Hamas/Israel conflict: news and discussion

[WhyLikeThis]

Bit harsh. Im not a Trot but the Trots did a lot over organizing anti Iraq war demos etc.

They also massively undermined more effective protests. This is not the thread to open that can of worms mind.

 

[planetgeli]

No longer SWP but close enough for the estimate…



Plod say 100,000 x 2 = 200,000

STWC Oberführer says 300k “but closer to half a million” - Let’s call this 400k give or take. Half the Trot estimate and I think the “WhyLikeThis Equation” holds up.

200,000

Duckworth/Lewis says 282,212

One for littlebabyjesus there.

Let's just say massive.

 

[Gramsci]

I'm quoting you again because I don't know if you know this and it's important.

Between ~1997 and ~2001 there was (or seemed to be) a brief period of relative peace and optimism. I was there during this time and I remember how it felt (at least how it felt among a bunch of Tel Avivi liberal ravers and stoners...)

After the assassination of Yitzhak Rabin by an ultra-religious settler it was as if Israel entered a period of soul searching, for a while a sense was expressed more publicly that maybe we could try harder for peace; Ehud Barak tried to form a coalition across the political spectrum but it fell apart, the 2000 Camp David peace talks failed, and the Israeli right pushed hard on both these failures so that Ariel Sharon won 2001's special prime minister election, and Ehud Barak resigned.

Ariel Sharon then ignited the so-called Second Intifada by parading around Al Aqsa mosque in a show of domination, and sticking a huge wall through Jerusalem when the inevitable happened.

Yigal Amir murdered arguably the most progressive, conciliatory leader Israel has ever had. So it seems to me that the two most pivotal events that a generation ago turned possible peace into inevitable war, were carried out by people on the extreme right of Israeli politics.

This is why I can't uncritically stand with Israel. For me it's not even anti zionism, I'm not that and never have been. It's that for the last 22 years Israel has been cruising further and further to the right, and shows no sign of stopping. It's currently a danger to the entire region including itself, and at the moment all the UK is doing is offering to hold its coat.

Madness.

Years back I used to work with an Israeli. Born there. Tel Aviv liberal. What he used to complain about in Israel was the religious lot.
When he was doing national service in Army he had to guard these religious settlers. Used to wind him up. They used to try to ban things. He was Israeli born non religious Tel Aviv jew who liked to party and they pissed him off. Big time. As they were out to spoil his non religious lifestyle. He never complained about Palestinians.

I take it their are big divides in Israeli society?

Be interested in what you think.

There are Israeli human rights groups like Btselem who are very critical of recent governments. Are they very marginal ? Or have a following?

 

[8ball]

Years back I used to work with an Israeli. Born there. Tel Aviv liberal. What he used to complain about in Israel was the religious lot.
When he was doing national service in Army he had to guard these religious settlers. Used to wind him up. They used to try to ban things. He was Israeli born non religious Tel Aviv jew who liked to party and they pissed him off. Big time. As they were out to spoil his non religious lifestyle. He never complained about Palestinians.

I take it their are big divides in Israeli society?

Be interested in what you think.

There are Israeli human rights groups like Btselem who are very critical of recent governments. Are they very marginal ? Or have a following?

I have a mate who is Palestinian. He finds the reflexive anti-semitism of a great many of his friends and family over there to be massively depressing and counter-productive. Despite having had some very traumatic experiences at the hands of the IDF.

There are loads of people who are ignored by the main narratives (from all sides). Gay Palestinians, secularists, people of many stripes from both sides of the divide who want to live in peace, non-religious Zionists (many of whom take a very different tack to the religious ones, esp. with regard to the [illegal] settlements).

There is a heap more diversity in the populations of these regions than is expressed in the propaganda. The purpose of the propaganda is to freeze out those voices.

Like has been said, the populations of the whole area are being played as chess pieces in other peoples geopolitical games.

 

[Ax^]

withstanding that only one state is about to launch a ground Invasion

neither side of the arguement in Israel is without criticism but one side has a clear advantage

which will eventually play out for the world to watch

 

[8ball]

withstanding that only one state is about to launch a ground Invasion

… which is exactly what their armed opponent wants to happen.

