Hamas/Israel conflict: news and discussion

[teqniq]

Well now, Netenyahu is seen by Turkey as finished:

Turkey recalls ambassador to Israel over ‘humanitarian tragedy in Gaza’

President Erdogan says he is breaking contact with PM Netanyahu but is not cutting relations with Israel over Gaza.

www.aljazeera.com

 

[Pickman's model]

I think the physical separation aspects of Israel and SA are fairly unique, though a broader definition definitely brings in more countries. To me Apartheid is a specific word about physical separation that goes beyonda more general ethnic/religious oppression. But we've already been round this ...

and as i think i mentioned much earlier in the thread, the zionists and the apartheid south african government were close allies when no other 'democracy' would touch the south african regime Israel–South Africa relations - Wikipedia

 

[PTK]

The United Nations 20th session in 1965 produced a report on Ethnic Cleansing in Israel/Palestine (see atttached). This was before the "Six Day War" - and clearly Israel was not minded to address the issues then simply preferring - with the support of US military aid - to win the war. This has been their repeated tactic.

Actually I would characterise the Zionist project so far as a dialectical application of ethnic nationalism cloaked in a religious mystery to which 2000 years of shared inculcation (1,400 in the case of Moslems) lends a bogus authority. It is unusual actually for people to simply seize land and expel a whole ethnic group. William the Conqueror kept the Anglo Saxon serfs to do his dirty work. Even the Moslem invaders of Spain apparently preferred the native Christians to stay - so they could tax them.

The bit of the UN proceeding which caught my attention was the paragraph below. which refers to The Road to Beersheba by Ethel Mannin, a radical English author born in Battersea in 1900. I read that book in about 1968 - sadly it is now a "rare book". It has been digitized (pay to view).

12. The second objective of the Zionists had been to expel the Arab population from the "Jewish State". Terrorist attacks had been directed at peaceful and defenceless Arab villages, and at Deir Yasstn an entire village had been exterminated. The leader of Litho in U.N. the Irgun had subsequently praised the extermination as a masterpiece of military tactics. Such terrorist activities had taken place before the withdrawal of the United Kingdom forces from Palestine and at a time when no Arab soldiers were present in Palestine.
Not only had the United Kingdom forces failed to protect the Arab Inhabitants, but they had actually taken part in the evacuation of the Arab population from Tiberias and Samakh and had supplied transportation for the refugees from Jaffa and Haifa.
Ethel Mannin, in her book The Road to Beersheba, had reoounted the pitiful story of the inhabitants of Lydda and Ramleh who had been forced to leave their homes and walk forty miles in the sun to Ramallah. The crimes committed by the terrorists had been glorified, and their perpetrators, depioted as heroes and liberators, were committing the same crimes against the Arabs as the Nazis had committed against the Jews. As Arnold Toynbee had said, it was the supreme tragedy of the Jews that the lesson they had learned from their encounter with Nazi gentiles should have been not to eschew but to imitate some of the evil deeds committed against them. Nazi persecution of the Jews had indeed been a great crime, but Zionist persecution of the innocent Arab population of Palestine was an even greater crime.

Thanks for this.

The documents in the state archives became available after this was written, and the "revisionist" Israeli historians were able to show that the expulsion of the Palestinian Arab population was official policy.

 

[Gramsci]

Here is the Amnesty definition,

This is apartheid.

Amnesty International’s new investigation shows that Israel imposes a system of oppression and domination against Palestinians across all areas under its control: in Israel and the OPT, and against Palestinian refugees, in order to benefit Jewish Israelis. This amounts to apartheid as prohibited in international law.

Laws, policies and practices which are intended to maintain a cruel system of control over Palestinians, have left them fragmented geographically and politically, frequently impoverished, and in a constant state of fear and insecurity.

Israel's apartheid against Palestinians

Palestinians are systematically subjected to home demolitions and forced evictions, and live in constant fear of losing their homes. For more than 73 years, Israel has been forcibly displacing entire Palestinian communities. Hundreds of thousands of Palestinians’ homes have been demolished...

www.amnesty.org

Apartheid is word used to cover these laws , policies and practices.

