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Hamas/Israel conflict: news and discussion

littlebabyjesus said:
He makes good points, but the entire article is based on a false premise, namely that Israel's goal here is to defeat Hamas. Far from seeking to separate Hamas from the population, they are very keen to blur the lines and have 'Hamas' and 'Palestinian' become synonymous. Hence the president's comments - a supposedly moderate Labour person, remember.

And why would they seek to fully integrate Hamas with the population in Gaza? Well that's simple. They want to evict the entire population - to Egypt, or somewhere, they don't care.

I think sometimes commentators like the above just can't bring themselves to admit how awful the Israeli government, its aims and its methods truly are.
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I suppose he is moderate. For a zionist.
 
tim said:
.

Zionism isn't a living thing it's nebulous nationalist ideology whose proponents have never had a united cohesive view of coexistence with Palestinians or of much else.
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I don't think the farmer grieving over his dead son shot by armed settler couple of days ago would think Zionism was "nebulous" ideology

Nor a resident of Gaza ( a journalist) whose wife and child were killed by Israeli bomb.

Both real world examples
 
Cloo said:
Yes, some leaders might be sincere about defeating a force like Hamas, but Netanyahu is a demagogue like Putin or Trump. Foremost he wants a dehumanised enemy that Only He Can Stand Against.
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Age of the septocrats; see also Modi, Xi etc. Legacy.
 
And that's just one hospital...
This was from two days ago:
"Since the start of hostilities, over one-third of hospitals in Gaza (12 of 35) and nearly two-thirds of primary health care clinics (46 of 72) have shut down due to damage or lack of fuel, increasing the pressure on the remaining health facilities that are still operational"...

There was a post upthread that suggested the war would last two months (speculation).....Netanyahu has described it as the start of a long war... Things seem bad now but would appear to me to be about to get exponentially worse. ..
 
From the Guardian

The Football Association will consult the police if players use the phrase “from the river to the sea” in relation to the conflict in Israel and Gaza. The governing body’s statement comes after a now-deleted post on X, formally known as Twitter, by Leicester’s Hamza Choudhury.

The phrase, which refers to land between the Mediterranean Sea and River Jordan, is often used in support of Palestine but some interpret it as antisemitic.

‘From the river to the sea’: where does the slogan come from and what does it mean?
The Anti-Defamation League, a civil rights group, describes the phrase as: “An antisemitic charge denying the Jewish right to self-determination, including through the removal of Jews from their ancestral homeland.”


Choudhury will not face any disciplinary action from the FA but a spokesperson said: “After careful consideration, we will be writing to all clubs to make it clear that this phrase is considered offensive to many, and should not be used by players in social media posts. The player has apologised and deleted the tweet.

“We are strongly encouraging clubs to ensure that players do not post content which may be offensive or inflammatory to any community.

“If this phrase is used again by a football participant, we will seek police guidance on how we should treat it and respond.”

During a pro-Palestine demonstration in London on Saturday, some protesters chanted the phrase. The Labour MP Andy McDonald has been suspended by his party pending an investigation after saying between the river and the sea Palestinians and Israelis “can live in peaceful liberty” at a protest in London organised by the Palestine Solidarity Campaign at the weekend.


The anti-discrimination organisation Kick It Out said they recognised opinions are divided over the conflict in the Middle East. “We urge caution for those who take to social media where messages can be misinterpreted and can cause offence. As always, we would underline the importance of education.”

Choudhury posted an apology on X on Monday: “I want to address my earlier post which has unfortunately been misinterpreted. It was and is not my intention to cause offence to anyone but simply to show compassion for the innocent people that are suffering.

“I’m sorry for any offence this has caused. I share the hope of people around the world that a peaceful resolution can bring an end to the ongoing suffering of innocent people in this conflict.”


Meanwhile, a new statement by the Mainz forward Anwar El Ghazi regarding the Israel-Hamas conflict has left his Bundesliga club perplexed. He had been warned and suspended last month for posting about the conflict on social media but was cleared to return to training after showing remorse.

But El Ghazi posted another statement saying: “I do not regret or have any remorse for my position. I do not distance myself from what I said and I stand, today and always until my last breath, for humanity and the oppressed.”

Mainz said that was “incomprehensible” and they would examine it from a legal perspective.
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Pickman's model said:
I see talk of ancestral homelands in that article. Don't the Palestinians have an ancestral homeland, namely Palestine?
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And it wasn't just 'some' people chanting that at the demos. It was loads of people. In full, it is 'From the River to the Sea/ Palestine will be Free'. Those condemning it always leave out that second line, funnily enough.
 
