Israel, Gaza and the propaganda war

[frogwoman]

Its all that bitches Cheryl's fault, she was the one who started this so called 'propaganda war' with her lies in the sunday papers when he left her for a pint of cider. Now Israel are involved we'll hopefully see the truth, the REAL truth come out. I personally cant wait.

 

[nino_savatte]

The reporter on ITN said it last night at about 10pm. Forget his name....

You're right, it was Julian Manyon and not Bowen.

 

[Barking_Mad]

.....

"Civilization is based on a clearly defined and widely accepted yet often unarticulated hierarchy. Violence done by those higher on the hierarchy to those lower is nearly always invisible, that is, unnoticed. When it is noticed, it is fully rationalized. Violence done by those lower on the hierarchy to those higher is unthinkable, and when it does occur is regarded with shock, horror, and the fetishization of the victims".

 

[Barking_Mad]

You're right, it was Julian Manyon and not Bowen.

That's the bloke!

 

[ViolentPanda]

Sorry, I didn't mean to imply thousands every day. But, still thousands, though.

What do they think that will happen if they carry on and on doing this?

I *know* you can endlessly go back and further back and say "ah, but in 1948, the Jews did ............." and in 1967 this happened, and in 19xx that happened.

But in the last month the number of rockets fired from Gaza has increased, in spite of a supposed ceasefire.

AFTER the state of Israel's armed forces had taken actions that broke the ceasefire.
It's important to be clear on that point.

What did they think israel would do, if they provoked them enough and for long enough?

Giles..

They knew that the state of Israel, given the ideological imperatives of it's political class, would attack whether provocation took place or not. If not the current excuse, then another would have been found.

 

[Dravinian]

AFTER the state of Israel's armed forces had taken actions that broke the ceasefire.
It's important to be clear on that point.

AFTER Militants were engaged in actions that broke the ceasefire.

It's important to be clear on that point.

Did you bother to actually read any of those reports beyond the words reproduced here?

A five-month truce between Israel and the Islamist rulers of the Gaza Strip was foundering yesterday after Israeli special forces entered the besieged territory and fought.......Hamas militants, leaving six Palestinian fighters dead and four Israeli soldiers wounded.

The Israeli military described the operation as a “pinpoint” raid to destroy a 250-metre tunnel that it said the hardline Palestinian movement was digging under the border to try to kidnap an Israeli soldier – as it did in the summer of 2006. ”

Chicken and Egg.

Regardless of who went first and who did what, why can't you people accept that the killing of innocents by ANYONE is wrong? Whether that be by rocket fire from Gaza or by Air Strikes by Israel?

 

[agricola]

AFTER Militants were engaged in actions that broke the ceasefire.

It's important to be clear on that point.

Did you bother to actually read any of those reports beyond the words reproduced here?

A five-month truce between Israel and the Islamist rulers of the Gaza Strip was foundering yesterday after Israeli special forces entered the besieged territory and fought.......Hamas militants, leaving six Palestinian fighters dead and four Israeli soldiers wounded.

The Israeli military described the operation as a “pinpoint” raid to destroy a 250-metre tunnel that it said the hardline Palestinian movement was digging under the border to try to kidnap an Israeli soldier – as it did in the summer of 2006. ”

Chicken and Egg.

Regardless of who went first and who did what, why can't you people accept that the killing of innocents by ANYONE is wrong? Whether that be by rocket fire from Gaza or by Air Strikes by Israel?

i) the source for that information is the IDF - the same source that is claiming that Hamas were firing from the school they shelled (which both Hamas and the UN strongly dispute), and which was yesterday claiming that Hamas had booby-trapped the school, which had caused the casualties;
ii) in any case, they entered the Strip in order to attack Hamas, not fought them as they emerged from the tunnel;
iii) they had also breached the ceasefire repeatedly by continuing the blockade;
iv) noone here to my knowledge has said the killing of innocent Israelis by rocket fire is anything other than wrong. The problem is that certain persons have sought to claim that the deaths are a justification for the Israeli action, which is deeply wrong.

