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Israel, Gaza and the propaganda war

i) I repeat - noone here or on any of the other threads to my knowledge has done anything other than state the deaths of innocent israeli civilians are a crime or are a bad thing;
ii) demanding that 8 deaths are treated the same as 700 is not only nonsensical, it hugely devalues the 700;
iii) your cretinry has been firmly established long before this thread, though sadly I was under the happy impression you had left.

A statement that you won't condem someone for doing something is the exact same thing as stating the deaths of innocent israeli civilians are not a crime and are not a bad thing.

I am shocked that you are refusing to accept that.

I am not demanding anything of the sort, again it is YOUR argument of Equivalence....as far as I am concerned if you murder innocent people...you are a cunt.

It doesn't matter how many you kill. You are just simply a cunt.

Ahhh so iii is the reality, you have a beef with me, so assail my logic as if it was broken, when the truth is that your petty dislike of me has coloured your logical abilities.

Thats ok, i think you are a twat too, but atleast I can make sense and think you are a twat, you just making yourself look like a chump for teh internet to see, simply because you don't like me....have a good think about that agricola...you letting me win really.
 
Is 11 innocent dead not 11 innocent dead?

or is it as I said about Spion earlier.

it isn't the murder you are against, it is just that Israel is better at it?

If palestine was better at it, we would all be sitting here talking about the propoganda of Hamas?

Does that really seem like a sensible position to hold?

Surely the sensible position is to condemn both sides?

You talk rot. Just what point are you trying to make?
 
A statement that you won't condem someone for doing something is the exact same thing as stating the deaths of innocent israeli civilians are not a crime and are not a bad thing.
I'm not a pacifist.

Violence is sometimes (sadly) necessary and is sometimes justified.

Those occasions include when a people are being ethnically cleansed and held under siege and attacked at will.

I'll no more condemn Palestinian violence than I would have condemned Jewish partisans actions against the Wehrmacht in WW2, or a black slave revolt against their masters.
 
The question the foreign media really wants answered is invariably not "who's in the right?" but "how will this round of fighting improve the overall situation?" And on that point, Israel never has a convincing argument. Given the country's long history of engaging in wars that kill many more of its enemies than its own citizens but only buy a few months or years of calm, it's a tough call to explain how this latest escapade will change the strategic balance, bring peace and prevent the need for another such bloodbath further down the line. Often that's because there is in fact no good reason: Wars are fought for short-term gains. And it doesn't help that with the constant competition for power within Israeli coalitions, it's easy to interpret this war, like many others, as a political imperative, not a strategic one.

And so when the question the world is asking is not "who's right?" but "what works?" the consistent impression Israel leaves is that it kills people because, at best, it simply doesn't have any better ideas, and at worst, because some Israeli leader is trying to get the upper hand on one of his or her rivals. And no amount of hasbara can make that look good.
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1053605.html
Excellent article on Israel's 'PR War'
 
A statement that you won't condem someone for doing something is the exact same thing as stating the deaths of innocent israeli civilians are not a crime and are not a bad thing.

I am shocked that you are refusing to accept that.

I am not demanding anything of the sort, again it is YOUR argument of Equivalence....as far as I am concerned if you murder innocent people...you are a cunt.

It doesn't matter how many you kill. You are just simply a cunt.

Ahhh so iii is the reality, you have a beef with me, so assail my logic as if it was broken, when the truth is that your petty dislike of me has coloured your logical abilities.

Thats ok, i think you are a twat too, but atleast I can make sense and think you are a twat, you just making yourself look like a chump for teh internet to see, simply because you don't like me....have a good think about that agricola...you letting me win really.

Can you fuck off this informative thread, you moronic twat.
 
A statement that you won't condem someone for doing something is the exact same thing as stating the deaths of innocent israeli civilians are not a crime and are not a bad thing.

I am shocked that you are refusing to accept that.

I am not demanding anything of the sort, again it is YOUR argument of Equivalence....as far as I am concerned if you murder innocent people...you are a cunt.

It doesn't matter how many you kill. You are just simply a cunt.

Ahhh so iii is the reality, you have a beef with me, so assail my logic as if it was broken, when the truth is that your petty dislike of me has coloured your logical abilities.

