Hamas/Israel conflict: news and discussion

[mojo pixy]

Yes agree you would have thought as someone whose country is under partial occupation by larger country that he would at least get it that Israel has treated Palestinians badly. Taking their land.

Does anyone now if he has questioned Israels actions at any point in last years?

There's a town in Ukraine called Uman, where there's a shrine at the grave of a Rabbi, Nachman, who famously said he will intercede in heaven for any Jew who faithfully makes a pilgrimage to ask for his intercession. There's a bit of a cult of around this rabbi among hassidim everywhere, and this includes strong links with Israeli religious communities. I believe the Israeli police even have a permanent representative in Uman to keep track of troublemakers and advise the ukrainian police.

Anyway that's a very live link between Israel and Ukraine and possibly the kind of thing any leader of Ukraine might be thinking about in their dealings.

There's a core point your making that's fine but what that means in practice is speculation. This is going to turn into a pure war of offense so it's not as if they are facing an existential threat.

But it's what the Israeli government and media can say on this, true or not, that really matters.

 

[Gramsci]

There's a town in Ukraine called Uman, where there's a shrine at the grave of a Rabbi, Nachman, who famously said he will intercede in heaven for any Jew who faithfully makes a pilgrimage to ask for his intercession. There's a bit of a cult of around this rabbi among hassidim everywhere, and this includes strong links with Israeli religious communities. I believe the Israeli police even have a permanent representative in Uman to keep track of troublemakers and advise the ukrainian police.

Anyway that's a very live link between Israel and Ukraine and possibly the kind of thing any leader of Ukraine might be thinking about in their dealings.


But it's what the Israeli government and media can say on this, true or not, that really matters.

Sorry don't see what this post has to do with what I said.

 

[not-bono-ever]

What a fuckin mess. Utterly dreadful waste of life on both sides.

 

[mojo pixy]

Sorry don't see what this post has to do with what I said.

Fair enough, I just mean whether Zelensky or any leader of Ukraine approves or doesn't of the actions of the Israeli state (apart from the obvious having their hands quite full the last year or two), there are deep cultural links between those two countries, loads of Israelis have family in Ukraine and vice versa. So publicly expressing disapproval on behalf of Ukraine might not be a simple matter for someone in his position.

(**to add) Also, he might be wary of pushing Israel closer to Russia.

 

[tim]

It's worth noting that virtually the entire adult population of Israel 1. have had military basic training, 2. at some point did three years' military service and 3. are military reservists and can be mobilised. IIRC any military reservist without a criminal record is legally allowed to keep firearms at home. "The IDF" isn't just the people in uniform today, it's potentially just about everyone. Apart from North Korea I think Israel is one of the most militarised nations on Earth. A lot of people make the mistake of thinking it's some kind of 'western' country where freedom and democracy reign. In Israel, security explicitly beats both democracy and freedom, and if push comes to shove (that phrase again) you literally won't believe what happens next.

But that's just like, my opinion man.

Every Swiss man is supposed to do national service and remain in the reserved until they're in their fifties and they have to keep their state issue firearm at home. South Koreans like their counterparts up-North do a couple of years national servicr and have to be ready to return to the fold if the balloon goes up. Every home in San Marino is supposed to keep a functioning crossbow at the ready case in case the Italians get greedy.

You can't get much more democratic than Switzerland or San Marino. The latter has four Regents (Heads' of State) a year and a population of 30,000 and the former have dozens of referendums every year.

Israel of course can never be a real democracy whilst the Palestinians are subjugated

 

[Pickman's model]

.

 

[Gramsci]

Fair enough, I just mean whether Zelensky or any leader of Ukraine approves or doesn't of the actions of the Israeli state (apart from the obvious having their hands quite full the last year or two), there are deep cultural links between those two countries, loads of Israelis have family in Ukraine and vice versa. So publicly expressing disapproval on behalf of Ukraine might not be a simple matter for someone in his position.

So his response is realpolitik.

As to me he seems to be making sweeping statement that is not what Id call a measured response.

