Hamas/Israel conflict: news and discussion

[Cid]

Why is the hospital blast question urgent for some? There's a danger it will be used to bring in other players and boost the cycle of violence. There's a danger Gaza won't be left on its own to face the music. But that's fine because we all condemn Israeli violence. We're the good ones as Bassem Youssef might say. The horrors of moral narcissism.

Why do you keep banging on about it? Does it actually make any functional difference to the perpetration of atrocities against people of Gaza? 'Oh, the forced movement of people, the cutting off of food and water and the bombing of access routes for them, the likely invasion, the repeated talk of 'a prolonged war' that's all fine, it's this one other atrocity that tips the balance'. War is appalling. It is full of shit that feels wildly unjust. We think this or that can't happen in a certain way because it shouldn't. But nonetheless it does because a bunch of guys in a dark cemetery launching improvised rockets from a position that will very likely be obliterated minutes later might make mistakes. There are open questions, but your certainty is entirely unjustified.

I'll also add that video is a lot harder to fake than people assume. Again it's the 'lie is halfway round the world before the truth gets its boots on' thing. Deep fakes etc persist because they're everywhere before they're checked. They're usually quite easily debunked by someone with even fairly basic editing knowledge. Faking video that can be geolocated from multiple different sources in the hours following an attack is just... Well look at IDF man with his cobbled together chart and quite possibly unconvincingly faked intercept. That's the level of ability we're dealing with here. Not shadowy teams of video editors faking video that... Al Jazeera broadcast? I mean what?

 

[kabbes]

New benchmark for Urban

View attachment 396188

There’s normally a hardcore 10% that will vote for any nonsense on these polls. Continuing with no ceasefire couldn’t even manage that benchmark.

 

[The39thStep]

I hope they didn’t literally print “don’t not” on their survey form.

I looked on their site to see if it was standard on their polls but it isn't

 

[Cid]

This is the poll incidentallty:

From what you’ve read and heard, do you think there should or should not be an immediate ceasefire in Israel and Palestine? | Daily Question

From what you’ve read and heard, do you think there should or should not be an immediate ceasefire in Israel and Palestine?

yougov.co.uk

'Don't not' persists.

e2a: men, it turns out, more war-inclined. Surprising findings.

 

[Pickman's model]

From the point of view of people in Gaza, a wider conflagration is the best outcome regardless of the horrors that will bring. It's what I hope for.

I don't know how many Palestinians will be killed over the course of the war. But a bigger conflagration will obvs kill more people and last longer than a 'simple' zionist invasion of Gaza. You may get your desire - things are already moving US troops attacked in Iraq and Syria as EU warns of ‘spillover’ from Israel conflict. But if you think about all the second and third order effects of the war in Ukraine, a regional or wider war centred on the Middle East will likely eclipse the European conflict in its wider impact.

When Hitler and the ussr invaded Poland in 1939 sure a lot of poles were chuffed when they heard Britain and France had joined the war over their plight. But how many lived to see ve day, is a much lower number. I suspect when - if - the current situation eases and a measure of peace returns to gaza a shocking number of mass graves will be revealed as will many corpses be found under buildings. And those who survive will likely face a future with diseases and ailments, and injuries, caused by the conflict. It's an appalling prospect whether the war remains confined to Israel plus gaza and the occupied territories or if it spreads.

 

[kabbes]

I wonder if “don’t not” was mistakenly included on the poll itself, and they think it’s important to accurately reproduce the results as they were actually asked.

 

[8ball]

I wonder if “don’t not” was mistakenly included on the poll itself, and they think it’s important to accurately reproduce the results as they were actually asked.

I’d expect a footnote in this case, but yeah, possible.

 

[redsquirrel]

It may be worth looking at the process and final content of the Brazilian motion and the USA's response to it to understand a little more about the latter's position.


.......

Of course this sort of behaviour, the latest example in the long line of actions by the US against the Palestinians, does not play any role in the views of many Palestinians (and others) of the US and is completely irrelevant to the "flouncing" of Abbas (corrupt, arsehole that he is),

 

[mojo pixy]

I think a good portion of both Israelis and their Government actually don’t see it.