Thats ok, i think you are a twat too, but atleast I can make sense and think you are a twat, you just making yourself look like a chump for teh internet to see, simply because you don't like me....have a good think about that agricola...you letting me win really.

No, my dislike of you is fully evidenced thanks to several past threads, in which you act in exactly the same clueless way as you have here - ignoring comments, even when they are repeated that fundamentally contradict whatever drivel you have dressed up as argument.

I will make one last attempt to phrase this in language you may (a futile belief, I know) understand. The deaths of 8 innocent people is wrong. The deaths of 700 innocent people is really wrong.

This concept, which should be blatantly obvious given that a higher level of punishment for multiple killings exists in nearly every criminal justice system in the world, is one you really need to embrace, or at least have someone explain to you using peas and lollypop sticks (or whatever you have to hand).
 
Put him on ignore, agricola. The thread will be ruined if we don't

I have noone on my ignore list, and I am not going to pop my cherry for him.

Besides, he only differs from the likes of Zachor and JC2 in terms of his astonishing mindlessness.
 
I'm not a pacifist.

Violence is sometimes (sadly) necessary and is sometimes justified.

Those occasions include when a people are being ethnically cleansed and held under siege and attacked at will.

I'll no more condemn Palestinian violence than I would have condemned Jewish partisans actions against the Wehrmacht in WW2, or a black slave revolt against their masters.

Does that mean you support Hamas's rocket attacks on southern Israel?
 
Does that mean you support Hamas's rocket attacks on southern Israel?

It hasn't only been the Hamas, has it? Hamas rockets did not begin until after they declared the ceasefire over, after trying to broker better terms for the ceasefire (end to economic seige).

There are few professors for whose lectures the riot police have to be called in. It happened to the Brit Ted Honderich after the publication of After the Terror in September 2002. The book not only held the West jointly responsible for the attacks of 9/11, it also defended the Palestinian people’s moral right to terrorism. “Anti-Semitism,” cried the director of a German institute for the Holocaust, and all of a sudden the philosopher, Honderich, to his great bewilderment, found himself in the middle of a media storm.

There were no riot police to be seen at the lecture given by Ted Honderich, by invitation from the research group Political Philosophy, on Tuesday evening at the Catholic University of Brussels. It’s Valentine's Day and Honderich, as tall as a tree and despite his 73 years conspicuously combative, philosophises about ‘democratic violence’ and the suicide terrorist in all of us. There is a great deal of critique from the audience. “Children are sacred,” says the Leuven philosopher, Herman De Dijn. “There’s no single conception of morality that can justify the killing of innocent people.”

“And yet, every day there are children who are killed, not just by the terrorists but by us as well,” Homberich later argues during our interview. “Pure souls swear by an absolute morality that is blind to reality. We are quite rightly concerned about the three thousand American dead during the attacks of 11 September 2001, but on the same day 25 000 people worldwide died of starvation. Condemning terrorism is all too easy. You have to dare to see the causes and our own involvement. Even Mahatma Gandhi, the champion of passivity, thought that violent resistance was preferable to accepting an unjust fate.”
http://www.ucl.ac.uk/~uctytho/BrusselsInterviewTranslated.html
 
Does that mean you support Hamas's rocket attacks on southern Israel?

Where do you and others get this idea that it's just Hamas operating in Gaza? There may have been an Israeli-inspired civil war a couple of years ago but the fight includes all Palestinians, not just Hamas and its supporters. The PFLP and the Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigade are currently operating there.

You've swallowed all the Israeli lies good and proper.
 
Does that mean you support Hamas's rocket attacks on southern Israel?
I don't think they do much good, but I won't condemn a population of refugees that is held under siege and attacked at will for responding to the awful situation they find themselves in.

I wouldn't have condemned the jews of Warsaw for firing rockets either if they had had them. Sadly all they had was a few old revolvers.

No siege, no blockade, no Israeli raids = no rockets
 
Does that mean you support Hamas's rocket attacks on southern Israel?