 

[LDC]

US statement about moving more military nearer, aircraft carrier and destroyers most significantly. Fucks sake 2023.

 

[Pickman's model]

US statement about moving more military nearer, aircraft carrier and destroyers most significantly. Fucks sake 2023.

What a shitshow this is turning into

 

[tim]

Fair enough, I just mean whether Zelensky or any leader of Ukraine approves or doesn't of the actions of the Israeli state (apart from the obvious having their hands quite full the last year or two), there are deep cultural links between those two countries, loads of Israelis have family in Ukraine and vice versa. So publicly expressing disapproval on behalf of Ukraine might not be a simple matter for someone in his position.

(**to add) Also, he might be wary of pushing Israel closer to Russia.

Both Russia and Ukraine have strong economic, cultural and political links with Israel so neither is likely to be too critical of the policies of the Israeli government. In the context of this attack there will almost certainly be Israeli victims who have dual nationality with Russia and Ukraine. I think 20% or so of Israelis were born or have parents or grandparents born in the former USSR

Also if you refer to the Israeli "state" why not also refer to the Russian "state" or the Ukrainian "state"? For me, none of them seem to have that much legitimacy, anymore than the British state does but singling out the one with a majority Jewish population is a bit suspect.

 

[not-bono-ever]

So Gerald Ford is returning to the zone to sort things out - this time in aircraft carrier form

 

[mojo pixy]

So his response is realpolitik.

As to me he seems to be making sweeping statement that is not what Id call a measured response.

I think realpolitik is right, as well as the hands full thing. But in the EU who criticizes Israel either? Russia won't, the US won't.

 

[tim]

US statement about moving more military nearer, aircraft carrier and destroyers most significantly. Fucks sake 2023.

Yes, 2023 and a Presidential Election in 2024. Biden has to be seen doing something, even if in reality he does nothing.

 

[tim]

I think realpolitik is right, as well as the hands full thing. But in the EU who criticizes Israel either? Russia won't, the US won't.

You have absurd expectations of ruling political elites

 

[mojo pixy]

Both Russia and Ukraine have strong economic, cultural and political links with Israel so neither is likely to be too critical of the policies of the Israeli government. In the context of this attack there will almost certainly be Israeli victims who have dual nationality with Russia and Ukraine. I think 20% or so of Israelis were born or have parents or grandparents born in the former USSR

Also if you refer to the Israeli "state" why not also refer to the Russian "state" or the Ukrainian "state"? For me, none of them seem to have that much legitimacy, anymore than the British state does but singling out the one with a majority Jewish population is a bit suspect.

"suspect" lol, stop this. No, there's nothing suspect about it and I'm not sharing my own connection with the place and people because I've already said I don't consider that stuff particularly relevant to the validity of views expressed here.

You have absurd expectations of ruling political elites

I never said I expect them to criticise Israel / the Israeli state. As a matter of fact I expect them not to, for many reasons.

 

[The39thStep]

Fair enough, I just mean whether Zelensky or any leader of Ukraine approves or doesn't of the actions of the Israeli state (apart from the obvious having their hands quite full the last year or two), there are deep cultural links between those two countries, loads of Israelis have family in Ukraine and vice versa. So publicly expressing disapproval on behalf of Ukraine might not be a simple matter for someone in his position.

(**to add) Also, he might be wary of pushing Israel closer to Russia.

Actually, the Ukrainian ambassador to the United Nations likened Israel' to the Russian occupiers of Crimea in 2016 . Yelchenko, the ambassador , was dismissed from his later post as ambassador to the USA by Zelensky in 2021

 

[mojo pixy]

Actually, the Ukrainian ambassador to the United Nations likened Israel' to the Russian occupiers of Crimea in 2016 . Yelchenko, the ambassador , was dismissed from his later post as ambassador to the USA by Zelensky in 2021

That'll be the realpolitik then

 

[planetgeli]

Zelensky, who has always supported Israel (Arguably seeing them as the 'Ukrainians' to Palestine's 'Russia'), has been involved in a protracted argument for weapons from Israel for about 18 months now. He even compared Ukraine to the holocaust, which really pissed off the Israelis he was trying to win over. Regardless, even though it's never going to happen because of Israel's ties with Russia, he's not about to wipe out ANY chance by suddenly doing a volte-face over Hamas.

