganda-though-omission - paper of record my arse.
have to be thankful for social media, very much including twitter for all its faults. two different worlds of media out there.

you cannot hope to bribe or twist
thank god! the british journalist...

 

[ska invita]

as for this
jesus fucking wept

Le Pen’s anti-Islamism and support of Israel seen as attempt to obscure antisemitic past

As antisemitic incidents rise in France, far right leader’s party is promising to protect French Jews from Islamism

www.theguardian.com

the enabling of fascists alive and well in the PMC

 

[kabbes]

The persistent media reference to a “ceasefire in the fighting” is also telling. So that would comprise the Israelis halting their bombing of refugee camps and hospitals, then? “Fighting” indeed.

 

[tim]

.

India has an intellectual backdrop of pacifism, not just a legacy of MH Gandhi but also going through the Buddhist/Jain side of their culture.
As people have pointed out the current post 1948 culture of Israel is smiting - and many seem to find this backed up in scripture.
Couldn't find your quote on 29th Oct. It was clearly apt, but never going to happen. Nor does that justify attacking and killing thousands of innocent people.

An awful lot of smiting has gone on in India too post independence. Including the Gujarat pogroms incited by Modi, the current Prime Minister, in which hundreds of Muslims where killed. You can add to that the conflict in Kashmir, the wars with Pakistan; the storming of the Golden Temple in Amritsar back in the 1980s and vast amount of lower level incidents of sectarian and caste-based violence.

As to us, the British state has spent most years of the past two centuries smiting people in some part of the World or other. Remember the ongoing inquiry about SAS about SAS deaths quads murdering civilllians in Afghanistan to get themselves decent kill number.

Claiming that Jews kill or as is also common that Muslims kill because they have been indoctrinated by some holy book or other is racist, Orientalist bollocks.

 

[MickiQ]

The persistent media reference to a “ceasefire in the fighting” is also telling. So that would comprise the Israelis halting their bombing of refugee camps and hospitals, then? “Fighting” indeed.

There's definitely actual fighting going on, very one-sided and hideous collateral damage happening but whatever else you can say about them, Hamas are going down swinging.
The IDF are being cagey about casualties but they did announce one day last week they had lost 17 men that day. Hamas still even managed to fire off a few rockets at the weekend.
I can't see there being a ceasfire in the true sense of the word, The idea of a ceasefire is a pause in the fighting whilst a settlement is negotiated. However since the only acceptable solution to the Israeli government is the destruction of Hamas it isn't likely to go very far.
There may very well be 'humanitarian' pauses whilst aid is allowed in but I can't see that either until Israel has reached the point where Hamas can't take advantage of it. They have said that they wil only consider it once all the hostages are released but I can see them being leaned on to agree to it earlier. It can't be a good look for Biden that Blinken is racking up the air miles flying around the ME and not achieving anything.

 

[Ax^]

Claiming that Jews kill or as is also common that Muslims kill because they have been indoctrinated by some holy book or other is racist, Orientalist bollocks.

tbf it the same fucking book mostly

why Christian love killing too

 

[ska invita]

i wonder how many people are still alive in the now annexed north gaza

 

[_Russ_]

Claiming that Jews kill or as is also common that Muslims kill because they have been indoctrinated by some holy book or other is racist, Orientalist bollocks.

Yep, you definitely need to stick the word "Some" in there to change it from racism into undeniable fact, maybe replace "some" with "quite a few" when referring to HAMAS and the IDF


P.S.

 

[ska invita]

i wonder how many people are still alive in the now annexed north gaza

BBC reporting "upwards of 300,000 " ... i mean who knows where they plucked that number from but its a number...about to get a lot smaller

 

[Pickman's model]

BBC reporting "upwards of 300,000 " ... i mean who knows where they plucked that number from but its a number...about to get a lots smaller

by no means, the influx of many thousands of zionist soldiers will raise it temporarily

 

[Pickman's model]

Yep, you definitely need to stick the word "Some" in there to change it from racism into undeniable fact, maybe replace "some" with "quite a few" when referring to HAMAS and the IDF


P.S.

it's good to see our archwalt at work

 

[2hats]

BBC reporting "upwards of 300,000 " ... i mean who knows where they plucked that number from but its a number...about to get a lot smaller

It might have arisen from an estimate from the UN's OCHA. But it's not entirely clear if that's just internally displaced inside the north (though by now perhaps the difference between that and the total number isn't particularly large). The US appear to estimate a similar number. According to a local journalist (Gaza-based reporter on BBC News in the past hour), Hamas authorities are stating something like twice that remain (700,000).

 

[Aladdin]

Letter to Irish newspapers, November 2023

The letter below was published by the Irish Times on 4 November 2023 with 633 signatures that had been collected by 5pm on 2 November. Further signatures are again being collected for adding here. …

academicsforpalestine.org

Over 600 academics in Ireland have signed a letter to the Irish Times as follows.









Full letter in link above.

 

[CH1]

.