What Im not clear on is the objection to the specific word or is it objection to saying Israel is maintaining a system of control over Palestinians as HRW and Amnesty reports say?

tim

 

[belboid]

Because Apartheid was a system of supposedly racial classification based on measuring skin complexion, curliness of hair, measuring the size of people's noses. It was an attack and dehumanisation of anyone who was black for being black and those who weren't black enough it white enough were given an arbitrary intermediate status. The only real comparisons I see are the racial policies of the Nazis and the Jim Crow legislation in the USA. I think that using the term more generally diminishes the particular wickedness of the Apartheid regime.

It was a system of racial separation and oppression, placing one group as superior to others. The specifics in the SA instance involved the things you note, but they are merely the specifics used to implement the basic principle. They are not inherently necessary. The practise is the same.

It's not just crazed lefties who use the term, you're placing yourself to the right of the likes of Israeli jewish organisations like B'Tselem and Yesh Din, not to mention all the UN bodies or dozens of liberal campaigning organisations.

 

[teqniq]

 

[tim]

Well now, Netenyahu is seen by Turkey as finished:

Turkey recalls ambassador to Israel over ‘humanitarian tragedy in Gaza’

President Erdogan says he is breaking contact with PM Netanyahu but is not cutting relations with Israel over Gaza.

www.aljazeera.com

View attachment 398558

Is there anyone who doesn't see Netanyahu as finished? The Hamas attack ensured that. He has no long term political future and those corruption allegations will probably mean jail beckons. Not that that will stop the carnage of the present.

I hope Erdogan goes the same way.

 

[PTK]

It seems that the Spartacist League is opposed to calling for ceasefire:

"The task of building an anti-imperialist pole in the trade unions must also include unmasking those on the left who call for the imperialist powers to broker “peace” and a “ceasefire”. This is what Jeremy Corbyn has been promoting and, as events are unfolding, this is becoming a more popular position. Such a position gives the appearance of siding with Palestinians. But a ceasefire solves nothing: it means the continuation of Palestinian oppression and the conditions that led to this crisis in the first place."

Liberal outrage won’t stop Gaza massacre

Organise the anti-imperialist struggle!

www.icl-fi.org

 

[Johnny Vodka]

It seems that the Spartacist League is opposed to calling for ceasefire:

"The task of building an anti-imperialist pole in the trade unions must also include unmasking those on the left who call for the imperialist powers to broker “peace” and a “ceasefire”. This is what Jeremy Corbyn has been promoting and, as events are unfolding, this is becoming a more popular position. Such a position gives the appearance of siding with Palestinians. But a ceasefire solves nothing: it means the continuation of Palestinian oppression and the conditions that led to this crisis in the first place."

Liberal outrage won’t stop Gaza massacre

Organise the anti-imperialist struggle!

www.icl-fi.org

Strange. So you call for a ceasefire - then kickstart a peace process which fully acknowledges what has been taken from the Palestinians over the past ~ seven decades.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

A ceasefire stops the slaughter. That's all.

The rest is a strawman. Not sure who thinks that will lead seamlessly to justice.

When a genocide is happening, first stop the genocide.

 

[tim]

Here is the Amnesty definition,

This is apartheid.

Israel's apartheid against Palestinians

Palestinians are systematically subjected to home demolitions and forced evictions, and live in constant fear of losing their homes. For more than 73 years, Israel has been forcibly displacing entire Palestinian communities. Hundreds of thousands of Palestinians’ homes have been demolished...

www.amnesty.org

Apartheid is word used to cover these laws , policies and practices.

What Im not clear on is the objection to the specific word or is it objection to saying Israel is maintaining a system of control over Palestinians as HRW and Amnesty reports say?

tim

If you take which a broader definition but only include a state which has a Jewish majority and leadership alongside South Africa, and excludes the crimes of states with Christian, Buddhist Muslim Hindu or self-defined secular majorities and leadership, then something stinks about the use made of the definition.

