Hamas/Israel conflict: news and discussion

[ska invita]

THis is interesting:

"Politico is reporting that Joe Biden and his top aides believe that Benjamin Netanyahu’s grip on political power is weakening, and that this sentiment has been relayed to Israel’s prime minister in a recent conversation between the two leaders. The report cites two senior administration officials as well as a current and former US official. All of them reportedly said that the administration believes that Netanyahu’s time in office is limited."

another thing in Politico I saw this morning was this
"One of the big questions looming over the Israel-Hamas war is who would run Gaza if the militant group is uprooted. We now have a possible answer: The U.S. and its allies may establish a multinational force to keep peace in the enclave — one that likely wouldn’t include American troops.

Sens. CHRIS VAN HOLLEN (D-Md.) and RICHARD BLUMENTHAL (D-Conn.) confirmed such talks were underway to Alex, JOE GOULD and NAHAL TOOSI this morning. “There are ongoing conversations regarding the possible composition of an international force,” Van Hollen said, refusing to go into specific detail. “They are very preliminary and fragile. “I do think it’d be important to have some kind of multinational force in Gaza as a transition to whatever comes next,” he continued.

===
All of which sounds like massive wishful thinking to me...Netanyahu isnt going anywhere unless he is dragged away, and the timeframe to stop even worse carnage taking place in Gaza is short. That said just maybe its dawning on some in the US just what it is they are backing.

 

[PTK]

Jess Phillips, scourge of Jeremy Corbyn, made a heartfelt plea for a ceasefire on the World At One on Radio 4. On this issue, Phillips is closer to Corbyn than Starmer. It shows how right-wing and heartless Starmer is.

 

[Rob Ray]

I could easily see Netanyahu being ousted the minute the concept of crisis unity stops dominating Israel's political zeitgeist, the dangerous bit for both Palestinians and Israeli democracy is that he no doubt knows this as well and is intending to put off that moment for as long as possible.

 

[Protag]

The Bernie on a 'humanitarian pause':-

Gaza needs a humanitarian pause. Then we need a vision of where we go from here | Bernie Sanders

I think the problem is more fundamental than people like Nutteryahoo. The probability that the US duopoly will do anything is practically zero.

 

[Eric Jarvis]

Speaking of Qatar, Douglas Murray in the Spectator reckons now is the point at which Britain should divest from it. Not last year, when Britain made £3.4bn in arms sales to Qatar and it hosted the 2022 World Cup in which its appalling human rights record was highlighted (he was critical but liked it happening on the grounds it highlighted said record). Or indeed, presumably, earlier this year when he flew to Qatar to participate in a pompous public debate.

Qatar's human rights record is way better than Saudi Arabia's or Egypt's, by and large it is a little better than the vast majority of regimes in the Middle East. The difference with Qatar is that it isn't seen as a "reliable Western ally" therefore it can be attacked by Western media. OK least appalling human rights record in the Middle East is not exactly a high bar. However people are still being executed in Egypt for being gay, teenage migrant workers from East Africa have been raped and murdered by their employers in Saudi Arabia in recent years, but that's OK because Sisi and MBS are "reliable Western allies". Over all human rights in Qatar have improved since the end of British rule, so there's a level of blindness to eurocentric neo-colonialist attitudes in much of the criticism. Either we divest from everywhere with an awful record on human rights, or from only places with the very worst human rights records, otherwise it looks really bad.

 

[Eric Jarvis]

I could easily see Netanyahu being ousted the minute the concept of crisis unity stops dominating Israel's political zeitgeist, the dangerous bit for both Palestinians and Israeli democracy is that he no doubt knows this as well and is intending to put off that moment for as long as possible.

The other danger is that awful as he is, there are even worse high profile politicians in Israel. At best Ganz would only be a very marginal improvement and there are worse possibilities than that.

 

[PTK]

If Starmer called for a ceasefire, it would put pressure on Sunak to call for a ceasefire.

The UK is an important ally of the State of Israel, and UK pressure for a ceasefire may have some effect.

Frontbench MPs, the Leader of the Labour Party in Scotland, the Labour Mayors of London and Greater Manchester, and Labour groups on at least twenty councils have issued statements calling for an immediate ceasefire.

The more council Labour groups that call for a ceasefire, the more pressure there is on Starmer, and the more likely he is to call for a ceasefire.

I suggest that we all write to our local newspapers calling for our local Labour councillors to issue a call for a ceasefire.

 

[Eric Jarvis]

If Starmer called for a ceasefire, it would put pressure on Sunak to call for a ceasefire.

The UK is an important ally of the State of Israel, and UK pressure for a ceasefire may have some effect.

Frontbench MPs, the Leader of the Labour Party in Scotland, the Labour Mayors of London and Greater Manchester, and Labour groups on at least twenty councils have issued statements calling for an immediate ceasefire.

The more council Labour groups that call for a ceasefire, the more pressure there is on Starmer, and the more likely he is to call for a ceasefire.

