Hamas/Israel conflict: news and discussion
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Johnny Vodka
The Abominable Scotsman
Interesting post. I have a rough idea of what I think Zionism means and what I think Zionists want and what that means in practice and how it affects things already playing out... Maybe my assumptions and ideas are wrong. (But it's a bit close to bedtime to go into them tonight.)
Gramsci
Well-Known Member
Have you read Ilan Pappe?
Jewish and born in Israel.
His well known works are Ten Myths of Israel ( the myths he was taught) and his classic work The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine.
He got so much stick like a lot of Anti Zionist Jewish Israelis left the country. His academic career ended in Israel. Now works a Professor here.
Plus Matzpen - early critique of Zionism by those who grew up there.
Pappe favours a One State Solution.
Yes now many Jews are born and grew up in Israel. Not settlers. It is the only home they now.
So Pappe and some other Palestinians and Israeli Jews argue for a State where Jews and Palestinians could live side by side as equals. Acknowledgement of the crimes of Zionism/ dealing with the history and right to return.
Similar to this country dealing with its Imperial past. Which is ever an issue- Winddrush scandal for example. And the perpetual arguments about immigration and multiculturalism
This would not be a Zionist state. Zionism is based on national state for one group only.
I do think Israel is seen sometimes differently by Israelis than it is by Jews outside Israel
Israel likes to pride itself on being a western style democracy. It can be one and like this country grapple and move forward to be a national state for all. Not just one dominant group.
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PTK
Paul Kegan
I decided a few years ago that the use of the term "Zionist" was unhelpful, for as you point out, it has many meanings. On one definition, everyone who supports a two-state solution is a Zionist, and that includes Jeremy Corbyn.
Gramsci
Well-Known Member
Yes saw this.
Getting most of my coverage from Novara media and Al Jazeera.
Novara Media say the number of people following them on You tube has jumped up since the start of the present violence.
They imo have been doing a good job.
Including Owen Jones.
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ska invita
back on the other side
i think the difference is that Zionism in its broadest terms to me means the desire for a Jewish state for Jews only...not a multi-cultural, multi-ethnic, multi-religious state within which Jews can consider it a homeland, but a Jewish sate.
You said "Which to me seems a moot point because there is a Jewish state? I mean, guys, we have one."
- except Israel is not just a Jewish state, it contains enclaves with over 2 million people who are thought of as a different ethnicity and a different religion and are therefore not considered equal citizens within the state...to put it mildly...Zionism means these non-Jews can never belong within a Zionist conception of a Jewish state
Cloo
Banana for scale
I suppose Zionism in the classic sense is a product of its time - I don't think anyone believes now you can have a state just for one group of people at the exclusion of all others. It's neither morally right, nor practicable. I guess it happened due to that uniquely horrible situation created by the Holocaust whereby when the camps were liberated they were left with millions of people who either had literally no home or community left to return to or, totally understandably, did not want to return to where their gentile neighbours basically waved them off to their deaths. I had never really understood the scale of it until I read William I Hitchcock's 'Liberation' - a brilliant book about the horrendously messy end of WWII that I'm not sure is still in print.
It begs the question if there's an end to this, what does that mean for the Palestinian survivors? How can they find a way to live alongside the people who did this when they of course don't want to leave their homeland, no matter how ruined?
It begs the question if there's an end to this, what does that mean for the Palestinian survivors? How can they find a way to live alongside the people who did this when they of course don't want to leave their homeland, no matter how ruined?
Eric Jarvis
Well-Known Member
There have been so many different versions of Zionism since it first emerged as an idea that I suspect there are nearly as many definitions of it as there are Zionists. I generally try to restrict my use of the word to either refer to people who overtly profess to be Zionist, or as a term used as a sort of antonym to Bundist. By and large it is a word best avoided unless specified and defined until every has got bored of reading or listening by the time you get around to the word itself.
ska invita
back on the other side
I think I understand your point to draw a distinction between a classic sense of Zionism based on a range of older circumstances on the one hand, and the present. The thing is when you say ....
