Hamas/Israel conflict: news and discussion

[Raheem]

What makes him think after the ground invasion they will be released?

Think it was that that's what he believes they want to do, because they don't want to be holding hostages from across the UN, it weakens their position. But they would look weak doing it and then being trampled on, so it has to come later.

 

[WhyLikeThis]

Twitter is currently removing accounts who are trying to follow @Pal_ActionUS

I’ve just tested this as have many others. When you follow the account it quickly disappears again.

 

[Bingoman]

Lebanon army says Israel killed member of 'journalist team'

Lebanon's army blamed Israel Friday for killing a member of a "journalist team" covering cross-border tensions in the country's south, as war rages further south between Israel and Gaza-based militants.

www.france24.com

 

[Gramsci]

Novara last night had a fiery response to the situation from Barnaby Raine who, to their credit, pulled no punches. Of course that's just sensationalising it, but what he said was valid I think.

Just watched the first section. Well Barnaby was in full flow. I have met a few anti Zionist Jews. Its not an easy place to be. I've seen anti Zionist Jews get abuse from supporters of Israel. Being told they are self hating Jews. One response is Barnabys - lay right back into them. Which he did. Nothing less than the ending of the Zionist project and 100percent support for Palestinians.

I think he was being provocative to make a point. Israel isn't some democracy that needs a bit of tweaking. I think the way he went on about the party goers adjacent to an Open prison of people evicted from the land was an example of being provocative. He was making the point that Israel is not normal. Its quite surreal. Reminds me of an Israeli film I saw recently- Aheds Knee

In the film which is surreal and full of black humour the main character goes on a rant about the quite bizarre way Israel works. Which is accepted as normal.

btw I tend to try to say Israel state rather than Israel in my posts to distinguish between it and the people. He doesn't.

Anti Zionist Jew I met once was more hard on Israel than me. I had "boring" Walkers response. I could see Walker was a bit taken aback.

His bottom lines were - Zionism is colonial political project. Palestinians are the oppressed and he's not going to criticise how the fight their oppression. Given that for instance few years back when they did peaceful protest at the fence of Gaza they just got shot. Also that Hamas are blamed for the violence that is visited on the people of Gaza ( my comment yes Starmer does this.) by Isreal. He rightly points out in West Bank where the PLO / Fatah run PA is in charge Israel army and settlers still visit violence on Palestinians. Despite the PLO accepting the poor deal it got. His conclusion is that Isreal/ Zionism is just violent.

I was open mouthed at some of the things he said. But I think its a form of speaking that is meant to shake people up. Given the predominance of the of course all violence is wrong / Israel has a right to defend herself/ cycle of violence/ two state solution centre ground thinking.

Quite admire the guy.

Though I dont think he should be full time.

Also think "boring" Walker is a very good presenter.

Barnaby starts 15 minutes in

 

[8ball]

Just watched the first section. Well Barnaby was in full flow. I have met a few anti Zionist Jews. Its not an easy place to be. I've seen anti Zionist Jews get abuse from supporters of Israel. Being told they are self hating Jews. One response is Barnabys - lay right back into them. Which he did. Nothing less than the ending of the Zionist project and 100percent support for Palestinians.

I think he was being provocative to make a point. Israel isn't some democracy that needs a bit of tweaking. I think the way he went on about the party goers adjacent to an Open prison of people evicted from the land was an example of being provocative. He was making the point that Israel is not normal. Its quite surreal. Reminds me of an Israeli film I saw recently- Aheds Knee

Stopping short of screaming “glory be to Allah’s blessed paragliders” was probably wise.

 

[LDC]

Very lucid and balanced former RAF pilot, now military advisor, on the BBC now who knows the weaponry in use and the lay of the land in Gaza explaining how there's 0% chance this was an Israeli strike. The crater just doesn't fit at all with Israeli weaponry. And the footage speaks for itself as well. I don't think you need to be a a military expert to see that the missile is ascending, not descending moments before the hospital goes up in flames.

Can't believe I'm defending the IDF but that's that.

This is a depressing indicator of how fucked up and confused some people are on this.

Coming to a factual conclusion of what happened or on balance stating what is most likely is not taking a side or defending anyone; IDF, Hamas or PIJ.

I also think people need to be aware that this over emotional leaping to conclusions and inflaming the situation is quite possibly part of the dynamic that is likely to cause more deaths on all sides.

 

[andysays]

In contrast to the mealy mouthed statement from the Archbishop of Canterbury posted above, here's the text of an open letter from the Network of Christian Peace Organisations to the British Foreign Secretary

We write to you in response to the outbreak of violence in Israel and Palestine. We urge the UK Government to use its influence to help create space for de-escalation and meaningful dialogue in the coming days and weeks, to urgently avert a deepening humanitarian crisis and military conflict that could cost many more lives than have already been tragically lost. 

