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Hamas/Israel conflict: news and discussion

tim said:
It's a state that encourages the building and expansion of illegal settlements and land theft. I think BDS us a useful tool to put pressure on the regime

If Israel is an Apartheid state than so is: China because of its treatment of Uyghurs and Tibetans; Iran because of treatment of Kurds and and other minorities including Arabs who like Palestinians are killed driven from their land and replaced by Persian settlers; Pakistan because at its creation in 1948 millions of Hindus and Sikhs were murdered of driven into exile abd where religious minorities are officially second class citizens who are denied civil rights and face murderous persecution; ; Myanmar because of their murder and expulsion of the Rohinigha and their oppression of the Karen people; Sri Lanka because of the oppression and slaughter of Tamils; and Saudi Arabia and Bahrain because of of their murderous oppression of Shi'a.
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If you had been reading my posts you will have seen Ive compared what is happening in Gaza to then end game in Sri Lanka. Where Tamil Tigers were finally destroyed with a great deal of brutality by the government. Looks to me that is what is envisaged in Gaza.

Glad we can agree Israel is a state that practises Apartheid. Something Isreali and UK human rights organisations say
 
tim said:
It's a state that encourages the building and expansion of illegal settlements and land theft. I think BDS us a useful tool to put pressure on the regime

If Israel is an Apartheid state than so is: China because of its treatment of Uyghurs and Tibetans; Iran because of treatment of Kurds and and other minorities including Arabs who like Palestinians are killed driven from their land and replaced by Persian settlers; Pakistan because at its creation in 1948 millions of Hindus and Sikhs were murdered of driven into exile abd where religious minorities are officially second class citizens who are denied civil rights and face murderous persecution; ; Myanmar because of their murder and expulsion of the Rohinigha and their oppression of the Karen people; Sri Lanka because of the oppression and slaughter of Tamils; and Saudi Arabia and Bahrain because of of their murderous oppression of Shi'a.
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a fair point

ive done a bit of wikipedia searching
a definition of apartheid state is
The United Nations General Assembly adopted the International Convention on the Suppression and Punishment of the Crime of Apartheid (ICSPCA) in 1973. The ICSPCA defines apartheid as "inhuman acts committed for the purpose of establishing and maintaining domination by one racial group ... over another racial group ... and systematically oppressing them".[44]

The crime of apartheid was further defined in 2002 by Article 7 of the Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court as encompassing inhumane acts such as torture, murder, forcible transfer, imprisonment, or persecution of an identifiable group on political, racial, national, ethnic, cultural, religious, or other grounds, "committed in the context of an institutionalized regime of systematic oppression and domination by one racial group over any racial group or groups and committed with the intention of maintaining that regime".[45]
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I would imagine Human Rights Watch and Amnesty have deeper criteria
www.hrw.org

A Threshold Crossed

The 213-page report, “A Threshold Crossed: Israeli Authorities and the Crimes of Apartheid and Persecution,” examines Israel’s treatment of Palestinians. It presents the present-day reality of a single authority, the Israeli government, ruling primarily over the area between the Jordan River and...
www.hrw.org www.hrw.org
...points out that the definition of apartheid state is blurry legally and hard to pin down

then there's this list

Allegations of apartheid by country - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org

...clearly some cases are much stronger than others...the USA may have deep institutional racism running through it but it's a stretch I think to call it an apartheid state...i would say it was in its past, when segregation was explicit, but the situation has improved over time

In my mind explicit enforced geographic segregation based on ethnicity is the essential component of apart-heid - thats the core of what the word means in its original sense
 
Rob Ray said:
You missed out various Gulf States' behaviour towards migrant workers, and of course arguably our own. But yes lots of countries fulfill some or all of the criteria. Israel didn't help it's own case with the 2018 law explicitly saying so, of course.
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The master criminal always makes one fatal error...
 
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tim said:
It's a state that encourages the building and expansion of illegal settlements and land theft. I think BDS us a useful tool to put pressure on the regime

If Israel is an Apartheid state than so is: China because of its treatment of Uyghurs and Tibetans; Iran because of treatment of Kurds and and other minorities including Arabs who like Palestinians are killed driven from their land and replaced by Persian settlers; Pakistan because at its creation in 1948 millions of Hindus and Sikhs were murdered of driven into exile abd where religious minorities are officially second class citizens who are denied civil rights and face murderous persecution; ; Myanmar because of their murder and expulsion of the Rohinigha and their oppression of the Karen people; Sri Lanka because of the oppression and slaughter of Tamils; and Saudi Arabia and Bahrain because of of their murderous oppression of Shi'a.
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Just out of interest do you support a ceasefire? As many have been calling for one
 
Jesus, check out these delusional mumblings

Wednesday, Biden engaged further with the woman who interrupted the event in Minneapolis. “I’m the guy that convinced Bibi to call for a ceasefire to let the prisoners out. I’m the guy that talked to Sisi to convince him to open the door”

I think he actually believes that he's a force of good in all in this...
 