 

[claphamboy]

AFTER Militants were engaged in actions that broke the ceasefire.

It's important to be clear on that point.

Did you bother to actually read any of those reports beyond the words reproduced here?

A five-month truce between Israel and the Islamist rulers of the Gaza Strip was foundering yesterday after Israeli special forces entered the besieged territory and fought.......Hamas militants, leaving six Palestinian fighters dead and four Israeli soldiers wounded.

The Israeli military described the operation as a “pinpoint” raid to destroy a 250-metre tunnel that it said the hardline Palestinian movement was digging under the border to try to kidnap an Israeli soldier – as it did in the summer of 2006. ”

Chicken and Egg.

Israel never even complied with the ceasefire in the first place, because they refused to lift the blockade, which had been part of the agreement.

Do try to keep up Drav, or fuck off.

Regardless of who went first and who did what, why can't you people accept that the killing of innocents by ANYONE is wrong? Whether that be by rocket fire from Gaza or by Air Strikes by Israel?

And, of course, 11 Israelis killed by rocket fire in 3 years justifies the IDF killing 3,000+ Palestinians in Gaza, in the same period.

Moron.

 

[nino_savatte]

That's the bloke!

I was surfing between The Ten O'Clock News and News at Ten, hence the confusion.

 

[Dravinian]

iv) noone here to my knowledge has said the killing of innocent Israelis by rocket fire is anything other than wrong. The problem is that certain persons have sought to claim that the deaths are a justification for the Israeli action, which is deeply wrong.

When I asked earlier if those people would condem those actions a I had condemed israels actions.

They couldn't bring themselves to do it.

Sure they have not actively said that the killing of innocents is ok, but if all you ever do is excuse the killing of innocents by one group, then surely it is the same thing?

 

[ViolentPanda]

AFTER Militants were engaged in actions that broke the ceasefire.

It's important to be clear on that point.

Did you bother to actually read any of those reports beyond the words reproduced here?

A five-month truce between Israel and the Islamist rulers of the Gaza Strip was foundering yesterday after Israeli special forces entered the besieged territory and fought.......Hamas militants, leaving six Palestinian fighters dead and four Israeli soldiers wounded.

The Israeli military described the operation as a “pinpoint” raid to destroy a 250-metre tunnel that it said the hardline Palestinian movement was digging under the border to try to kidnap an Israeli soldier – as it did in the summer of 2006. ”

I'm supposed to pay attention a biased source, am I?
By the way, as former military personnel will tell you, there's no such thing as a "pinpoint raid". That's PR-speak for "nothing went too wrong".

Chicken and Egg.

Regardless of who went first and who did what, why can't you people accept that the killing of innocents by ANYONE is wrong? Whether that be by rocket fire from Gaza or by Air Strikes by Israel?

What, you mean like I've already done on several threads on this forum?

 

[claphamboy]

When I asked earlier if those people would condem those actions a I had condemed israels actions.

They couldn't bring themselves to do it.

Sure they have not actively said that the killing of innocents is ok, but if all you ever do is excuse the killing of innocents by one group, then surely it is the same thing?

I condemn killing innocents by any group, but 11 Israelis killed by rocket fire in 3 years DOES NOT justifies the IDF killing 3,000+ Palestinians in Gaza, in the same period.

So, therefore, I condemn Israel the most.

ETA: Shit, I forgot I appear to be on your 'ever-growing ignore list' of those that you are too stupid to debate with.

(((stupid Drav)))

 

[laptop]

So Dravinian is looking for some kind of equivalence? To soften the pain of needing to condemn his (beloved?) state of Israel by demanding that those who support freedom and respect for international law, for Palestinians as for others, condemn some Palestinians? To claim some sort of moral equivalence?

Perhaps doing it graphically is the answer.