Indiscriminate attacks on civilians violate international humanitarian law. We condemn the Hamas attacks on civilians and the taking of civilian hostages. We also condemn the response of the Israeli Government in bombing of Gaza and targeting of the civilian population. The increased restrictions and complete cutting off of water, electricity, food and fuel constitute collective punishment and will create an unprecedented humanitarian crisis in Gaza, exceeding that which already exists as a result of the 16-year blockade.  

We are deeply saddened by the continued violence in the region and urge you work for dialogue and de-escalation. We ask you to support measures for the immediate protection of civilians including a ceasefire, adherence by all parties to international law, and the UN’s call for humanitarian corridors.

Long held concerns about land, peace and security have not been prioritised by the international community. The only way to break the cycle of violence and build a lasting peace is to end the Israeli occupation of the West Bank and the blockade of Gaza and create conditions of justice, equality and peace for all Israelis and Palestinians.

As people of faith, we stand against the Islamophobia and antisemitism many individuals in this country may face as a result of violence in the Middle East. We will do what we can to de-escalate these tensions.

We ask you to avoid supporting polarised arguments and apportioning blame. We ask you to support measures that do not rely on military security but instead build a lasting peace based on justice and equality for all.

 

[kebabking]

This is a depressing indicator of how fucked up and confused some people are on this.

Coming to a factual conclusion of what happened or on balance stating what is most likely is not taking a side or defending anyone; IDF, Hamas or PIJ.

I also think people need to be aware that this over emotional leaping to conclusions and inflaming the situation is quite possibly part of the dynamic that is likely to cause more deaths on all sides.

∆∆∆this∆∆∆

Abbas chinned off his meeting with Biden - the man in the world who is most able to help him get some kind of limited ceasefire and humanitarian aid into Gaza, and possibly some wider political process going, because he leapt to a conclusion about something that very quickly turned out to be incorrect and wouldn't change his tune when it became clear he'd grabbed the wrong end of the stick, however understandably.

Are the effects of that flouncing going to be good or bad for Mr & Mrs Average of Acacia Avenue, Gaza? Well, bad obviously, but sure, what matters is moral certainty...

You know those Tories who were on TV last night saying that the largest, and sixth largest swings against them since 1945 are signs that the voters trust them and that Labour are in trouble?

Yeah, them.

 

[Knotted]

The problem isn't people taking the Israeli side it's people doing performative both sideism for moralistic posturing even when it is completely inane. It is the most moralistic, the most knee jerk people on the thread doing this. Very respected international organisations are saying it was an Israeli strike, the Israeli government is saying it was a PIJ rocket misfiring, the BBC and a few others are saying it's not clear and we have a bunch amateur weapons experts chipping in with their view. Balance of probabilities this was almost certainly an Israeli strike, just because it's not clear what type of weapon they used or how it happened exactly does not mean the PIJ suddenly has a weapon that can do this amount of damage.

In my view people can go down their rabbit holes if they want to and explore whatever. What irks me is the all this getting your high horse when people don't follow you down that rabbit hole. It is absolutely not about undoing a cycle of violence, apart from the fact that we have no influence over what happens in the Middle East, what is happening now is not even a cycle of violence. It's ethnic cleansing and war crimes in a show of performative brutality to the Arab world + Iran in order to bolster Israel's reputation as a country you don't mess with.

 

[tim]

I'm assuming that Hamas intend to hit military targets rather than innocent civilians with their rockets, but maybe I'm being charitable.

Not an approach they took a fortnight ago, even if there are serious questions about the manner in which they murdered children.

 

[Gramsci]

USA used its veto on the Brazilian proposal in UN. I do not see Biden seriously wanting a ceasefire - this is not a matter of the missile on hospital and who fired it.

US has not been an honest broker over Israel for years. Israel for example has been building settlements in West Bank for years and settler violence leading to Palestinians to leave their homes is well documented.

I think the Arab group on UN were correct they would only meet Biden to discuss a ceasefire.

And this is not just about high diplomacy. The Arab street arent having this.

 

[Kid_Eternity]

This is a depressing indicator of how fucked up and confused some people are on this.

Coming to a factual conclusion of what happened or on balance stating what is most likely is not taking a side or defending anyone; IDF, Hamas or PIJ.

I also think people need to be aware that this over emotional leaping to conclusions and inflaming the situation is quite possibly part of the dynamic that is likely to cause more deaths on all sides.