The intractable issue is how many of the examples given are for to lines on a map drawn c.100-200 years ago at the genesis of what we think of as modern nation states. They're now seen as untouchable boundaries. And whether its Punjab, Palestine, Kurdistan, no number of round table discussion will end with the maps being redrawn. Look at Bosnia/Republika Srbska, a modern attempt at drawing boundaries.
 
ska invita said:
Jesus, check out these delusional mumblings

Wednesday, Biden engaged further with the woman who interrupted the event in Minneapolis. “I’m the guy that convinced Bibi to call for a ceasefire to let the prisoners out. I’m the guy that talked to Sisi to convince him to open the door”

I think he actually believes that he's a force of good in all in this...
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Yeah I bet he felt really good about himself when he was leaning on the Qataris to stop al Jazeera from reporting what was actually happening in Gaza.
 
PR1Berske said:
The intractable issue is how many of the examples given are for to lines on a map drawn c.100-200 years ago at the genesis of what we think of as modern nation states. They're now seen as untouchable boundaries. And whether its Punjab, Palestine, Kurdistan, no number of round table discussion will end with the maps being redrawn. Look at Bosnia/Republika Srbska, a modern attempt at drawing boundaries.
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nation state formation is by its nature usually racist/chauvinistic or involves some kind of ethnic separation process (aka war)...as a rule of thumb if a country seems stable now its because its been through it already at some point in the past - fair to say?

hard to think of many states that were formed on multicultural/multiethnic lines...soviet union? Jamaica's motto is Out of Many One People, could just about count I guess, the process of self-liberation from being a slave colony does bypass the ethno-state ideology bit...the fact that its an island also helps
??

SpookyFrank said:
Yeah I bet he felt really good about himself when he was leaning on the Qataris to stop al Jazeera from reporting what was actually happening in Gaza.
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i cant stop thinking about 14 billion dollars of more weapons coming from the US that he's procuring
 
mojo pixy said:
And at the time that was called terrorism, indeed IIRC the modern use of the word specifically to mean non-state actors aiming to achieve political ends by use of murder, was coined in reactions to the King David Hotel bombing, eg. Clement Attlee used the word in a speech to the commons in July 1946 : "this insane act of terrorism"
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Apologies for the digression, my grandma worked as a nurse in Jerusalem during the last few years of the British mandate, and had to attend to the casualties of the hotel bombing. She only spoke about the bombing once and said it was horrible - she was primarily a midwife.

Despite that she had very happy memories of Jerusalem and said the hospital staff were a mix of Jews (as in the pre 1948 resident Jewish population I think, not post WW2 immigration), Muslims and Christians and everyone got on, admittedly that’s within a narrow professional setting.
 
Speaking of Qatar, Douglas Murray in the Spectator reckons now is the point at which Britain should divest from it. Not last year, when Britain made £3.4bn in arms sales to Qatar and it hosted the 2022 World Cup in which its appalling human rights record was highlighted (he was critical but liked it happening on the grounds it highlighted said record). Or indeed, presumably, earlier this year when he flew to Qatar to participate in a pompous public debate.
 
Elpenor said:
Apologies for the digression, my grandma worked as a nurse in Jerusalem during the last few years of the British mandate, and had to attend to the casualties of the hotel bombing. She only spoke about the bombing once and said it was horrible - she was primarily a midwife.

Despite that she had very happy memories of Jerusalem and said the hospital staff were a mix of Jews (as in the pre 1948 resident Jewish population I think, not post WW2 immigration), Muslims and Christians and everyone got on, admittedly that’s within a narrow professional setting.
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I worked as a football coach with kids on an American Jewish camp in America in the late 70s and they showed a documentary on the bombing as part of an induction for staff.
 
tim said:
It's a state that encourages the building and expansion of illegal settlements and land theft. I think BDS us a useful tool to put pressure on the regime

If Israel is an Apartheid state than so is: China because of its treatment of Uyghurs and Tibetans; Iran because of treatment of Kurds and and other minorities including Arabs who like Palestinians are killed driven from their land and replaced by Persian settlers; Pakistan because at its creation in 1948 millions of Hindus and Sikhs were murdered of driven into exile abd where religious minorities are officially second class citizens who are denied civil rights and face murderous persecution; ; Myanmar because of their murder and expulsion of the Rohinigha and their oppression of the Karen people; Sri Lanka because of the oppression and slaughter of Tamils; and Saudi Arabia and Bahrain because of of their murderous oppression of Shi'a.
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you don't know the difference between apartheid and racism. You've just shoved a bunch of different types of oppression together to, effectively, minimise criticism of the actual apartheid state. A line its defenders often take.
 
cupid_stunt said:
I believe the gas and oil find is true, I read a report about that a few weeks ago.
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It's got conspiraloon written all over it.
Israel does have natural gas reserves (mostly offshore in the Med) though virtually no petroleum There is enough to have a significant effect on domestic consumption with a bit for export but they're not going to shift the Saudi's off the top of the tree.