 

[Kid_Eternity]

I have a mate who is Palestinian. He finds the reflexive anti-semitism of a great many of his friends and family over there to be massively depressing and counter-productive. Despite having had some very traumatic experiences at the hands of the IDF.

There are loads of people who are ignored by the main narratives (from all sides). Gay Palestinians, secularists, people of many stripes from both sides of the divide who want to live in peace, non-religious Zionists (many of whom take a very different tack to the religious ones, esp. with regard to the [illegal] settlements).

There is a heap more diversity in the populations of these regions than is expressed in the propaganda. The purpose of the propaganda is to freeze out those voices.

Like has been said, the populations of the whole area are being played as chess pieces in other peoples geopolitical games.

This is exactly my experience of Arab and Jewish friends (with family in the region and country). I find it generally frustrating when the propaganda binary narrative is played out here…

 

[two sheds]

… which is exactly what their armed opponent wants to happen.

I'm not sure the bulk of Palestinians do, though.

 

[Gramsci]

Anyone got any idea why Israel rejected the hostage release?

Israel calls Hamas' claim it rejected hostage release 'propaganda'

Israel on Saturday described as "propaganda" a claim by Hamas that the militant group had wanted to release two more hostages on humanitarian grounds but that Israel declined to receive them.

www.reuters.com

This has been standard Israeli government practice with Hamas over the years.

Back in 2006 when Hamas unexpectedly won elections Hamas offered Isreal a "hudna" agreement. This is Islamic form of ceasefire. At that time Hamas military wing was using suicide bombers to retaliate when Israel killed Palestinians.

A hudna is not an end to hostilities. Its a break in the military action on both sides for a period of time. Hamas was offering 10 years.

Israel rejected it or any talks on it out of hand.

A hudna was put forward as Hamas did not want to be seen to make the mistake of PLO. Who accepted the Oslo accords. An end to military action which gained the Palestinian people little.

The reason Hamas did so well at 2006 elections was ordinary Palestinians disappointment with the so called peace process. No sign of a genuine two state solution/ the corruption of PLO leading officials and Hamas long standing charity work amongst the poor.

Hamas did not foresee they would win elections. They were hoping to get people elected but not to rule. Idea was that taking part in elections they could have a block of people elected who could pressure the PLO/ Fatah to take a hard er line with Israelis. As the so called peace process was gaining ordinary Palestinians little in return.

A range of people voted Hamas. Not for the religious side of it. But because they were not corrupt/ helped the poor and resisted Israeli occupation. Hamas in 2006 gave a Christian Palestinian a post in its new government in Gaza

 

[8ball]

I'm not sure the bulk of Palestinians do, though.

No, you’re totally right. Hamas want to use every death as leverage for their aims, and none of those are in the interest of ordinary Palestinians having a decent life.

 

[Ax^]

… which is exactly what their armed opponent wants to happen.

the armed opponent only has urban warfare to fall back upon..

not support from the United States who along with the IDF are covering all supply lines

giving wannabe martyrs a civilian population to take with them is a military failure

 

[two sheds]

No, you’re totally right. Hamas want to use every death as leverage for their aims, and none of those are in the interest of ordinary Palestinians having a decent life.

indeed, and Israeli government acting the same.

 

[8ball]

the armed opponent only has urban warfare to fall back upon..

not support from the United States who along with the IDF are covering all supply lines

Well, yes, they’re playing to their strengths. The trap has been laid and the IDF don’t seem to know how to do anything other than walk right into it.

 

[Gramsci]

Point Im trying to make here is that despite their Islamic Brotherhood background and Islamic based origins they have been pragmatic.

To get support they in public at least have had to push themselves as resisting occupation. They are nationalist first Islamic second.

 

[WhyLikeThis]

These Obsessed British Lefties must be benefit cheats to get around the world like this.