 

[LDC]

The problem isn't people taking the Israeli side it's people doing performative both sideism for moralistic posturing even when it is completely inane. It is the most moralistic, the most knee jerk people on the thread doing this. Very respected international organisations are saying it was an Israeli strike, the Israeli government is saying it was a PIJ rocket misfiring, the BBC and a few others are saying it's not clear and we have a bunch amateur weapons experts chipping in with their view. Balance of probabilities this was almost certainly an Israeli strike, just because it's not clear what type of weapon they used or how it happened exactly does not mean the PIJ suddenly has a weapon that can do this amount of damage.

You have been one of the worst people on this topic for all that btw, didn't you saying you were jumping for joy or crying happy tears at the news reporting of the Hamas massacre of Jews, Israelis and others?

And yes, some respected 'international organisations' have also been quite shit on this topic.

And no, on balance that's not what people are saying at all, that's what you think as the amateur you deride others for.

Damage isn't just cause by the projectile and load, it could have hit fuel or oxygen tanks on impact for example.

I'm off this thread, it's the worst mess I've seen since I've been on here.

 

[strung out]

The problem isn't people taking the Israeli side it's people doing performative both sideism for moralistic posturing even when it is completely inane. It is the most moralistic, the most knee jerk people on the thread doing this. Very respected international organisations are saying it was an Israeli strike, the Israeli government is saying it was a PIJ rocket misfiring, the BBC and a few others are saying it's not clear and we have a bunch amateur weapons experts chipping in with their view. Balance of probabilities this was almost certainly an Israeli strike, just because it's not clear what type of weapon they used or how it happened exactly does not mean the PIJ suddenly has a weapon that can do this amount of damage.

In my view people can go down their rabbit holes if they want to and explore whatever. What irks me is the all this getting your high horse when people don't follow you down that rabbit hole. It is absolutely not about undoing a cycle of violence, apart from the fact that we have no influence over what happens in the Middle East, what is happening now is not even a cycle of violence. It's ethnic cleansing and war crimes in a show of performative brutality to the Arab world + Iran in order to bolster Israel's reputation as a country you don't mess with.

Sorry, I think this whole episode has just melted your brain on this. Every credible expert going is coming to the same conclusion that this wasn’t an Israeli strike. No amount of your reckons about who was most likely to have done it based on who the good guys and bad guys are is going to change that.

Like kebabking says, the consequences of getting it wrong have had very real consequences on the chances of any ceasefire. I hate the Israeli leadership and think the Palestinian people have been grievously wronged for generations, but making up your own narratives to fit untrue versions of reality is never going to lead you anywhere good.

 

[Mr.Bishie]

Here’s a recap of the last few hours:

• In a rare televised address, Biden likened the conflict to the Russia-Ukraine war and pledged to push for billions of dollars in military aid to Israel
• The Pentagon said a US Navy ship shot down missiles and drones fired from Yemen, suggesting they could have been aimed at Israel
• The Greek Orthodox Church of Jerusalem called the suspected Israeli strike at Gaza church on Thursday night a "war crime"
• Iraqis march towards the Jordanian border, Jordanians plan to march towards the Palestinian border
• Hamas leaders call for mass protests across Muslims and Arab world after Friday prayer

Israel-Palestine live: Week three ends with over 7,000 Palestinians killed

Israeli attacks show no sign of abating going into the fourth week of bombardment

www.middleeasteye.net

 

[Gramsci]

Gaza health ministry: 3,785 Palestinians killed in Israeli strikes since Oct.7

At least 3,785 Palestinians have been killed and 12,493 wounded in Israeli strikes on Gaza since Oct.7, the health ministry in Gaza said on Thursday.

www.reuters.com

Death toll 3785 and counting.

At what point will Biden support a ceasefire? 4000?

The argument of the missile on hospital is a distraction to the fact that people in Gaza are being killed every day by Israeli bombing. Civilians not fighters.

 

[Knotted]

The "experts" quoted tend to say they don't know/can't confirm. That's certainly what the BBC position was when they asked their experts. Somehow this has morphed into "can't have been an Israeli strike". As I say you do you, I'm not following you in this speculation. Ask yourself why you're putting so much emotional weight on this.

 

[platinumsage]

Gaza health ministry: 3,785 Palestinians killed in Israeli strikes since Oct.7

At least 3,785 Palestinians have been killed and 12,493 wounded in Israeli strikes on Gaza since Oct.7, the health ministry in Gaza said on Thursday.

www.reuters.com

Death toll 3785 and counting.

At what point will Biden support a ceasefire? 4000?