International - U.S. Energy Information Administration (EIA)

www.eia.gov www.eia.gov
On the list of 100 reasons why the Israeli regime would like to drive out the Palestinians this is probably about No 98/99
 
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Cloo said:
Watching arguments play out online I've decided I'm just not a fan of the term 'Zionist', it's been so bounced around that no one really knows what it means anymore. I've seen people, who I think are well meaning, essentially have a line that implies 'the right kind of Jew is Antizionist and the wrong kind of Jew is Zionist'. But I don't think Zionism has ever mean 'agreeing wholesale with the policy of Israel' or 'hating Palestinians', surely in essence it means supporting the existence of a Jewish state? Which to me seems a moot point because there is a Jewish state? I mean, guys, we have one. You won't find many Jews who say Israel shouldn't exist. I honestly don't know what all this makes me - I'm kind of fairly indifferent as to whether we have a Jewish state or not personally, and I'm all for a strong diaspora and I've always preferred to give money to, I dunno, help maintain Jewish communities in Moldova than to give money so they can all make aliyah to live in Israel. I don't feel 'Zionist', but I'm not 'Antizionist' either... it was a fucking stupid place to put a Jewish state, though I really do see why they did it if you read about the situation after the death and concentration camps were liberated, but it is there and it's not going away. It doesn't care if I'm pro or anti a Jewish state in general.

'Zionist' has always been coloured by it's use by hardcore antisemites to mean 'Evil world-controlling overlords' which doesn't help.

Sorry, I am using this thread as a bit of a brain dump...
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I have, and have had, Jewish friends whose anti-Zionism has been integral to their whole being, who make pronouncements which I might shy away from for fear of being misunderstood. All have come from socialist/communist/anarchist backgrounds. They too associate'Zionism' with the far right, the Jewish far right. I don't think you will ever find a completely neutral terminology here, as, among other things, the pro-Israel lobby will attempt to tarnish any such terminology. See, I've just used the term 'pro-Israel lobby.' That could be interpreted so many ways if you wanted to. So I think I will use the term Zionist to mean a supporter of the existing Israeli state, with all its injustices, racism and colonialist reality.
 
belboid said:
you don't know the difference between apartheid and racism. You've just shoved a bunch of different types of oppression together to, effectively, minimise criticism of the actual apartheid state. A line its defenders often take.
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Yes, as badly as minorities are treated in China, they have the same formal rights as everyone else, allowing for the complications of the household registration system, which is not the case for Palestinians. A Tibetan might not be able to live as they wish in their hometown but they could move to the big city and live like their Han neighbour if they jump through the same hoops as anyone from out of town has to.
 
JimW said:
Yes, as badly as minorities are treated in China, they have the same formal rights as everyone else, allowing for the complications of the household registration system, which is not the case for Palestinians. A Tibetan might not be able to live as they wish in their hometown but they could move to the big city and live like their Han neighbour if they jump through the same hoops as anyone from out of town has to.
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Yep. I reserve the term apartheid specifically for a situation in which there is a racist legal framework in place. Segretationist USA qualified. South Africa of course qualified. Israel qualifies.
 
SpookyFrank said:
I don't think the Israelis would have any qualms about just stealing natural resources from Palestinian territory, even before this latest incursion.
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They didn't let the conflict stop them handing out new exploration licenses just a few days ago

www.timesofisrael.com

Amid ongoing war, BP and Eni among firms awarded gas exploration licenses in Israel

Energy Ministry says a total of 12 licenses have been given to six companies, four of which are new players in the exploration of natural gas off the country's Mediterranean coast
www.timesofisrael.com www.timesofisrael.com
 
This article in Al J does a good job of encapsulating the appropriate contempt for the West's reaction to the genocide.

In a speech oozing with empty bureaucrat-speak that could have been delivered by his discredited soul mate and mentor, Tony Blair, Starmer told an agreeable think-tank audience at Chatham House on Tuesday that: “While I understand calls for a ceasefire at this stage, I do not believe that it is the correct position now.”

To be clear: It is the pretend English socialist’s belief that ending the disfiguring and killing of Palestinian infants and children, the carpet bombing of schools, hospitals and refugee camps sheltering wounded and petrified families, and the siege of millions of Palestinians deprived of food, water, fuel, and electricity is not “the correct position now”.

As I wrote: sociopaths in suits.
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Sociopaths in suits
 
a few years down the line:
'at the time I whole-heartedly believed that not calling for a ceasefire was the right thing to do, and I now stand by my decision, as, at the time, I believed it to be the right decision'.

ugghhs
 
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