...that is exactly what many Israeli religious extremists do believe - and it is they who I think get called Zionists by anti-Zionists - and exactly what they are trying to create right now, whether via this current destruction of the Gaza strip, or through state-backed settler violence, or all the other state degradations enacted on the arab population
I agree with you its not morally right, but it might yet be practicable - over time it is clearly succeeding, and this wave of ethnic cleansing we are seeing now is another big lurch forward in the process
Ive started reading the Moshe Machovaer link posted up helpfully by another poster
The Other Israel (1972): The Radical Case Against Zionism - Matzpen.org/English
In the spring and summer of 1970, Arie Bober (died 2003), then member of Matzpen, made a speaking tour of the US, sponsored by the Committee on New Alternatives in the Middle East (CONAME). Among the sponsors of CONAME […]matzpen.org
Also found this online version on Matzpen influential book
The Other Israel (1972): The Radical Case Against Zionism - Matzpen.org/English
In the spring and summer of 1970, Arie Bober (died 2003), then member of Matzpen, made a speaking tour of the US, sponsored by the Committee on New Alternatives in the Middle East (CONAME). Among the sponsors of CONAME […]
If you're interested in Matzpen you might want to look at Akiva Orr as well:
Aki Orr
Gramsci
Well-Known Member
Looking back at Rashid Khalidi The Hundred Years War on Palestine and he quotes Herzl in 1895 saying of the Palestinians:
We shall try to spirit the penniless population across the border by procuring it employment in the transit countries, whilst denying it employment in our own country...Both the expropriation and removal of the poor must be carried out discreetly and circumspectly
Page 3
For Palestinians Zionism was wholey negative. Nothing in his book says anything good about Zionism. From a Palestinian point of view Zionism and foundation of Israel meant and means expropriation and exile.
From its origins this was a settler colonial state. The indigenous people to be removed. Zionist pioneers like Herzl are clear on that.
Though it took Ben Gurion and the Haganah to put it into brutal practise.
On Jews leaving Europe. For decades the favourite destination was not Palestine but USA. The advanced country of opportunities.
The Holocaust did not feature that much in early days. One Israeli historian I read said when he was growing up the visit to Auschwitz was not done. It was later that that came to be a thing to do. Early Zionists wanted to emphasize a muscular new people going out and building a new country. Not being as they saw it victims. So Israel relationship with Holocaust has changed over time.
We shall try to spirit the penniless population across the border by procuring it employment in the transit countries, whilst denying it employment in our own country...Both the expropriation and removal of the poor must be carried out discreetly and circumspectly
Page 3
For Palestinians Zionism was wholey negative. Nothing in his book says anything good about Zionism. From a Palestinian point of view Zionism and foundation of Israel meant and means expropriation and exile.
From its origins this was a settler colonial state. The indigenous people to be removed. Zionist pioneers like Herzl are clear on that.
Though it took Ben Gurion and the Haganah to put it into brutal practise.
On Jews leaving Europe. For decades the favourite destination was not Palestine but USA. The advanced country of opportunities.
The Holocaust did not feature that much in early days. One Israeli historian I read said when he was growing up the visit to Auschwitz was not done. It was later that that came to be a thing to do. Early Zionists wanted to emphasize a muscular new people going out and building a new country. Not being as they saw it victims. So Israel relationship with Holocaust has changed over time.
I agree about Max Blumenthal but the video is from 2011 before he really went off the rails. It's all Aki Orr talking in any case.
Gramsci
Well-Known Member
I see. Actually started to watch this.
You were right and I was wrong. They killed all those civilians in the refugee camp trying to kill ONE hamas commander.
And had their IDF spokesperson with a straight face says that is all hunky dory.
The IDF guy had Scottish accent. Curious I googled him and he is Scottish.
Scotsman is the international voice of the Israeli military
A SCOTSMAN who is the Israeli army’s voice for speaking to the world has been thrust into the spotlight by the war in Gaza.
What can I say? Emigrated their 40 years ago. From Scotland to being an apologist for war crimes. Well done.
Just to add I can understand Jews going to Palestine at end of WW2 considering the Holocaust.
To add
Ive contempt for people like this IDF guy. Emigrating from a multicultural country like this to end up as spokesperson for IDF.
Im getting more angry again the more I see of what is being done to Palestinians and the imo racist way they are treated by people like this in Israel ( not saying all Israelis are like this)
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tim
EXPLODED TIM! (Help me!!!)
Violent expulsion and killing of Palestinians and land seizures is an objective an of many irredentists on the Israeli right. However, that doesn't represent all Israelis anymore than the irredentism of the Palestinian right which calls for the destruction of Israel and the killing and expulsion of Jews represents all Palestinians.
An ethnically/confessionally cleansed state "from the River to the State" is an unreliable fantasy shared amongst others by Hamas and settlers in the West Bank, but an awful lot of Palestinians and Israelis want to live peaceful and productive coexistent lives.
jeff_leigh
What happened to Dubversion ?