If I'm wrong, explain to me, logically, how Burma; China with specific focus on the Uyghur, Sri Lanka, Croatia, Serbia, Turkey, Bhutan, Iran and Cyprus are not Apartheid states? All have seen state over recent decades behaviour akin to to that of Israel. You might also reflect upon the British regime in Ireland over the past century.

 

[PTK]

If you take which a broader definition but only include a state which has a Jewish majority and leadership alongside South Africa, and excludes the crimes of states with Christian, Buddhist Muslim Hindu or self-defined secular majorities and leadership, then something stinks about the use made of the definition.

If I'm wrong, explain to me, logically, how Burma; China with specific focus on the Uyghur, Sri Lanka, Croatia, Serbia, Turkey, Bhutan, Iran and Cyprus are not Apartheid states? All have seen state over recent decades behaviour akin to to that of Israel. You might also reflect upon the British regime in Ireland over the past century.

I think that when you have different roads for different ethnic groups, that indicates that you have something akin to apartheid.

 

[johnwesley]

The wrong kind of Jews apparently........

Editor's Notes: No longer part of us

While they may still technically be Jewish due to their parentage or conversion, while they may lead superficially Jewish lives, we can no longer consider them part of Klal Yisrael.

www.jpost.com

 

[two sheds]

No true Scotsman ...

 

[mojo pixy]

The wrong kind of Jews apparently........

Editor's Notes: No longer part of us

While they may still technically be Jewish due to their parentage or conversion, while they may lead superficially Jewish lives, we can no longer consider them part of Klal Yisrael.

www.jpost.com

Damn, what a poisonous shit of an article that is.

 

[belboid]

If you take which a broader definition but only include a state which has a Jewish majority and leadership alongside South Africa, and excludes the crimes of states with Christian, Buddhist Muslim Hindu or self-defined secular majorities and leadership, then something stinks about the use made of the definition.

If I'm wrong, explain to me, logically, how Burma; China with specific focus on the Uyghur, Sri Lanka, Croatia, Serbia, Turkey, Bhutan, Iran and Cyprus are not Apartheid states? All have seen state over recent decades behaviour akin to to that of Israel. You might also reflect upon the British regime in Ireland over the past century.

Croatia and Serbia underwent brutal ethnic cleansing, attempting genocide. We call that 'genocide.' No need to compare it with apartheid, it's even worse.

In the other cases (and in them in their current states) , it's up to you to provide us with the racial laws that encode the discrimination. It is those laws that make the difference. In some cases, there have been attempts to set up apartheid states, but I'm not convinced the examples you have chosen would meet the criteria.

 

[Wilf]

If you take which a broader definition but only include a state which has a Jewish majority and leadership alongside South Africa, and excludes the crimes of states with Christian, Buddhist Muslim Hindu or self-defined secular majorities and leadership, then something stinks about the use made of the definition.

If I'm wrong, explain to me, logically, how Burma; China with specific focus on the Uyghur, Sri Lanka, Croatia, Serbia, Turkey, Bhutan, Iran and Cyprus are not Apartheid states? All have seen state over recent decades behaviour akin to to that of Israel. You might also reflect upon the British regime in Ireland over the past century.

I'm not overly worried about precise definitions or who you admit into the apartheid club at this precise moment. It's about the vision that Israel has of the Palestinians, the theft of resources, the ethnic cleansing, the control of the day to day material conditions of life and the vastly asymmetrical war that has been pursued since 1948. I'm happy to describe all those things stacked up as apartheid and Israel as an apartheid state.

 

[johnwesley]

A small ray of hope in the darkness.