And it looks like Israel will be wanting to use a fair few of those weapons themselves over the coming weeks.

 

[Mr.Bishie]

What a shitshow this is turning into

Been a shit show since 1948.

 

[T & P]

That the Israeli government gets special treatment from Western powers and most of the mainstream Western media is hardly news. But as with all previous flashpoint incidents in my lifetime, once more we have blatant breaches of international law and conventions being carried out by Israel that are not questioned, let alone protested, by either governments of media. Specifically their intentional, and actually announced in advance with glee for good measure, plans to ‘turn parts of Gaza into rubble’. They have already demolished entire apartment blocks, and are telling innocent civilians to leave their homes because all signs point to them about to flatten half of Gaza City.

Even the mighty all-ruling US government and military would undoubtedly receive nowadays a massive degree of criticism in the Western media, and rightly so, if they decided to wreck the city where the leadership of ISIS or other such organisations were based. The thought of them flattening entire neighbourhoods on purpose as a self-declared retribution exercise is all but unthinkable. And yet we have this Netanyahu cunt announcing he’s about to order revenge collective punishment widespread bombardments in breach of international law, and all we get is statements of support Israel having the right to defend itself. WTAF?

 

[TopCat]

Every Swiss man is supposed to do national service and remain in the reserved until they're in their fifties and they have to keep their state issue firearm at home. South Koreans like their counterparts up-North do a couple of years national servicr and have to be ready to return to the fold if the balloon goes up. Every home in San Marino is supposed to keep a functioning crossbow at the ready case in case the Italians get greedy.

You can't get much more democratic than Switzerland or San Marino. The latter has four Regents (Heads' of State) a year and a population of 30,000 and the former have dozens of referendums every year.

Israel of course can never be a real democracy whilst the Palestinians are subjugated

The other countries you mentioned don’t have national service that includes killing and maiming people. The IDF are a bit unique like that.

 

[Bingoman]

US statement about moving more military nearer, aircraft carrier and destroyers most significantly. Fucks sake 2023.

I wonder what Hezbollah or Iran do if the US did that?

 

[kabbes]

I have no support for launching an attack that kills hundreds of civilians. I do, however, see this kind of violence as an inevitable part of how a colonised people will response to their colonisers, especially when this involves the active repression, subjugation, dehumanisation and impoverishment of the colonised. Desperate people respond in desperation.

 

[Johnny Vodka]

US statement about moving more military nearer, aircraft carrier and destroyers most significantly. Fucks sake 2023.

The only role the US should be taking in this is trying to broker a peace deal part of which ensures the long-term dignity of the Palestinians. Why does Israel need additional, outside firepower when they still use their might to steal and annex Palestinian land?

 

[kabbes]

One of the biggest stumbling blocks to negotiated peace is the attitude that there are “two sides to the story” and that this is some kind of symmetric warfare. If the situation were instead understood as an asymmetric dispute, a colonisation in which the colonised need to have the crimes against them acknowledged before they can psychologically move on, there would be a much greater chance of success.

 

[Rob Ray]

It says a lot about the absolute state of mainstream political discourse that "I don't approve but I understand" is not just controversial but perceived as a completely out there take.

 

[Knotted]

Been a shit show since 1948.

1937 wasn't great.

 

[Mr.Bishie]

The only role the US should be taking in this is trying to broker a peace deal part of which ensures the long-term dignity of the Palestinians.

You are aware that the US is the largest supplier of killing equipment to Israel?

 

[Bingoman]

Islamic jihad are now claiming they have 30 Israeli hostages

 

[Mr.Bishie]

1937 wasn't great.

Good job we won’t be bombed or dragged out of our beds & shot in the head tonight, eh?