Is that your best Charlie Kirk impression ?
Gramsci
Well-Known Member
In actual fact Hamas changed their position on Jews in a future Palestine. Jews had a long history of co existence with Islam in the days of the Ottoman empire. Stretching back to Spanish Jews going their when expelled from Spain.
So in ( at least some) parts of Hamas the problem was Zionists not Jews. Jews as a people could have a place in a future Palestine. Like Jews in the past when it was part of an Islamic Empire
Same goes with Christians. Hamas have good relations with Palestinian Christians.
On Zionism - As Ive pointed out removal of Palestinians was part and parcel of Zionism from the early days.
There has been enough info on the pages of this thread. Palestinians have lost land post 48. If more gradually. Its been an ongoing process whatever Israeli government is in power.
Simple example. If your Jewish , from whatever part of the world, you can emigrate to Israel. If your a Palestinian you cant. EVen the hypothetical case of a rich Palestinian who wants to buy his grandfathers stolen land back cannot do it. This is how Israel state is and always has been structured in a racist way
You try to make it out that Israel is now some kind of liberal state now. But evidence of how it actually works suggests otherwise. Racism is deeply ingrained into how the Israel state works and treats Palestinians
spring-peeper
Well-Known Member
Saw this on trump ridicule thread posted by Ax^
WhyLikeThis
Something, something, something
She literally tortured muslim men at CIA black sites. Not the most objective voices out there.
WhyLikeThis
Something, something, something
WhyLikeThis
Something, something, something
A view into the tunnels in Gaza and a display of manpads.
Kid_Eternity
Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
Origin Story did a look at Zionism a little while ago:
tim
EXPLODED TIM! (Help me!!!)
I've never been stupid enough to claim that Israel was "some kind of liberal state". However, the murderous brutality of the 7 October attacks would also seen to challenge the idea of the "changed Hamas" that you go on about. Slaughtering small children in cold blood, whether or not they where beheaded does not convince me of their willingness to tolerate the presence of Jews in any future Great Palestine; not that any such entity could come into existence on their terms.
If there is to be a lasting political solution Hamas like Likud will need to be involved, but that doesn't make either progressive forces for good.
Kid_Eternity
Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
Hamas actions and rhetoric are well aligned and clear: they want to wipe Israel off the map.
Their aim is clearly genocide (the technical meaning not the generic one people throw about).
And agreed any peace process will include them and Likud etc. I just can’t see how those two parties are even brought to the table at this point. Hamas’ actions and Israel’s war crime laden response mean there’s no reasonable pathway here…
Rob Ray
Weight is meaningless
The dear wish of some of them will be genocide, we have no idea how many or how prevalent that might be. Their aim certainly isn't genocide, because they aren't completely delusional about their capabilities.
Gramsci
Well-Known Member
So you agree at this time its a state that practises Apartheid.
Also its been allowing building of illegal settlements on West Bank.
That the Oslo peace process has never led to Palestinians having a separate state. This is something most Palestinians complain.
In particular the illegal settlements on West Bank/ armed settlers pushing Palestinians off their land is a particular problem as its being increasingly making a viable two state solution.
That support in countries like this should allow BDS.
This is what underlays the recent violence
To start a ceasefire needs to happen now.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
There are none so blind as those that will not see
Gramsci
Well-Known Member
You know this isnt nor ever has been a conflict where both sides are on equal terms. Whatever the rhetoric over last 75 years its been Israel that have had the military capability and international support to increase control over Palestine at expense of Palestinianians.
Realistically there is not existential threat to Israel. This is asymmetrical warfare.
tim
EXPLODED TIM! (Help me!!!)
It's a state that encourages the building and expansion of illegal settlements and land theft. I think BDS us a useful tool to put pressure on the regime
If Israel is an Apartheid state than so is: China because of its treatment of Uyghurs and Tibetans; Iran because of treatment of Kurds and and other minorities including Arabs who like Palestinians are killed driven from their land and replaced by Persian settlers; Pakistan because at its creation in 1948 millions of Hindus and Sikhs were murdered of driven into exile abd where religious minorities are officially second class citizens who are denied civil rights and face murderous persecution; ; Myanmar because of their murder and expulsion of the Rohinigha and their oppression of the Karen people; Sri Lanka because of the oppression and slaughter of Tamils; and Saudi Arabia and Bahrain because of of their murderous oppression of Shi'a.
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