As Anarchism has come up found this one page short history of Anarchism. Covers Israeli side of it

theanarchistlibrary.org

Anarchism in Israel and Palestine

Uri Gordon Anarchism in Israel and Palestine 2009 Published in The International Encyclopedia of Revolution and Protest.
theanarchistlibrary.org theanarchistlibrary.org

Different waves of Anarchism influence. As Anarchism was big in Europe at one point not surprising those who went to Palestine ( pre State of Israel ) included libertarian socialists and Anarchist.

Early Anarchist influence was on the Kibbutz idea. Communal living etc.

Noticed it says this:

In the later 1920s, with the influx of private capital into the country and increasing economic and political control of the Kibbutzim by the central Jewish institutions in Palestine dominated by Ben Gurion’s Mapai Party, anarchist tendencies in Palestine weakened.
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Ben Gurion later became a leader of the ethnic cleansing of Palestine in 48

So could be that early stage of Zionism was not necessarily about clearing Palestinians out of their land. But creating a space for European Jews to construct a libertarian socialist settlements in Palestine that did not include forcing Palestinians off their land.

The article also has later wave( after State of Israel established) of more arts/ cultural/ philosophical orientated Anarchism.

Must say Ilan Pappe ( the Israeli born anti Zionist) is quite scathing of Israeli bohemianism. As it took place in villages that were formerly Palestinian.

The we are so liberal / radical and nice lets forget who used to live here.

Then a third wave- anti capitalist/ Punk. This lot to their credit got involved in opposing the Wall/ resisting the draft and supporting Palestinians against being evicted.

So there is a brave small Anarchist influenced loose movement based around opposing Zionism.

Which is a bit different from early days. When Zionism could possibly be compatible with more libertarian socialism

Unless Im reading this wrong

Oh and Ben Gurion crops up a lot in my reading. If anyone is to be blamed for the way Zionism has gone its him

A nasty Ethnic Cleanser.
 
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PR1Berske said:
From the Guardian
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After reading that Kick it Out and Anti Defamation League can go fuck themselves.

More shit like this I read coming from organisations like this and my political betters Starmer and Braverman the more I want to get on the next demo waving the Palestine Flag and shouting to the river to the sea.

Im fucked off with these up themselves groups and polticians telling me what to do.

The political establishment can go take a hike.

Christ almighty threatening a player for supporting Palestinians with the police. Fuck off.

This is not directed at you btw. Thanks for bringing it to my attention why I despise these people so much
 
Watching arguments play out online I've decided I'm just not a fan of the term 'Zionist', it's been so bounced around that no one really knows what it means anymore. I've seen people, who I think are well meaning, essentially have a line that implies 'the right kind of Jew is Antizionist and the wrong kind of Jew is Zionist'. But I don't think Zionism has ever mean 'agreeing wholesale with the policy of Israel' or 'hating Palestinians', surely in essence it means supporting the existence of a Jewish state? Which to me seems a moot point because there is a Jewish state? I mean, guys, we have one. You won't find many Jews who say Israel shouldn't exist. I honestly don't know what all this makes me - I'm kind of fairly indifferent as to whether we have a Jewish state or not personally, and I'm all for a strong diaspora and I've always preferred to give money to, I dunno, help maintain Jewish communities in Moldova than to give money so they can all make aliyah to live in Israel. I don't feel 'Zionist', but I'm not 'Antizionist' either... it was a fucking stupid place to put a Jewish state, though I really do see why they did it if you read about the situation after the death and concentration camps were liberated, but it is there and it's not going away. It doesn't care if I'm pro or anti a Jewish state in general.

'Zionist' has always been coloured by it's use by hardcore antisemites to mean 'Evil world-controlling overlords' which doesn't help.

Sorry, I am using this thread as a bit of a brain dump...
 
Ive started reading the Moshe Machovaer link posted up helpfully by another poster

matzpen.org

The Other Israel (1972): The Radical Case Against Zionism - Matzpen.org/English

In the spring and summer of 1970, Arie Bober (died 2003), then member of Matzpen, made a speaking tour of the US, sponsored by the Committee on New Alternatives in the Middle East (CONAME). Among the sponsors of CONAME […]
matzpen.org matzpen.org

Also found this online version on Matzpen influential book

matzpen.org

The Other Israel (1972): The Radical Case Against Zionism - Matzpen.org/English

In the spring and summer of 1970, Arie Bober (died 2003), then member of Matzpen, made a speaking tour of the US, sponsored by the Committee on New Alternatives in the Middle East (CONAME). Among the sponsors of CONAME […]
matzpen.org matzpen.org
 
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