IME Israelis generally see it perfectly well, but they also think 1. they're right and justified, 2. they're stronger by an order of magnitude. And so they go on, thinking they can win this by violence, and throwing "anti-semitism" at anyone who criticises too hard.

 

[Eric Jarvis]

Yes. This was my question earlier. There has been no word of explanation from anyone defending Israel's right to defend itself as to how dropping bombs on Gaza is defending Israel beyond a ludicrous assertion that they are going to wipe out Hamas.

It is 'don't fuck with us or we will fuck with you'. It is 'you kill one of ours, we kill 10 of yours'.

Someone mentioned permanent war as being a possible outcome. But Israel has been in a state of permanent war for decades. I would suggest that there are those on the Israeli side , including its prime minister and president, who like it that way.

I can only conclude that they want to create a new generation that hates them. What other conclusion is there?

This is actually a stated policy amongst a lot of aggressive Zionist groups in Israel including some that have government ministers. "Anu threat must be dealt with by overwhelming retaliation in order to deter further threats". In a situation where grazing sheep in an area wanted by an illegal settlement is defined as a threat, and any Palestinian is treated as a potential Hamas terrorist, it is pushing Israel towards disaster. Like all ideas based on the idea of deterrence, and the idea that your people are resolute in the face of any attack but your "enemy" can be cowed through violence, it is a total absurdity that can't work, but it is widely believed in Israel and also amongst the establishment in many other places.

 

[Eric Jarvis]

That’s why I said that the US could go a long way to pushing Israel to stop its genocide by having a quiet word behind the scenes, that if the response to the genocide is invasion then the Israelis are on their own.

I know that’s not going to happen. But it could happen. If the US willed it.

It won't happen because the US political establishment believes the same nonsensical stuff as the Israeli government. "If you react to threats violently enough then the threats will end, because we are resolute in the face of threats, but they can be cowed by violence." A completely absurd idea that seems to be totally accepted by political establishments around the world entirely unquestioningly.

 

[Eric Jarvis]

That's not the work of reputable pollsters or they wouldn't have fucked up the 'don't know' row so

It's YouGov so definitely not reputable.

 

[dilute micro]

If you read to the end of the post you'll find out

Could have meant different things depending on the scope. I wasn't sure. This isn't a typical row of trading blows between Israel and Hamas. Israel has said they want to put an end to Hamas. That will mean a protracted ground war at the least. Still, people are talking about ceasefire as if they don't believe Israel really intends to do what they've said.

 

[Eric Jarvis]

No, have you a link? Never mind Ive found it (she compares what they are doing now to how bombing Dresden etc was, she considers, justified)

Hundreds of thousands of dead Palestinians is far from unimaginable, those deaths would most likely come from starvation, dehydration and illness, rather than being bombed and shot. Thats how the UK and US managed so expertly to get over the million killed mark in Iraq and likewise 600,000+ killed in Ethiopia this last year - from lack of "aid".

Two unimaginable weeks of siege already so far, sounds like a long time but based on announcements from Israel sounds like that's going to be just the introduction to whats to come.

They are going to say "It isn't a genocide since we only directly killed 10% of them and the rest died through starvation, dehydration, illness, and exposure, and that is the rest of the world's fault for not getting them aid through the borders we closed and our bomb strikes." And the Western media/political establishment will accept that. The air strikes on Khan Yunus and the Rafah Crossing pretty much prove that genocide or at least "ethnic cleansing" is the eventual aim.

 

[Eric Jarvis]

USA used its veto on the Brazilian proposal in UN. I do not see Biden wanting to seriously wanting a ceasefire - this is not a matter of the missile on hospital and who fired it.

US has not been an honest broker over Israel for years. Israel for example has been building settlements in West Bank for years and settler violence leading to Palestinians to leave their homes is well documented.

I think the Arab group on UN were correct they would only meet Biden to discuss a ceasefire.

And this is not just about high diplomacy. The Arab street arent having this.

Nor from what I have been hearing on the street is the UK Muslim street.

 

[dilute micro]

That’s why I said that the US could go a long way to pushing Israel to stop its genocide by having a quiet word behind the scenes, that if the response to the genocide is invasion then the Israelis are on their own.

I know that’s not going to happen. But it could happen. If the US willed it.

I really doubt the US are ignoring what Israel are doing. I don't think they can stop Israel from invasion or any of the other things. They supposedly made progress with allowing water. How is that going?