 

[Kevbad the Bad]

It seems some people on here know the inner workings of the minds of the Hamas leadership. Well done. Why didn't you warn the kibbutzim beforehand? Or maybe, just maybe, your perceptions of what Hamas want is just a cliché, easy to fall back on, impossible to prove or rebut. It's more than possible that Hamas weren't expecting to meet so little resistance at first, that it took them by surprise, that they now don't know what to do other than make an attempt at resistance. I don't know, but even fanatics like Hamas are movements of contradiction and faction. Not one dimensional.

 

[8ball]

Point Im trying to make here is that despite their Islamic Brotherhood background and Islamic based origins they have been pragmatic.

To get support they in public at least have had to push themselves as resisting occupation. They are nationalist first Islamic second.

I guess sacrificing the lives of others around them is consistent with pragmatism.

The psychopathic slaughter and rape being more a matter of shits and giggles.

 

[Ax^]

Cet animal est très mechant,
Quand on l'attaque il se defend


this conflict did not start 2 weeks ago

 

[8ball]

Cet animal est très méchant,
Quand on l'attaque il se défend

il se jette du haut des immeubles parce qu'il est gay. quelle énigme

 

[Ax^]

the conflict did not start 2 weeks ago

how strange

 

[Gramsci]

I guess sacrificing the lives of others around them is consistent with pragmatism.

The psychopathic slaughter and rape being more a matter of shits and giggles.

Thing about conflicts like this is either one can read up the history and analysis or one can just say they are all psychopaths.

Id rather read the history and analysis.

 

[8ball]

Id rather read the history and analysis.

I’ll take you on your word this time.

 

[Raheem]

il se jette du haut des immeubles parce qu'il est gay. quelle énigme

Tu penses à certains autres arabes, je crois.

 

[two sheds]

I’ll take you on your word this time.

I think Gramsci has done just that from past posts.

 

[8ball]

Tu penses à certains autres arabes, je crois.

Yeah, I’m sure Hamas are lovely once you get to know them.

 

[Gramsci]

Labour denies Starmer justified Israel's water and electricity blockade of Gaza - LabourList

A Labour spokesperson has denied that Keir Starmer said Israel ‘has the right’ to cut off power and…

labourlist.org

TBF to Labour List they put in the video where he says they have right to turn off water and electricity.

This quote below is almost comical in how its trying to desperately say he did not say that.

How does he get away with this?

Asked today whether Starmer had misspoken during the interview, a Labour spokesperson said: “If you listen to the tape, it was one of those things where there were overlapping questions and answers based on what had been being said before.”

 

[8ball]

Labour denies Starmer justified Israel's water and electricity blockade of Gaza - LabourList

A Labour spokesperson has denied that Keir Starmer said Israel ‘has the right’ to cut off power and…

labourlist.org

TBF to Labour List they put in the video where he says they have right to turn off water and electricity.

This quote below is almost comical in how its trying to desperately say he did not say that.

How does he get away with this?

Well, it should be a pretty straightforward matter to get clarification on that.

 

[two sheds]

It was clear

"Oceania has always been at war with Eastasia"

 

[PTK]

I have a mate who is Palestinian. He finds the reflexive anti-semitism of a great many of his friends and family over there to be massively depressing and counter-productive. Despite having had some very traumatic experiences at the hands of the IDF.

There are loads of people who are ignored by the main narratives (from all sides). Gay Palestinians, secularists, people of many stripes from both sides of the divide who want to live in peace, non-religious Zionists (many of whom take a very different tack to the religious ones, esp. with regard to the [illegal] settlements).

There is a heap more diversity in the populations of these regions than is expressed in the propaganda. The purpose of the propaganda is to freeze out those voices.

Like has been said, the populations of the whole area are being played as chess pieces in other peoples geopolitical games.

Most of the early Zionists settlers were non-religious, many thought of themselves as socialists, but they still expropriated the native population.

 

[8ball]

Most of the early Zionists settlers were non-religious, many thought of themselves as socialists, but they still expropriated the native population.

Yeah, fair point re: those cases. I was thinking about differences when it comes to the more religiously disputed areas.