Hamas/Israel conflict: news and discussion

[WhyLikeThis]

Do you have a view re the civilians killed and kidnapped by Hamas at the start of this?

The actions taken by Hamas was not “the start of this”.

 

[Gramsci]

David Lammy again

Braverman on yesterday's demo, I think she might actually have lost it:

View attachment 395568

source

There were a lot of police around the edges of the demo sitting in vans. The actual presence of police on the march was minimal. The march was peaceful. With whole families and children attending. I did not see any trouble. Left about half three.

Not surprised by what Bravermann says its not dissimilar to the line taken by Labour party leadership. Anything less than Standing by Israel is if not anti semitic then making an atmosphere where anti semitism can arise.

See Lammy being quoted in recent Huffington Post

David Lammy Says It Is 'Right' That Labour Politicians Avoid Palestine Protests

The shadow foreign secretary said MPs "should be very careful" not to drive division.

www.huffingtonpost.co.uk

Appears Labour Cllrs and MPs were emailed not to attend protests/ demos. He was asked if this applied across the board - pro Israel demos and did not answer in a clear way. So imo its directed at pro Palestinian demos. Like yesterday. I did not see any Labour party banners yesterday.

I was listening to Novara media last night ( forgot who it was) they said a noticeable thing is the difference between say Republic of Ireland and here in terms the political atmosphere. In the Republic the political centre do criticise the Israel government in attacking Gaza and cutting off supplies of water and electricity. There its a measured response condemning recent violence of Hamas and the collective punishment of the people of Gaza In the Republic this is not seen as creating atmosphere of anti semitism. Here the the centre politicians are blatantly accusing anyone who actively supports Palestinians of anti semitism.

IMO there is little difference between Labour leadership and Tories on this. The tone is different but not the message they are putting out. The political space to support Palestinian rights has been poisoned here by centre politicians.

 

[cesare]

I was just watching some YouTube shorts and got an "Israel needs your support" slipped in there.

Now it's Human Appeal for Palestinians

 

[Gramsci]

I was looking up stuff on youtube last night and bizarre ad came up purporting to be from State of Israel asking people to Stand by Israel.

 

[Aladdin]

Most of Israels previous crimes, while extreme and grotesque have not warranted that comparison.

This time, they are overtly, consciously and unashamedly planning and executing genocide. We are getting to the point where we need to ask ourselves what are we doing to stop this?

What can we do?
Ordinary people can't do much bar march and lobby politicians.

 

[JimW]

Arab paramedic stayed behind to treat the injured at the festival after the attack and was killed too: An Arab paramedic who treated Israelis injured by Hamas militants is remembered as a hero

 

[littlebabyjesus]

There were a lot of police around the edges of the demo sitting in vans. The actual presence of police on the march was minimal. The march was peaceful. With whole families and children attending. I did not see any trouble. Left about half three.

Yep. Only trouble I saw was the scuffle with the pocket of far-right England flag wavers. That scuffle was managed by marshals, who kept people back semi-successfully. They did have their flags taken off them, though. No police anywhere to be seen until after the trouble had passed.

Other than that, I saw nothing. There was no anti-Jewish chanting at all. No anti-Jewish banners. Plenty about the terror state of Israel, plenty about freedom for Palestinians, and also plenty about Palestinians' right to return. And why not? Good banner I saw said 'Sunak, Starmer. Nabka deniers'.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Lots of terrible things happening recently but what do people see as the long-term solutions to this conflict that has raged for decades. Two-state solution? Single state solution or something else? Could there be some sort of "truth and reconciliation" such as seen in South Africa? What does anyone think? Surely the answer no-one wants is decades more of the same.

This, what we see right now, is the result of an attempt at a two-state solution. Never going to work. One state shared by Jews and Arabs, Israelis and Palestinians, with equal rights for all. It's the only possible solution imo. How do we get there? Nobody knows that, do they? Not like this.

 

[RubyToogood]

Now it's Human Appeal for Palestinians

I'm just getting Walker's Crisps now which is hardly fair balance.

Ooh nope, back to Stand with Israel. "Hamas=Isis".

 

[WhyLikeThis]

What can we do?
Ordinary people can't do much bar march and lobby politicians.

Lobbying politicians does not work.

If you get the ear of an MP, that MP kicks off a debate in the House of Commons, then that debate manages to pressure the Government, then by a miracle the UK Government takes this to the UN. At the UN the overwhelming majority of nations decide genocide is not cool. They then pass various resolutions, the world, almost in unison, is saying no to this abuse.

Then the USA vetoes any action to stop Israel, voiding all of the mechanisms that are meant to be in place to allow peaceful change.

The Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions movement is what Palestinian civil society has been asking us to participate in. Hit the Israelis where it hurts. It bypasses the smoke and mirrors of “democratic” processes. It’s what Israel fears. They have been engaging in lawfare for years to tackle this. They take this very seriously because it will work.

Get Involved | BDS Movement

bdsmovement.net

 

[cupid_stunt]

Braverman on yesterday's demo, I think she might actually have lost it:

View attachment 395568

source

Every media report I've seen or read has mentioned how peaceful the march was, and how there was little sign of support for Hamas, just support for the innocent Palestinians.

Still, if she wants to show herself up as talking out of her arse, fine by me.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Every media report I've seen or read has mentioned how peaceful the march was, and how there was little sign of support for Hamas, just support for the innocent Palestinians.

Still, if she wants to show herself up as talking out of her arse, fine by me.

No sign of support for Hamas at all. Problem is that if you weren't there and you don't read those reports, which aren't exactly on the front pages of the news outlets I've looked at, it's all too easy to assume the march was something it was not.

And plenty of reports have singled out the 'From the river to the sea, Palestine will be free' chant, which was indeed very prominent. And if you don't know the history of the region, you might well believe the Braverman line that saying that is hate speech.

 

[gentlegreen]

Teacher killed and two injured in stabbing at school in northern France

Arrested suspect was on watchlist of people known to be security risk in connection with radical Islamism

www.theguardian.com

A teacher has been killed and two other people critically injured in a stabbing at a school in Arras, northern France.

The suspected attacker, who has been arrested, was on a watchlist of people known to be a security risk in connection with radical Islamism. Local media reported that he was a former pupil at the Gambetta-Carnot school.

Police said the man was born in 2003 in Russia’s mainly Muslim southern region of Chechnya. He arrived in France in 2008 with his family.

Other sources told French media the 20-year-old had been flagged as a possible security risk only 11 days ago and had been under surveillance by the country’s intelligence services including phone taps. He was reportedly stopped by police on Thursday but released.

 

[Johnny Vodka]

By the sound of it, Suella should show us some evidence for her claims or apologise and STFU.

 

[cupid_stunt]

No sign of support for Hamas at all.

You mean you didn't see any support for Hamas, I've seen a couple of photos, one of two women with pictures on their backs showing Hamas hang-gliders coming in for attack, the other of an old chap with a Hamas flag, who was prevented from unfolding it by others, both were clearly very minor stuff.

Although if the SWP were about selling their rag, with that shocking front page, then that would be a major sign of support for Hamas.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

You mean you didn't see any support for Hamas, I've seen a couple of photos, one of two women with pictures on their backs showing Hamas hang-gliders coming in for attack, the other of an old chap with a Hamas flag, who was prevented from unfolding it by others, both were clearly very minor stuff.

Although if the SWP were about selling their rag, with the shocking front page, then that would be a major sign of support for Hamas.

Yes, fair enough. When I reached the end, I did walk right back along the march, though. So I can say with confidence that anything I missed was entirely unrepresentative.

Problem is, of course, that photographers will latch on to the atypical banners, etc, as they are a story. A bunch of signs saying 'Stop Bombing Gaza' isn't newsworthy.

And however much they might have wanted it to be, this march was not about the SWP.

 

[Kid_Eternity]

Christ. I looked up something on YouTube and got a propaganda advert from the Israeli Foreign Affairs Ministry.

There’s a deluge of pro Israeli adverts on YT right now, ramped up about three days ago from what I can see…

 

[Kid_Eternity]

What can we do?
Ordinary people can't do much bar march and lobby politicians.

We can support the humanitarian effort by donating to charities who are active in Gaza.

 

[Dystopiary]

David Lammy again


There were a lot of police around the edges of the demo sitting in vans. The actual presence of police on the march was minimal. The march was peaceful. With whole families and children attending. I did not see any trouble. Left about half three.

Not surprised by what Bravermann says its not dissimilar to the line taken by Labour party leadership. Anything less than Standing by Israel is if not anti semitic then making an atmosphere where anti semitism can arise.

See Lammy being quoted in recent Huffington Post

David Lammy Says It Is 'Right' That Labour Politicians Avoid Palestine Protests

The shadow foreign secretary said MPs "should be very careful" not to drive division.

www.huffingtonpost.co.uk

Appears Labour Cllrs and MPs were emailed not to attend protests/ demos. He was asked if this applied across the board - pro Israel demos and did not answer in a clear way. So imo its directed at pro Palestinian demos. Like yesterday. I did not see any Labour party banners yesterday.

