Hamas/Israel conflict: news and discussion

[PTK]

Earlier than that, in fact. It was first used to describe the Reign of Terror in France. That's the state's reign, not individuals (or non-state groups).

For non-state forces, the Irish Rebellion of 1798 seems to be the first occasion.

The Terrorists in Russia were inspired by the Reign of Terror.

 

[Kid_Eternity]

hmm is the propoganda starting to get to you

I’d suggest if you think that you’d need to pay closer attention to the propoganda you’re subject too. Hamas have killed Jews in a brutal attack on civilians, their leaders talk openly about wiping them off the face of the earth.

If that’s not terrorism I’m not sure there’s a reasonable definition that can be agreed to.

 

[Pickman's model]

Statement from Fauda, Anarchist Group in Palestine – 🏴 Anarchist Federation

Anarchist news from 400+ collectives ð´ AnarchistFederation

www.anarchistfederation.net

And what is your view?

 

[Pickman's model]

.

 

[Pickman's model]

I’d suggest if you think that you’d need to pay closer attention to the propoganda you’re subject too. Hamas have killed Jews in a brutal attack on civilians, their leaders talk openly about wiping them off the face of the earth.

If that’s not terrorism I’m not sure there’s a reasonable definition that can be agreed to.

Talk is not terrorism

 

[Pickman's model]

fair point but comparing one terrorist attack to a repeat of the Nazi final solution is a little bit of hyperbolic statement

like that Pratt yesterday at the UN saying he going to wear a star of David unless they all agree that bombing civilians is the only effective method of dealing with hamas

There's a lot of hyperbollocks on this thread

 

[Larry O'Hara]

This is a grotesque comment.

No it is a reasoned response

 

[Knotted]

Fathom journal is not meant to be read. It's not written that way. It's not going to tell you something you didn't already know or offer insights. It's there to provide a kind of empty sustenance for those who like to know that there is a quasi-academic journal for liberal zionists. See also Terry Pratchet's concept of dwarf bread.

 

[Pickman's model]

This is a grotesque comment.

You think he should demand the death of every British citizen I suppose

 

[TopCat]

fair point but comparing one terrorist attack to a repeat of the Nazi final solution is a little bit of hyperbolic statement

like that Pratt yesterday at the UN saying he going to wear a star of David unless they all agree that bombing civilians is the only effective method of dealing with hamas

Oh totally. There are some batshit crazy supporters of Zionism about.

 

[TopCat]

I’d suggest if you think that you’d need to pay closer attention to the propoganda you’re subject too. Hamas have killed Jews in a brutal attack on civilians, their leaders talk openly about wiping them off the face of the earth.

If that’s not terrorism I’m not sure there’s a reasonable definition that can be agreed to.

The IDF have killed Palestinians in brutal attacks on civilians, their leaders talk openly about wiping them from the face of the earth.

 

[Raheem]

Talk is not terrorism

Talk TV, on the other hand...

 

[Gramsci]

Opinion: There’s a smarter way to eliminate Hamas — CNN

Israel’s strategy for defeating Hamas — destroying its military and political capabilities to the point where the terrorist group can never again launch major attacks against Israeli civilians — is unlikely to work, writes Robert A. Pape.

apple.news

He's right to say a political not military solution is only one which will resolve the conflict.

What he does not say is that US / EU - the "west" have to also change tack.

From supporting Israel to using threat of sanctions/ removal of military aid if Israel for example continues settlement building in the West Bank.

Israel has never accepted in practice moves for Palestinians to have own state.

If the international community are genuine about two state solution more is needed that just trying to drive wedge between Palestinians and Hamas

One reason Hamas are popular on West Bank is that unlike the impotent PA they are taking on Israel. Settler violence and settlement building in West Bank are effectively not being opposed by Fatah / PA.

Also the article does not mention that Hamas took part in elections. The Palestinian people voted and Israel/ international community didn't like the result.

So several things are needed as a minimum

Real pressure on Israel to stop settlement building on West Bank

Respect for will of Palestinian people when they vote

 

[nino_savatte]

I did actually look at what Fathom were saying yesterday. Basically Israel is running a counter terror operation and everything they do is absolutely necessary. But that's the small print . They're really doing their best to ignore everything that happened either before or after 7th October. It's not easy being a liberal zionist.

Of course, they are. Admitting to the ugly realities of the occupation would completely undermine their claims to be "fighting terror". For them, everything happens in a vacuum, and is disconnected from history and discourse... or so they would have us believe.

 

[Boris Sprinkler]

And what is your view?

That it is a declaration of war from not Hamas.

 

[Pickman's model]

That it is a declaration of war from not Hamas.

I don't know why you didn't share that with us earlier, it shouldn't be like drawing teeth getting an opinion on urban

 

[mojo pixy]

Earlier than that, in fact. It was first used to describe the Reign of Terror in France. That's the state's reign, not individuals (or non-state groups).

For non-state forces, the Irish Rebellion of 1798 seems to be the first occasion.

belboid have you a quote or reference for that?

As you allude to first though, here's Thomas Jefferson in a letter dated 23/6/1795:

And upon the latter occasion, when the party got possession of the Convention and began for a while to rule, and were about to reestablish terrorism and not royalty, the royalists shifted their ground in a moment and became very vociferous against popular commotions, and equally pathetic in support of the Convention and of the law, which a few hours before they disdained and endeavoured to subvert.