 

[Pickman's model]

Could have meant different things depending on the scope. I wasn't sure. This isn't a typical row of trading blows between Israel and Hamas. Israel has said they want to put an end to Hamas. That will mean a protracted ground war at the least. Still, people are talking about ceasefire as if they don't believe Israel really intends to do what they've said.

People say a lot of things

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Could have meant different things depending on the scope. I wasn't sure. This isn't a typical row of trading blows between Israel and Hamas. Israel has said they want to put an end to Hamas. That will mean a protracted ground war at the least. Still, people are talking about ceasefire as if they don't believe Israel really intends to do what they've said.

Israel appears to have no intention of a ceasefire. Doesn't mean others shouldn't call for one. Only makes it more important for others to call for one.

There are some bizarre posts on this thread berating people for wanting the right thing to happen as if you were only allowed to contemplate what is likely to happen. Let's all just give up protesting and resisting, eh? We don't have the power after all. What's the point?

 

[ska invita]

I don't think they can stop Israel from invasion or any of the other things.

Stop it? Theyre funding it!! Just got back to the US and asked for some more billions

They supposedly made progress with allowing water. How is that going?

Biden taking credit for 20 trucks of aid for 2 million people - its not a token amount its spitting on the Palestinians

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I really doubt the US are ignoring what Israel are doing. I don't think they can stop Israel from invasion or any of the other things. They supposedly made progress with allowing water. How is that going?

They've just promised extra money for weapons on top of the 4 billion a year they already give. The idea that the US is a restraining force here is laughable.

 

[CNT36]

That's not the work of reputable pollsters or they wouldn't have fucked up the 'don't know' row so

I mean they must write it everyday. Made me think it was a fake but it is on the yougov website

 

[The39thStep]

This is the poll incidentallty:

From what you’ve read and heard, do you think there should or should not be an immediate ceasefire in Israel and Palestine? | Daily Question

From what you’ve read and heard, do you think there should or should not be an immediate ceasefire in Israel and Palestine?

yougov.co.uk

'Don't not' persists.

e2a: men, it turns out, more war-inclined. Surprising findings.

‘I love a man in uniform ‘

 

[Idris2002]

Has anyone seen stuff claiming that the IDF has already made ground raids into Gaza, which haven't ended well at all for them?

Truth may be the first casualty of war, but this is the first, I think, properly post-literate war, fought out on the net of a billion lies. So I don't know if this one is for real or not: but it would be interesting to know if it had been confirmed or not.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

‘I love a man in uniform ‘

It's a pretty consistent result across demographics, though. There are more psychotic deranged men calling for the fighting to continue than women, but it's still only 1 in 20. The young are more likely not to know than the old. But there's a solid majority in favour of a ceasefire across the demographics. And that places the majority of British people further towards the side of peace than the Archbishop of Canterbury.

 

[Pickman's model]

Has anyone seen stuff claiming that the IDF has already made ground raids into Gaza, which haven't ended well at all for them?

Truth may be the first casualty of war, but this is the first, I think, properly post-literate war, fought out on the net of a billion lies. So I don't know if this one is for real or not: but it would be interesting to know if it had been confirmed or not.

Who was it who wrote about the 91 gulf war never having happened?

 

[eoin_k]

Who was it who wrote about the 91 gulf war never having happened?

Baudrillard

 

[Idris2002]

Who was it who wrote about the 91 gulf war never having happened?

Baudrillard

I remember that one - front page of Le Monde where was he published it. And most people said "this fucking guy, this time he's gone too far". But as mass media put more and more space between people being bombed, and those watching it on TV, well, it's starting to look like he had a point. . .

 

[AnnO'Neemus]

Queensberry rules. Hitting below the belt and kicking a defenceless opponent both approved in Bloomsbury rules

Oops! Thank you. I misremembered, knew it was something-bury/berry.

 

[Larry O'Hara]

Who was it who wrote about the 91 gulf war never having happened?

Here is the Baudrillard stuff

 

[AnnO'Neemus]

I wonder if “don’t not” was mistakenly included on the poll itself, and they think it’s important to accurately reproduce the results as they were actually asked.

I'm guessing it was a typo, supposed to be 'don't know.'