Let me show you this heavily snipped article by Ted Honderich:
The Question of a Palestinian Moral Right

You can make terrorism wrong by definition, as you can make profiting or anything else wrong by definition. It gets you nowhere. To advance in argument, you will now have to show, say, that what the Palestinians are engaging in really is terrorism as you have defined it. You are in exactly the same situation of argument as when you define terrorism in some way that does not beg the question in advance, and then consider whether some of it is wrong.

Terrorism as more ordinarily defined may of course also be other things. It may be self-defence, resistance, resistance to ethnic cleansing, the struggle of a people for liberation, the struggle of a people for their very existence as a people.

<snip>

The Ordinariness of the Terrible and Horrible Answer

The terrible and horrible answer about a Palestinian moral right is in an important way not unusual at all. The counterpart answer about neo-Zionist killing is openly or covertly given by neo-Zionists, daily.

Also, glance away for a moment to items in an overflowing history of us all. The terror-bombing of Germany in World War Two, intended exactly as much to kill civilians as to defeat Hitler, was justified by we British and our leaders. So too with the genocide that went with the growth of the United States of America. So too with the murdering of British captives by the Jewish terrorists who were serving the justified cause of the founding of the state of Israel after the Holocaust.

The Truth of the Answer

There is another kind of fact, plainer truth, that enters into the first two kinds. It is historical, about a people and the usurpation of their freedom and power and hence other great goods.

In the last quarter of the 19th Century, there were about 50 times as many Palestinians as Jews in Palestine. After World War Two, when the United Nations rightly and unjustly resolved to make a homeland for the Jews out of one part of Palestine, there were in fact equal numbers of Jews and Palestinians in that part. There were 80 times as many Palestinians as Jews in the other part. There is now a Jewish state violating the remaining homeland of the remaining Palestinians.

Asserting the Answer

Do you now say that even if the moral right of the Palestinians to their terrorism is or were true, there are or would be reasons for not asserting it? Do you say no one thinks all truths must be uttered?

It seems to me that this truth, unlike some others, calls out to be uttered. It calls out to be uttered in proper language and with proper passion. One reason has to do with another fact of human nature and history, lesser than those mentioned earlier but of great importance.

In such a conflict as the one in Palestine, there is a primary question of who and what is right, which of course is inescapable, and with which we have been concerned. There are also conventional inclinations about the conflict. In a word, they are inclinations to go along with what is more official, legitimated, or recognized. They include the inclination to go along with a democracy, a state, a power. Or indeed a superpower.

If you do not stand up openly for the justice of the Palestinian cause, you give encouragement to the secondary inclinations. In fact it is dishonourable to allow oneself to be, or to encourage others to be, in the grip of the categories of the official and the like. The gas chambers were official. Hitler was elected.

full article:http://www.counterpunch.org/honderich10252003.html
 
I'm just going by the news reports (from various worldwide news sources) that state the rockets are fired by Hamas. Who is firing them isn't really the point though, I was just wondering whether Spion refusing to condemn the rockets meant s/he supported them.

I agree that the Palestinians have the right to respond to Israeli aggression, the same as anyone else. I don't agree with firing rockets indiscriminately at civilians though. I also think it's incredibly counterproductive. Yes, the IDF is killing civilians too, and in much larger numbers, but that doesn't justify the rocket attacks (whoever is behind them).
 
I'm just going by the news reports (from various worldwide news sources) that state the rockets are fired by Hamas. Who is firing them isn't really the point though, I was just wondering whether Spion refusing to condemn the rockets meant s/he supported them.

I agree that the Palestinians have the right to respond to Israeli aggression, the same as anyone else. I don't agree with firing rockets indiscriminately at civilians though. I also think it's incredibly counterproductive. Yes, the IDF is killing civilians too, and in much larger numbers, but that doesn't justify the rocket attacks (whoever is behind them).

Does being forced into a refugee camp for 61 years without any justice/return/restitution/compensation justify rocket attacks against those who did the forcing out and now live in your home/took your land/denied you justice/execute without trial/crush your economy/etc ?
 
I'm just going by the news reports (from various worldwide news sources) that state the rockets are fired by Hamas. Who is firing them isn't really the point though, I was just wondering whether Spion refusing to condemn the rockets meant s/he supported them.