 

[tim]

This is a grotesque comment.

The SNP, Alba, Sinn Fein Plaid Cymru and the radicalised remnant of the Wessex Regionalist Party also want to destroy the British state, are they grotesque too?

 

[Bingoman]

Another Ambassador recalled

Jordan recalls its ambassador to Israel in protest of war in Gaza

* * *

www.timesofisrael.com

 

[Eric Jarvis]

Portugal did not de-colonise until 1975.

Well yes, but they also weren't as violent as France when it came to dealing with pro-independence movements.

 

[tim]

.

Zionism never has wanted to live side by side with Palestinians. Period.

Zionism isn't a living thing it's nebulous nationalist ideology whose proponents have never had a united cohesive view of coexistence with Palestinians or of much else.


Anyway Israel is the state responsible for the murderous assault on the Gaza, so why didn't you say Israelis have never wanted ...". I don't think it would be a more accurate statement but it would seem more logical.

 

[tim]

Well yes, but they also weren't as violent as France when it came to dealing with pro-independence movements.

Weren't they? I don't imagine that Mozambicans and Angolans would agree with you.

The unsustainable costs of the colonial wars both financial and personal led to the Portuguese Revolution in mid-seventies.

 

[Ax^]

I’d suggest if you think that you’d need to pay closer attention to the propoganda you’re subject too. Hamas have killed Jews in a brutal attack on civilians, their leaders talk openly about wiping them off the face of the earth.

If that’s not terrorism I’m not sure there’s a reasonable definition that can be agreed to.

looks at the rhetoric from the Bibi side and tell me who acting like a state trying to remove parts of it population

 

[The39thStep]

Well yes, but they also weren't as violent as France when it came to dealing with pro-independence movements.

They did quite well though with some terrible massacres . Approximate figures for the colonial wars in , Angola , Mozambique and what was then Portuguese-Guinea

Civilians 1960 -1974
50-70,000 civilians killed in Mozambique
50,000 civilians killed in Angola
5,000 civilians killed in Portuguese Guinea

Pro-Independence forces killed
MPLA and UNITA (Angola) losses 6-8000
FRELIMO ( Mozambique) 10.000+
PAIGC ( Portuguese -Guinea) 6,000

Portugal also used napalm and defoliants in Mozambique on villages believed to be held by FRELIMO

 

[Johnny Vodka]

looks at the rhetoric from the Bibi side and tell me who acting like a state trying to remove parts of it population

Yup, and, as mentioned many times previously, consider Israel's behaviour towards Palestinians in the west bank. What exactly have they done to justify the continuing stealing and annexation of their land, not to mention the murdering? Takes away pretty much any of Israel's pretence to be the good guy (IMO).

 

[PTK]

Well yes, but they also weren't as violent as France when it came to dealing with pro-independence movements.

The Republic of Portugal waged three wars against independence movements for about ten years in Mozambique, Angola, and Guinea Bissau, on which it spent about half its annual GDP, which led to the Revolution in that overthrew the fascistic regime in Portugal in 1974, and it was the new regime that granted independence.

You are too young to remember these events.

 

[twistedAM]

The Republic of Portugal waged three wars against independence movements for about ten years in Mozambique, Angola, and Guinea Bissau, on which it spent about half its annual GDP, which led to the Revolution in that overthrew the fascistic regime in Portugal in 1974, and it was the new regime that granted independence.

You are too young to remember these events.

Yes and if they had been a rich country - it was still pretty much a rural economy in the 60s and 70s - they would have killed a lot more. Absolutely disgusting regime and when it came to bailing out in 1975 they took everything that could be transported back to Portugal with them - hospital fittings, school desks etc etc, a tactic the French used in Guinea.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Opinion: There’s a smarter way to eliminate Hamas — CNN

Israel’s strategy for defeating Hamas — destroying its military and political capabilities to the point where the terrorist group can never again launch major attacks against Israeli civilians — is unlikely to work, writes Robert A. Pape.

apple.news

He makes good points, but the entire article is based on a false premise, namely that Israel's goal here is to defeat Hamas. Far from seeking to separate Hamas from the population, they are very keen to blur the lines and have 'Hamas' and 'Palestinian' become synonymous. Hence the president's comments - a supposedly moderate Labour person, remember.

And why would they seek to fully integrate Hamas with the population in Gaza? Well that's simple. They want to evict the entire population - to Egypt, or somewhere, they don't care.

I think sometimes commentators like the above just can't bring themselves to admit how awful the Israeli government, its aims and its methods truly are.

 

[Cloo]

Yes, some leaders might be sincere about defeating a force like Hamas, but Netanyahu is a demagogue like Putin or Trump. Foremost he wants a dehumanised enemy that Only He Can Stand Against.

 

[teqniq]

Really good in-depth article explaining the situation regarding Egypt and the prospect of Palestinian refugees and the dilemma facing the regime:

The Questions for Egypt • Protean Magazine

In the present crisis, the question of allowing refugees into Egypt is most often framed as one of humanitarian concerns, obscuring the actual goal of this “solution” to the crisis: ethnic cleansing, writes Nihal El Aasar.

proteanmag.com