I condemn home-made rockets / I condemn home-made rockets / I condemn home-made rockets / I condemn home-made rockets / I condemn the state of Israel / I condemn the state of Israel / I condemn the state of Israel / I condemn the state of Israel / I condemn the state of Israel / I condemn the state of Israel / I condemn the state of Israel / I condemn the state of Israel / I condemn the state of Israel / I condemn the state of Israel / I condemn the state of Israel / I condemn the state of Israel / I condemn the state of Israel / I condemn the state of Israel / I condemn the state of Israel / I condemn the state of Israel / I condemn the state of Israel / I condemn the state of Israel / I condemn the state of Israel / I condemn the state of Israel / I condemn the state of Israel / I condemn the state of Israel / I condemn the state of Israel / I condemn the state of Israel / I condemn the state of Israel / I condemn the state of Israel / I condemn the state of Israel / I condemn the state of Israel / I condemn the state of Israel / I condemn the state of Israel / I condemn the state of Israel / I condemn the state of Israel / I condemn the state of Israel / I condemn the state of Israel / I condemn the state of Israel / I condemn the state of Israel / I condemn the state of Israel / I condemn the state of Israel / I condemn the state of Israel / I condemn the state of Israel / I condemn the state of Israel / I condemn the state of Israel / I condemn the state of Israel / I condemn the state of Israel / I condemn the state of Israel / I condemn the state of Israel / I condemn the state of Israel / I condemn the state of Israel / I condemn the state of Israel / I condemn the state of Israel / I condemn the state of Israel / I condemn the state of Israel / I condemn the state of Israel / I condemn the state of Israel / I condemn the state of Israel / I condemn the state of Israel / I condemn the state of Israel / I condemn the state of Israel / I condemn the state of 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continues...

 

[laptop]

I condemn the state of Israel / I condemn the state of Israel / I condemn the state of Israel / I condemn the state of Israel / I condemn the state of Israel / I condemn the state of Israel / I condemn the state of Israel / I condemn the state of Israel / I condemn the state of Israel / I condemn the state of Israel / I condemn the state of Israel / I condemn the state of Israel / I condemn the state of Israel / I condemn the state of Israel / I condemn the state of Israel / I condemn the state of Israel / I condemn the state of Israel / I condemn the state of Israel / I condemn the state of Israel / I condemn the state of Israel / I condemn the state of Israel / I condemn the state of Israel / I condemn the state of Israel / I condemn the state of Israel / I condemn the state of Israel / I condemn the state of Israel / I condemn the state of Israel / I condemn the state of Israel / I condemn the state of Israel / I condemn the state of Israel / I condemn the state of Israel / I 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state of Israel / I condemn the state of Israel / I condemn the state of Israel / I condemn the state of Israel / I condemn the state of Israel / I condemn the state of Israel / I condemn the state of Israel / I condemn the state of Israel / I condemn the state of Israel / I condemn the state of Israel / I condemn the state of Israel / I condemn the state of Israel / I condemn the state of Israel / I condemn the state of Israel / I condemn the state of Israel / I condemn the state of Israel / I condemn the state of Israel / I condemn the state of Israel / I condemn the state of Israel / I condemn the state of Israel / I condemn the state of Israel / I condemn the state of Israel / I condemn the state of Israel / I condemn the state of Israel / I condemn the state of Israel / I condemn the state of Israel / I condemn the state of Israel / I condemn the state of Israel / I condemn the state of Israel / I condemn the state of Israel / I condemn the state of Israel / I condemn the state of 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continues

 

[laptop]