I suggest that we all write to our local newspapers calling for our local Labour councillors to issue a call for a ceasefire.

Write directly to the councillors and MP as well. Say they will permanently lose your vote if they don't.

 

[twistedAM]

Qatar's human rights record is way better than Saudi Arabia's or Egypt's, by and large it is a little better than the vast majority of regimes in the Middle East. The difference with Qatar is that it isn't seen as a "reliable Western ally" therefore it can be attacked by Western media. OK least appalling human rights record in the Middle East is not exactly a high bar. However people are still being executed in Egypt for being gay, teenage migrant workers from East Africa have been raped and murdered by their employers in Saudi Arabia in recent years, but that's OK because Sisi and MBS are "reliable Western allies". Over all human rights in Qatar have improved since the end of British rule, so there's a level of blindness to eurocentric neo-colonialist attitudes in much of the criticism. Either we divest from everywhere with an awful record on human rights, or from only places with the very worst human rights records, otherwise it looks really bad.

Very interesting. Got any examples? I like this potential exposure of (yet more) global north hypocrisy.

 

[MickiQ]

I could easily see Netanyahu being ousted the minute the concept of crisis unity stops dominating Israel's political zeitgeist, the dangerous bit for both Palestinians and Israeli democracy is that he no doubt knows this as well and is intending to put off that moment for as long as possible.

There was an interview with a retired IDF general last night. On October 7 he drove down to where it was all happening to look for his son and grandkids. Got there, picked up a gun from a dead IDF soldier and shot dead a couple of Hamas unfortunate enough to cross his path, came across as very gung-ho but even he was blaming it all on Netanyahu not paying any attention to what he was being told.
Bonkers Ben's political career is no doubt over when the killing is over (or at least slacks off back to normal) which is on the face of it a good thing but he may be thinking "If I'm going, I'm going out with a bang"

 

[Chz]

The UK is an important ally of the State of Israel, and UK pressure for a ceasefire may have some effect.

LOL. Just LOL. Biden told them to tread carefully and they responded by rolling tanks in. Do you honestly think they give a fuck what Rishi Sunak has to say to them? Israel already thinks the UK is controlled by muslim interests (note how hostile they are to UK newsies in particular), that would just confirm it for them.

 

[PTK]

LOL. Just LOL. Biden told them to tread carefully and they responded by rolling tanks in. Do you honestly think they give a fuck what Rishi Sunak has to say to them? Israel already thinks the UK is controlled by muslim interests (note how hostile they are to UK newsies in particular), that would just confirm it for them.

The UK supplies arms to the State of Israel, and has signed an agreement on military co-operation with that state. It is the second most important ally.
Biden could actually order a stop; he merely has to threaten to cut off military and economic aid. He did not order a stop. He endorses what is happening.

 

[Protag]

If Starmer called for a ceasefire, it would put pressure on Sunak to call for a ceasefire.

The UK is an important ally of the State of Israel, and UK pressure for a ceasefire may have some effect.

Frontbench MPs, the Leader of the Labour Party in Scotland, the Labour Mayors of London and Greater Manchester, and Labour groups on at least twenty councils have issued statements calling for an immediate ceasefire.

The more council Labour groups that call for a ceasefire, the more pressure there is on Starmer, and the more likely he is to call for a ceasefire.

I suggest that we all write to our local newspapers calling for our local Labour councillors to issue a call for a ceasefire.

The Americans wouldn't care what little Britain would say - even worse, it would cause a 'diplomatic incident' for little Britain, to put it mildly.

 

[Chz]

The UK supplies arms to the State of Israel, and has signed an agreement on military co-operation with that state. It is the second most important ally.
Biden could actually order a stop; he merely has to threaten to cut off military and economic aid. He did not order a stop. He endorses what is happening.

You're absolutely correct about Biden, but the UK's military contribution is absolutely puny compared to what they get from the US - Sunak has no pull at all, realistically.

 

[PTK]

The Americans wouldn't care what little Britain would say - even worse, it would cause a 'diplomatic incident' for little Britain, to put it mildly.

The State of Israel would be upset indeed if the UK stopped supplying it with weapons, ceased all military co-operation, closed down the British branches of the Israeli arms company Elbit, and sponsored a ceasefire resolution at the UN Security Council.

 

[Idris2002]

Yep. I reserve the term apartheid specifically for a situation in which there is a racist legal framework in place. Segretationist USA qualified. South Africa of course qualified. Israel qualifies.

The Rhodesians kept the vast majority of the African population off the electoral roll by using a complicated mix of property and other qualifications. Unlike the SA apartheid regime, this wasn't explicitly racist - but the result most definitely was.

 

[twistedAM]

You're absolutely correct about Biden, but the UK's military contribution is absolutely puny compared to what they get from the US - Sunak has no pull at all, realistically.

but the US has no stockpile of weapons - they had to dust off some old cluster bombs to send to Zelensky.

 

[Rob Ray]

but the US has no stockpile of weapons - they had to dust off some old cluster bombs to send to Zelensky.