I was listening to Novara media last night ( forgot who it was) they said a noticeable thing is the difference between say Republic of Ireland and here in terms the political atmosphere. In the Republic the political centre do criticise the Israel government in attacking Gaza and cutting off supplies of water and electricity. There its a measured response condemning recent violence of Hamas and the collective punishment of the people of Gaza In the Republic this is not seen as creating atmosphere of anti semitism. Here the the centre politicians are blatantly accusing anyone who actively supports Palestinians of anti semitism.

IMO there is little difference between Labour leadership and Tories on this. The tone is different but not the message they are putting out. The political space to support Palestinian rights has been poisoned here by centre politicians.

I'd argue that Labour are far from centre on anything. They're very clearly right-wing.

 

[Kid_Eternity]

This, what we see right now, is the result of an attempt at a two-state solution. Never going to work. One state shared by Jews and Arabs, Israelis and Palestinians, with equal rights for all. It's the only possible solution imo. How do we get there? Nobody knows that, do they? Not like this.

Given the demographics involved will this ever be acceptable to the Israeli right and religious reactionaries?

 

[The39thStep]

Yep. Only trouble I saw was the scuffle with the pocket of far-right England flag wavers. That scuffle was managed by marshals, who kept people back semi-successfully. They did have their flags taken off them, though. No police anywhere to be seen until after the trouble had passed.

Other than that, I saw nothing. There was no anti-Jewish chanting at all. No anti-Jewish banners. Plenty about the terror state of Israel, plenty about freedom for Palestinians, and also plenty about Palestinians' right to return. And why not? Good banner I saw said 'Sunak, Starmer. Nabka deniers'.

The England flag waivers were Turning Point U.K. who unfortunately lost one of their flags.

 

[Gramsci]

Apart from SWP the biggest left group I saw were Socialist Appeal.

Here is their statement:

IMT statement: Defend Gaza! Down with imperialist hypocrisy! | The Communist

The escalation of the Israel-Palestine conflict has led to a chorus of hypocritical condemnation from the western imperialists. The communists stand firmly on the side of the oppressed, against the oppressors. We say: Intifada until victory!

socialist.net

Our enemies will say: then you support Hamas. To this accusation we will answer: we have never supported Hamas. We do not share its ideology, nor do we condone the methods it uses.

We are communists and have our own ideas, programme, and methods, based on the class struggle between rich and poor, oppressors and oppressed. It is this that determines our attitude in every case.

In the last analysis, only the establishment of a united front between the people of Palestine and the working class and progressive layers of Israeli society will create the possibility of dividing the Israeli state on class lines, opening the way for a lasting and democratic settlement of the Palestinian question.

Socialist Appeal might not be everyones cup of tea but they are clear in what they want to see. They had banners saying for a Socialist Socialist Federation of the Middle East.

So I don't think they could be accused of anti semitism

 

[The39thStep]

I'm just getting Walker's Crisps now which is hardly fair balance.

Ooh nope, back to Stand with Israel. "Hamas=Isis".

McDonalds - more faces than Fu Manchu

 

[JimW]

They had banners saying for a Socialist Socialist Federation of the Middle East.

Doesn't get more socialist than that, unless it's a socialist socialist socialist federation, of course.

 

[Kid_Eternity]

Apart from SWP the biggest left group I saw were Socialist Appeal.

Here is their statement:

IMT statement: Defend Gaza! Down with imperialist hypocrisy! | The Communist

The escalation of the Israel-Palestine conflict has led to a chorus of hypocritical condemnation from the western imperialists. The communists stand firmly on the side of the oppressed, against the oppressors. We say: Intifada until victory!

socialist.net

Socialist Appeal might not be everyones cup of tea but they are clear in what they want to see. They had banners saying for a Socialist Socialist Federation of the Middle East.

So I don't think they could be accused of anti semitism

Good to see a nuanced position which includes Jews.

 

[MickiQ]

McDonalds - more faces than Fu Manchu

TBh those two aims are not mutually exclusive supplying the IDF with free McD's every day might very well sap their will to fight

 

[Dystopiary]

Teacher killed and two injured in stabbing at school in northern France

Arrested suspect was on watchlist of people known to be security risk in connection with radical Islamism

www.theguardian.com

Horrible and tragic as this is, I don't understand the relevance to the thread.

 

[Kid_Eternity]

The divisions in Israel remain.

 

[PR1Berske]

The actions taken by Hamas was not “the start of this”.

Hamas did start this by slaughtering a music festival. They committed a terrorist act.

The wider context is an Israeli state committed to treating Palestine as a jail for their own ends. It's possible to hold both views that Hamas are terrorists and Israeli actions are wholly wrong.

 

[gentlegreen]

Horrible and tragic as this is, I don't understand the relevance to the thread.

fair enough - sorry