An Israeli shell killed three of my daughters. But I shall not hate
Palestinian doctor Izzeldin Abuelaish has lost many relatives to war in Gaza. He condemns the October 7 attacks, but refuses to give in to darkness and loathing

https://archive.ph/zBLSm#selection-1857.0-1875.160

 

[Gramsci]

If you take which a broader definition but only include a state which has a Jewish majority and leadership alongside South Africa, and excludes the crimes of states with Christian, Buddhist Muslim Hindu or self-defined secular majorities and leadership, then something stinks about the use made of the definition.

If I'm wrong, explain to me, logically, how Burma; China with specific focus on the Uyghur, Sri Lanka, Croatia, Serbia, Turkey, Bhutan, Iran and Cyprus are not Apartheid states? All have seen state over recent decades behaviour akin to to that of Israel. You might also reflect upon the British regime in Ireland over the past century.

Not what I was asking about. My question was:

What Im not clear on is the objection to the specific word or is it objection to saying Israel is maintaining a system of control over Palestinians as HRW and Amnesty reports say?

So to make it clear to me.

Your objection is to the word Apartheid ?

Not the findings of the Amnesty and HRW reports that Israel is maintaining a system of control over Palestinians. To their detriment.
So the findings are ok but the word is not?

 

[PTK]

.

 

[tim]

Not what I was asking about. My question was:

What Im not clear on is the objection to the specific word or is it objection to saying Israel is maintaining a system of control over Palestinians as HRW and Amnesty reports say?

So to make it clear to me.

Your objection is to the word Apartheid ?

Not the findings of the Amnesty and HRW reports that Israel is maintaining a system of control over Palestinians. To their detriment.
So the findings are ok but the word is not?

This is a repeat but:

1. I think the term Apartheid is so specific to the vile racial laws imposed on the people of South Africa, that it makes little sense to apply it elsewhere. The Israelis do not employ medics to measure the size of your nose; the amount of melanin in your skin or the curliness if your hair. They oppress and discriminate against people because of their cultural background and religion.

2. However if you do seek to give Apartheid a broader definition, that definition should be applied to all regimes, such as the ones I mentioned above,that adopt policies akin to those the Israelis.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

2. However if you do seek to give Apartheid a broader definition, that definition should be applied to all regimes, such as the ones I mentioned above,that adopt policies akin to those the Israelis.

They don't, though. You've given a lot of examples, but just to take one, as pointed out, Chinese oppression of the Uyghurs involves attempts at forced assimilation. That's nothing like what Israel is doing. They're not trying to turn Palestinians into Jews. They're trying to keep them physically separated from Jews and ultimately to expel them. Now we're moving into apartheid territory. What is the West Bank if not a series of Bantustans?

 

[Gramsci]

This is a repeat but:

1. I think the term Apartheid is so specific to the vile racial laws imposed on the people of South Africa, that it makes little sense to apply it elsewhere. The Israelis do not employ medics to measure the size of your nose; the amount of melanin in your skin or the curliness if your hair. They oppress and discriminate against people because of their cultural background and religion.

2. However if you do seek to give Apartheid a broader definition, that definition should be applied to all regimes, such as the ones I mentioned above,that adopt policies akin to those the Israelis.

So you agree Israel is racist state.

I cant help feeling from your posting this is the whataboutery argument.

Yes Israel is racist in way it treats Palestinians. Taking their land, keeping them under military occupation and now bombing civilians. But lots of other states do this kind of thing and dont get the same scrutiny.

In short Israel has in past and continues to oppress the indigenous people but so do other states?

So what is your underlying resentment here?

That the hundreds out protesting are unfairly targeting Israel? That Israel is held to higher standards than other countries? That anti semitism underlays it?

 

[tim]

So you agree Israel is racist state.

I cant help feeling from your posting this is the whataboutery argument.

Yes Israel is racist in way it treats Palestinians. Taking their land, keeping them under military occupation and now bombing civilians. But lots of other states do this kind of thing and dont get the same scrutiny.

In short Israel has in past and continues to oppress the indigenous people but so do other states?

So what is your underlying resentment here?