I agree that the Palestinians have the right to respond to Israeli aggression, the same as anyone else. I don't agree with firing rockets indiscriminately at civilians though. I also think it's incredibly counterproductive. Yes, the IDF is killing civilians too, and in much larger numbers, but that doesn't justify the rocket attacks (whoever is behind them).

Mainstream news providers are notoriously lazy when it comes to complicated conflicts. It is far easier for them to adopt the Israeli line that it is all Hamas.
 
Does being forced into a refugee camp for 61 years without any justice/return/restitution/compensation justify rocket attacks against those who did the forcing out and now live in your home/took your land/denied you justice/execute without trial/crush your economy/etc ?

So all Israelis are fair game, because of the actions of their government/army?
 
So all Israelis are fair game, because of the actions of their government/army?
I'll quote this again
says the Leuven philosopher, Herman De Dijn. “There’s no single conception of morality that can justify the killing of innocent people.”

“And yet, every day there are children who are killed, not just by the terrorists but by us as well,” Homberich later argues during our interview. “Pure souls swear by an absolute morality that is blind to reality. We are quite rightly concerned about the three thousand American dead during the attacks of 11 September 2001, but on the same day 25 000 people worldwide died of starvation. Condemning terrorism is all too easy. You have to dare to see the causes and our own involvement. Even Mahatma Gandhi, the champion of passivity, thought that violent resistance was preferable to accepting an unjust fate.”
http://www.ucl.ac.uk/~uctytho/BrusselsInterviewTranslated.html

we are denied the luxury of absolute moral judgement here. all we can do here as bystanders is try to understand and see the causes and attempt to govern our own involvement
 
No, but if you apply the same logic that the IDF applies to the Palestinians then they are.

The main difference being the IDF know their bombs and missiles arer going to blow people to pieces, the Qassams are fired in hope...
 
The main difference being the IDF know their bombs and missiles arer going to blow people to pieces, the Qassams are fired in hope...

Which is of course what makes it worse.

In fact, if you want to be naive you could just assume that Hamas, Islamic Jihad and Fatah are aiming for Israeli military positions, but do not have the necessary accuracy to do so. Lets not forget that the Qassam and mortars are - short of suicidal attacks on the fortified border positions - the only game in town as far as resistance goes.
 
No, but if you apply the same logic that the IDF applies to the Palestinians then they are.

But aren't you condemning Israel for using that logic?

The point that STFC has now taken up is the point I was making earlier, which made me the subject of much name calling and the suggestion that I should be put on ignore,...because apparently its a tough question no one likes to see asked.

Does Spion support the murder of innocent israelis, does anyone else in this thread support it.

It is a simple question considering Spion will not condemn such actions, the automatic thought is that he must support them, rather then taking that assumption STFC has asked the question outright.

It doesn't matter what else is going on or who said what, or wrote what where or how many Palestinians are murdered by the IDF. All of that is irrelevent to the question isn't it?

You even suggested earlier that no one in this thread was saying that...but truth be told that isn't an accurate statement.

Now it has been asked, even more bluntly then I asked it, and we are still awaiting a definitive answer.

I am sure people will be along to call STFC a cunt and other names shortly.
 
I'll quote this again

we are denied the luxury of absolute moral judgement here. all we can do here as bystanders is try to understand and see the causes and attempt to govern our own involvement

I missed that before. Interesting reading, and I agree with some of what he says.

"And with Hamas’s victory in the elections, we’re headed for even more confrontation."

He wasn't wrong there.
 
I missed that before. Interesting reading, and I agree with some of what he says.

"And with Hamas’s victory in the elections, we’re headed for even more confrontation."

He wasn't wrong there.

You've asked some thought provoking questions in an honourable manner, and i value your contributions and perspective.

And no, he wasn't wrong about the trajectory of confrontation following the Hamas' election
 
Which is of course what makes it worse.

Yes it does. Fish in a barrel springs to mind.

In fact, if you want to be naive you could just assume that Hamas, Islamic Jihad and Fatah are aiming for Israeli military positions, but do not have the necessary accuracy to do so. Lets not forget that the Qassam and mortars are - short of suicidal attacks on the fortified border positions - the only game in town as far as resistance goes.

That would be extremely naive. I think for whoever is firing the rockets and mortars, any Israeli will do.
 
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