The only organisation counting is Hamas. Sure, civilians in Gaza are being killed every day, but there's no point paying close attention to the particular numbers because they're almost certainly inflated, as Hamas as a long and consist record of doing.

 

[TopCat]

As Biden gives billions of dollars more to the Israelis it strikes me that the obvious similarity between Ukraine and Israel is that neither country would be able to prosecute the military actions they currently carry out without US financial and military support.

 

[emanymton]

I can't help thinking that focusing on this one missile strike that may or may not have been Israel favours Israel by distracting attention away from all the stuff they are unquestionably doing.

I feel similar about going on about a ceasefire as that plays into the narrative that this is some kind of war between 2 armies when it really isn't.

 

[mojo pixy]

The only organisation counting is Hamas. Sure, civilians in Gaza are being killed every day, but there's no point paying close attention to the particular numbers because they're almost certainly inflated, as Hamas as a long and consist record of doing.

Yeah this is exactly the kind of dismissive partisan statement that won't help this thread stay civil. You're as bad as Knotted except from the 'other side'

 

[mojo pixy]

Having said ^that^, and regardless of the rest of the post this is taken from (which tbh I mostly disagree with) I think this statement is spot on:

what is happening now is not even a cycle of violence. It's ethnic cleansing and war crimes in a show of performative brutality to the Arab world + Iran in order to bolster Israel's reputation as a country you don't mess with.

 

[mojo pixy]

And actually what's really important is this: Israel may liquidate Hamas (as such), but every single bomb that drops on Gaza is acting as a recruiting bell for something even worse to be created, once Hamas are all dead.

This is the only really important point, and as usual Israel is pretending not to see it.

Fucking nightmare.

 

[Knotted]

Why is the hospital blast question urgent for some? There's a danger it will be used to bring in other players and boost the cycle of violence. There's a danger Gaza won't be left on its own to face the music. But that's fine because we all condemn Israeli violence. We're the good ones as Bassem Youssef might say. The horrors of moral narcissism.

 

[kabbes]

If things continue in their current path, there are only two possible endings. Either Israel succeed in their genocide and kill every last Gazan, before occupying what remains. Or the Arab nations that currently appear to be militarising actually invade, resulting in mass Israeli deaths and a much-shrunken Israel trading places with the Palestinians, to become the new equivalent of Gaza. (The middle path of invasion with no outcome, resulting in endless war in Israel, is not an ending.). Israel must surely see this, and maybe are banking on achieving the former before the latter occurs (whether or not the ensuing end plays out, they surely don’t want an endless war in their own country). There has to be an opportunity for countries like the US to pressure Israel to stop the genocide by indicating to them behind the scenes that if they get invaded because of their current actions, they’re on their own.

 

[platinumsage]

Yeah this is exactly the kind of dismissive partisan statement that won't help this thread stay civil. You're as bad as Knotted except from the 'other side'

Am I? I just feel as if I'm stating facts and trying to keep things neutral, I imagine if I'd said similar on the Russia/Ukraine thread it would be viewed as exactly that. I'm obviously not as left wing as most on these boards, but I do actually take on board a lot of what is said and learn from it. However this thread has been quite disturbing to me, to see people who I thought had critical faculties exhibit MAGA-levels of truthism.

 

[kabbes]

Am I? I just feel as if I'm stating facts and trying to keep things neutral, I imagine if I'd said similar on the Russia/Ukraine thread it would be viewed as exactly that. I'm obviously not as left wing as most on these boards, but I do actually take on board a lot of what is said and learn from it. However this thread has been quite disturbing to me, to see people who I thought had critical faculties exhibit MAGA-levels of truthism.

You said:

Sure, civilians in Gaza are being killed every day, but…

^^Whatever follows that beginning to a sentence is not a neutral statement, nor is it a statement about facts.

 

[mojo pixy]

Also platinumsage , Hamas is not the only organization keeping tabs on casualty figures in Gaza.

More than 2,800 deaths have occurred in Gaza since last week, with almost 11,000 injuries, Peeperkorn said at a press conference earlier Tuesday with members of WHO’s Office for the Eastern Mediterranean.

The West Bank had seen 61 deaths, with 1,250 injuries, he added.

Source

 

[The39thStep]

USA used its veto on the Brazilian proposal in UN. I do not see Biden wanting to seriously wanting a ceasefire - this is not a matter of the missile on hospital and who fired it.

US has not been an honest broker over Israel for years. Israel for example has been building settlements in West Bank for years and settler violence leading to Palestinians to leave their homes is well documented.

I think the Arab group on UN were correct they would only meet Biden to discuss a ceasefire.