An awful lot of smiting has gone on in India too post independence. Including the Gujarat pogroms incited by Modi, the current Prime Minister, in which hundreds of Muslims where killed. You can add to that the conflict in Kashmir, the wars with Pakistan; the storming of the Golden Temple in Amritsar back in the 1980s and vast amount of lower level incidents of sectarian and caste-based violence.

As to us, the British state has spent most years of the past two centuries smiting people in some part of the World or other. Remember the ongoing inquiry about SAS about SAS deaths quads murdering civilllians in Afghanistan to get themselves decent kill number.

Claiming that Jews kill or as is also common that Muslims kill because they have been indoctrinated by some holy book or other is racist, Orientalist bollocks.

Yeah well actually I was trying to explain the sentiment you describe as orientalist bollocks in the NYT article someone posted (was it you?)
I am of course aware that Buddhists in Sri Lanka have practised genocide on Hindu Tamils, Budhist govt in Myanmar ethically cleansed the Rohinga, Muslim fundamentalists in Sudan cause South Sudanese Christians to split off - and then these Christians had their own blood bath.

I think you should so some sociology and stop pestering and nitpicking here.
I've been thinking that someone ought to do a King Herod Christmas card featuring Benjamin Netanyahu.
There is only one person who could do it - but he is probably too sensible to get involved
after all Steve Bell got sacked for this

 

[nino_savatte]

Article in Guardian about schools not teaching about the history of the Middle East or about the Israel/ Palestine conflict.

This despite its a live issue for schoolchildren. As one teacher says this is more relevant to them than Henry the 8th and his wives.

One points out that part of reason its not taught is that teachers themselves were not taught it.

They mention two organisations who produce class materials. Very much of the liberal sort- lets look for peaceful alternatives.

One of the problems for the history of the Israel / Palestine , like the British Empire, is that sources have been kept under lock and key or been "lost"

Ilan Pappe and the New Israel historians had the luck to work when Israel records were more open to academics. These have been made more difficult to access now.

The other problem is that of "memoricide". N Masalha , the historian, says Palestinian history is actively sidelined.

Schools in England block lessons on Middle East over fears of bias claims | History | The Guardian

Teachers say pupils losing out on learning about history of Israel-Palestine conflict due to worries about ‘bad publicity’

amp.theguardian.com

Its typical of this country to shy away from actual history. Hoping some kind of watered down view will take its place. And all else fails just don't teach it.

Its no surprise to me that children don't like school. I didn't.

It's the same with Ireland, frankly.

 

[Eric Jarvis]

tbf it the same fucking book mostly

why Christian love killing too

I've looked a number of time for it over many decades, but I still can't find the codicil to the "Commandment" Thou shalt Not Kill. I guess it's down to "commandment" being a mistranslation of the Aramaic for "guideline".

 

[Larry O'Hara]

Its harrowing that we are able to see this genocide as it is happening on our phones.
I follow Shaun King on instagram and the videos are terrifying and extremely barbaric.

I cannot believe the world is seeing all of this happening and governments and powerful people are allowing Israel to decimate the Palestinian people. Children. Little children being shown as some poor father or doctor desprerately tries to bring them back to life.

The world knows this . Videos are posted daily. Horrific violence. I mean indescribably horrible.

It is traumatising seeing how cruel the IDF is...dragging dead palestinians along attached to the back of their vehicles.

Sorry.
I just am finding the fact that the reality of what is going on being pretty much ignored by mainstream media very very despicable.

And sadly predictable:,eg the carnage in Yemen never features. The western mainstream media arent so much ignoring events as facilitating genocide: pretending Blinken is a ‘peacemaker’ when all the murdering little shit wants to do is ensure Palestinians die alone

 

[Aladdin]

It's the same with Ireland, frankly.

No. It's changed. Children learned about 1916 and 1921 and the civil war etc etc the famine/ starvation.
When were you in school in Ireland?

 

[Ax^]

No. It's changed. Children learned about 1916 and 1921 and the civil war etc etc the famine/ starvation.
When were you in school in Ireland?

ah think he means in English school as they tend to avoid the whole famine stuff in my history classes or Cromwell's little adventures

that British actions in India and the bit about being involved in the slave trade

the empire happened because most nations were happy to be civilised

 

[Larry O'Hara]

No. It's changed. Children learned about 1916 and 1921 and the civil war etc etc the famine/ starvation.
When were you in school in Ireland?

When I taught (at a Catholic college!) I introduced an A level History topic of Northern Ireland 1922-1980. They loved it and I enjoyed getting them to understand Loyalist perspective. Got some excellent essays on IRA military strategy…

 

[nino_savatte]

No. It's changed. Children learned about 1916 and 1921 and the civil war etc etc the famine/ starvation.
When were you in school in Ireland?

I'm talking about English and Welsh schools. I have little knowledge of the Scottish system but I'd imagine it's the same. I'll have to ask my grandsons if the history of Britain's relationship with Ireland was taught to them.

 

[Aladdin]

I'm talking about English and Welsh schools. I have little knowledge of the Scottish system but I'd imagine it's the same. I'll have to ask my grandsons if the history of Britain's relationship with Ireland was taught to them.

Ah ok.