That the hundreds out protesting are unfairly targeting Israel? That Israel is held to higher standards than other countries? That anti semitism underlays it?

I think people should be in the streets and fucking the British Government and the Labour Party over for their support of the slaughter in Gaza. I think Israel needs to be targeted as do those murderous cunts in Hamas.

 

[WhyLikeThis]

Israel isn’t just racist against Palestinians.

Ethiopian women in Israel 'given contraceptive without consent'

Israel's health ministry is investigating claims that Ethiopian immigrants have unwittingly had Depo-Provera jabs for years

www.theguardian.com

 

[belboid]

This is a repeat but:

1. I think the term Apartheid is so specific to the vile racial laws imposed on the people of South Africa, that it makes little sense to apply it elsewhere. The Israelis do not employ medics to measure the size of your nose; the amount of melanin in your skin or the curliness if your hair. They oppress and discriminate against people because of their cultural background and religion.

2. However if you do seek to give Apartheid a broader definition, that definition should be applied to all regimes, such as the ones I mentioned above,that adopt policies akin to those the Israelis.

Both of these points are completely wrong though.

1. The precise form of racial classification isn't really the issue, it is the fact that the classification exists. And whilst Israel doesn't measure the curliness of hair, it does get to decide upon who is 'really' Jewish enough. It's been a major complaint of would be migrants from the ex-USSR as well as thousands of western converts and wild be migrants who have had their whole Jewishness removed by the Rabbinate. Every system of racial separation requires its gatekeepers.

2. I have already pointed out why this is wrong, so I won't repeat those points, In brief tho, there are big differences between trying to completely wipe out other groups, trying to assimilate them, and trying to keep them separate, exploited and oppressed. If the latter is done under explicit racial laws, then it is apartheid.

 

[xenon]

It seems that the Spartacist League is opposed to calling for ceasefire:

"The task of building an anti-imperialist pole in the trade unions must also include unmasking those on the left who call for the imperialist powers to broker “peace” and a “ceasefire”. This is what Jeremy Corbyn has been promoting and, as events are unfolding, this is becoming a more popular position. Such a position gives the appearance of siding with Palestinians. But a ceasefire solves nothing: it means the continuation of Palestinian oppression and the conditions that led to this crisis in the first place."

Liberal outrage won’t stop Gaza massacre

Organise the anti-imperialist struggle!

www.icl-fi.org

I was wondering what the Spartacists take on this was. Said no one ever.

 

[PTK]

I was wondering what the Spartacists take on this was. Said no one ever.

It is a good example of stupid ultra leftism.

 

[spring-peeper]

Good on Hamas and Egypt

Hamas Halts Foreigners' Evacuations Till Injured Moved From Gaza Hospitals: Report

Gaza's Hamas government suspended the evacuation of foreign passport holders to Egypt Saturday after Israel refused to allow some wounded Palestinians to be evacuated to Egyptian hospitals, a border official said.

www.ndtv.com

Gaza's Hamas government suspended the evacuation of foreign passport holders to Egypt Saturday after Israel refused to allow some wounded Palestinians to be evacuated to Egyptian hospitals, a border official said.

"No foreign passport holder will be able to leave the Gaza Strip until wounded people who need to be evacuated from hospitals in north Gaza are transported through the Rafah crossing" to Egypt, the official said on condition of anonymity.

An Egyptian security source confirmed to AFP that "no wounded person or holder of a foreign passport arrived at the Egyptian terminal" of Rafah on Saturday.

He said the evacuation was suspended "after the bombing of ambulances transporting injured people who were on their way to the Egyptian terminal".


Canada has not gotten any nationals out yet.

 

[Kid_Eternity]

Looks like there’s another variable to consider in how this plays out…

Protesters mass outside Israeli PM Netanyahu's house as anger grows — Reuters

Police held back protesters outside the residence of Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu on Saturday, amid widespread anger at the failures that led to last month's deadly attack by Hamas gunmen on communities around the Gaza Strip.

apple.news