It has lots of stockpiled weapons, but as policy retains enough for considerably more than its own needs and only tends to give/sell old stock to allies.

 

[PTK]

but the US has no stockpile of weapons - they had to dust off some old cluster bombs to send to Zelensky.

The USA actually has a large stockpile of weapons in Israel.

 

[Chz]

but the US has no stockpile of weapons - they had to dust off some old cluster bombs to send to Zelensky.

They will give much shinier things to the Israelis than they would let Ukraine get ahold of. Not that they need the latest high-tech gizmos to use on the Gazans.
Crucially, the IDF needs air-dropped things most of all, which is exactly what Ukraine can't really make much use of.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

The Rhodesians kept the vast majority of the African population off the electoral roll by using a complicated mix of property and other qualifications. Unlike the SA apartheid regime, this wasn't explicitly racist - but the result most definitely was.

Yes true, and their exclusion of Africans from sport wasn't formalised in the same way as SA either. They did have explicitly racist laws, though, laws designed to create apartness, such as the Land Apportionment Act of 1930, passed when it was still a Crown Colony.

 

[Whagwan]

Bleak, I think it was the shooting of Muhammad Al-Durrah in 2000 (when I was 17) that made me aware to another level of the Israel Palestine conflict.



23 years ago:

 

[Rob Ray]

Ways to definitely make sure your opponent has nothing to lose .

 

[PTK]

Bleak, I think it was the shooting of Muhammad Al-Durrah in 2000 (when I was 17) that made me aware to another level of the Israel Palestine conflict.

View attachment 398230

23 years ago:

View attachment 398232

This is tragic. I remember that well.

In the English language, a martyr is someone who dies for a cause. That poor boy did not die for a cause. He was not fighting for, or defending a religion or an ideology. He was just an innocent boy, who was murdered by the Israeli armed forces.

 

[Whagwan]

Ways to definitely make sure your opponent has nothing to lose .

Indeed, I'm not sure of the veracity of the claim but I'm sure I saw it reported somewhere that 85% of Hamas fighters are orphans...

 

[Kid_Eternity]

THis is interesting:

"Politico is reporting that Joe Biden and his top aides believe that Benjamin Netanyahu’s grip on political power is weakening, and that this sentiment has been relayed to Israel’s prime minister in a recent conversation between the two leaders. The report cites two senior administration officials as well as a current and former US official. All of them reportedly said that the administration believes that Netanyahu’s time in office is limited."

another thing in Politico I saw this morning was this
"One of the big questions looming over the Israel-Hamas war is who would run Gaza if the militant group is uprooted. We now have a possible answer: The U.S. and its allies may establish a multinational force to keep peace in the enclave — one that likely wouldn’t include American troops.

Sens. CHRIS VAN HOLLEN (D-Md.) and RICHARD BLUMENTHAL (D-Conn.) confirmed such talks were underway to Alex, JOE GOULD and NAHAL TOOSI this morning. “There are ongoing conversations regarding the possible composition of an international force,” Van Hollen said, refusing to go into specific detail. “They are very preliminary and fragile. “I do think it’d be important to have some kind of multinational force in Gaza as a transition to whatever comes next,” he continued.

===
All of which sounds like massive wishful thinking to me...Netanyahu isnt going anywhere unless he is dragged away, and the timeframe to stop even worse carnage taking place in Gaza is short. That said just maybe its dawning on some in the US just what it is they are backing.

This has been doing the rounds, apparently there’s internal calls for him to step down (citing Chamberlain).

 

[belboid]

This has been doing the rounds, apparently there’s internal calls for him to step down (citing Chamberlain).

Biden or Benji?

 

[Kid_Eternity]

If Starmer called for a ceasefire, it would put pressure on Sunak to call for a ceasefire.

The UK is an important ally of the State of Israel, and UK pressure for a ceasefire may have some effect.

Frontbench MPs, the Leader of the Labour Party in Scotland, the Labour Mayors of London and Greater Manchester, and Labour groups on at least twenty councils have issued statements calling for an immediate ceasefire.

The more council Labour groups that call for a ceasefire, the more pressure there is on Starmer, and the more likely he is to call for a ceasefire.

I suggest that we all write to our local newspapers calling for our local Labour councillors to issue a call for a ceasefire.

If people the leader of the opposition can’t do anything pressure wise they need to go back and read up on how Ed Miliband helped stop intervening in Syria…

 

[Kid_Eternity]

Biden or Benji?

BN. It’s being actively discussed in certain circles (including in Israel).

 

[Kid_Eternity]

The UK supplies arms to the State of Israel, and has signed an agreement on military co-operation with that state. It is the second most important ally.
Biden could actually order a stop; he merely has to threaten to cut off military and economic aid. He did not order a stop. He endorses what is happening.

It’d play out a little differently if this was his second term. I suspect a lot of what’s happening now is prep for what happens after the current phase of the conflict but also with an eye on a big push to
establish a new process to a negotiated settlement which the US will swing heavily behind post November 2024.