And this is not just about high diplomacy. The Arab street arent having this.

It may be worth looking at the process and final content of the Brazilian motion and the USA's response to it to understand a little more about the latter's position.


Russia circulated a draft proposal on October 13th and the following day asked Brazil , as October's Council President, to put it to a vote on October 16th. During the 13 October consultations, some members asked Brazil, in its capacity as Council president, to coordinate with the other members and lead the negotiations on a separate Council outcome on the crisis, in an apparent attempt to reduce the perceived politicisation some members associated with the Russian initiative and to increase the chances of the Council adopting an outcome. That evening, Brazil circulated the first draft of its resolution to Council members.


The initial draft text condemned the “terrorist attacks by Hamas”, all violence against civilians and “acts of terrorism”, as well as the “taking of civilian hostages”, calling for their “immediate and unconditional release”. It urged the Israeli authorities to “immediately rescind” the 13 October evacuation order and demanded an end to “measures that result in the deprivation of civilians of objects indispensable to their survival, including electricity, water, fuel, food and medical supplies”. This draft also called for “an immediate ceasefire” and demanded that all parties allow unhindered humanitarian access and for the “establishment of humanitarian pauses that enable humanitarian corridors”.


Following comments from the UAE, Brazil circulated an amended version. These issues apparently included a rejection of Hamas’ 7 October attacks, the need to respect international humanitarian law, the need for humanitarian access and a humanitarian ceasefire, the release of hostages, and the importance of preventing regional spillover of the crisis. the UAE position was that it was important to try and seek middle ground to try and get a resolution through.


Brazil circulated a revised version of its draft, inviting comments until 1 pm the following day, a deadline later extended to 3 pm. In the evening of 15 October, following further amendments a final revised motion was scheduled for vote.


The significant amendments included a stronger condemnation of the 7 October events, “nequivocally reject[ing] and condemn[ing] the heinous terrorist attacks by Hamas” and the taking of civilian hostages. also emphasises the importance of preventing regional spillover of the conflict. A significant departure from the initial version of the Brazilian draft is that it no longer calls “for an immediate ceasefire”. The draft in blue calls for “humanitarian pauses” to allow humanitarian access, whereas the initial draft contained stronger language demanding that all parties promptly allow humanitarian access. It also “encourages” establishing humanitarian corridors and “tresses the importance of a humanitarian notification mechanism to protect UN facilities and all humanitarian sites, and to ensure the movement of aid convoys”.


Apparently, the US did not engage meaningfully in the negotiations on both drafts, prioritising instead bilateral and shuttle diplomacy in the Middle East. This appears to be consistent with the view that the US has expressed in the past that the UN is not “the most practical or useful forum” for discussing issues related to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.


The vote was as follows: for 12 in favour: Albania, Brazil, China, Ecuador, France, Gabon, Ghana, Japan, Malta, Mozambique, Switzerland, and the UAE, two abstained (Russia and the UK) , one against : USA

(summary from Security Council Report website)


The USA's UN ambassador said that :

"Colleagues, as we meet, President Biden is in the region. His trip is a clear demonstration of the fact that the United States is actively engaging at the highest levels: to secure the release of hostages; to prevent the conflict from spreading; to stress the need to protect civilian lives; to address the humanitarian crisis facing Palestinians in Gaza; and to demonstrate to the Israeli people that the United States stands with them in their time of sorrow and need.


We are on the ground, doing the hard work of diplomacy. And while we recognize Brazil’s desire to move this text forward, we believe we need to let that diplomacy play out, especially when Secretary-General Guterres, President Biden, Secretary Blinken, and regional actors are engaged in intensive dialogue on the very issues we are deliberating on today.


Colleagues, the United States is disappointed this resolution made no mention of Israel’s right of self-defense. "


The USA of course didn't engage itself in proposing an amendment or making any attempts at negotiating with an amendment to rectify its disappointment. So the reason that Biden apparently is 'the man in the world who is most able to help him ( Abass) get some kind of limited ceasefire and humanitarian aid into Gaza, and possibly some wider political process going,' is entirely due to the US veto at the UN Security Council and it wanting it to appear that way.

 

[Pickman's model]

Am I? I just feel as if I'm stating facts and trying to keep things neutral, I imagine if I'd said similar on the Russia/Ukraine thread it would be viewed as exactly that. I'm obviously not as left wing as most on these boards, but I do actually take on board a lot of what is said and learn from it. However this thread has been quite disturbing to me, to see people who I thought had critical faculties exhibit MAGA-levels of truthism.

Is it a fact that there's no point paying attention to the figures of Palestinian casualties?