I condemn the state of Israel / I condemn the state of Israel / I condemn the state of Israel / I condemn the state of Israel / I condemn the state of Israel / I condemn the state of Israel / I condemn the state of Israel / I condemn the state of Israel / I condemn the state of Israel / I condemn the state of Israel / I condemn the state of Israel / I condemn the state of Israel / I condemn the state of Israel / I condemn the state of Israel / I condemn the state of Israel / I condemn the state of Israel / I condemn the state of Israel / I condemn the state of Israel / I condemn the state of Israel / I condemn the state of Israel / I condemn the state of Israel / I condemn the state of Israel / I condemn the state of Israel / I condemn the state of Israel / I condemn the state of Israel / I condemn the state of Israel / I condemn the state of Israel / I condemn the state of Israel / I condemn the state of Israel / I condemn the state of Israel / I condemn the state of Israel / I condemn the state of Israel / I condemn the state of Israel / I condemn the state of Israel / I condemn the state of Israel / I condemn the state of Israel / I condemn the state of Israel / I condemn the state of Israel / I condemn the state of Israel / I condemn the state of Israel / I condemn the state of Israel / I condemn the state of Israel / I condemn the state of Israel / I condemn the state of Israel / I condemn the state of Israel / I condemn the state of Israel / I condemn the state of Israel / I condemn the state of Israel / I condemn the state of Israel / I condemn the state of Israel / I condemn the state of Israel / I condemn the state of Israel / I condemn the state of Israel / I condemn the state of Israel / I condemn the state of Israel / I condemn the state of Israel / I condemn the state of Israel / I condemn the state of Israel / I condemn the state of Israel / I condemn the state of Israel / I condemn the state of Israel / I condemn the state of Israel.

(This morning's reported death toll since late December only: more condemnation follows )

Happy now?

Every one of those condemnations had a name and a grieving family, btw.

 

[agricola]

When I asked earlier if those people would condem those actions a I had condemed israels actions.

They couldn't bring themselves to do it.

Sure they have not actively said that the killing of innocents is ok, but if all you ever do is excuse the killing of innocents by one group, then surely it is the same thing?

Thats nonsense. In the last 3 years the rockets have killed 11 people in Israel, which is of course deeply wrong and terrible events for the families and friends of the dead. However since that time (as Claphamboy says, apparently you have him on ignore) the IDF have killed 3000 people in Gaza.

People tend to focus on the latter figure, especially at a time where the IDF are busily engaged in getting the number even higher. The two, while both bad, are not equivalent (especially when one considers that the rocket fire has usually spiked after Israeli actions).

 

[Dravinian]

Thats nonsense. In the last 3 years the rockets have killed 11 people in Israel, which is of course deeply wrong and terrible events for the families and friends of the dead. However since that time (as Claphamboy says, apparently you have him on ignore) the IDF have killed 3000 people in Gaza.

People tend to focus on the latter figure, especially at a time where the IDF are busily engaged in getting the number even higher. The two, while both bad, are not equivalent (especially when one considers that the rocket fire has usually spiked after Israeli actions).

Is 11 innocent dead not 11 innocent dead?

or is it as I said about Spion earlier.

it isn't the murder you are against, it is just that Israel is better at it?

If palestine was better at it, we would all be sitting here talking about the propoganda of Hamas?

Does that really seem like a sensible position to hold?

Surely the sensible position is to condemn both sides?

 

[Dravinian]

Also talking about Equivalence like that matters?

Condemning people is a matter of a degree....it is a binary fact...you either condemn it or you don't.

There are not degrees in this, you either do or you don't.

There is no reason to have equivalence involved at all in the question of whether you condemn their actions.

And while Laptop can waste bandwitdh, he wasn't the one who when presented with the option to condemn the rocket attacks started talking about what Israel had done....as if somehow to present the case that they deserved those rocket attacks.

 

[agricola]

Is 11 innocent dead not 11 innocent dead?

or is it as I said about Spion earlier.

it isn't the murder you are against, it is just that Israel is better at it?

If palestine was better at it, we would all be sitting here talking about the propoganda of Hamas?

Does that really seem like a sensible position to hold?

Surely the sensible position is to condemn both sides?

Yes, the two sides should be condemned, but not equally - to do so would be both mindless and would have the effect of actually supporting the more guilty of the parties. 11 deaths are not the same as 3000+ deaths and should not attract the same oppobrium.

Nor is the situation of the Palestinians and the Israelis comparable. The Palestinians are subject to summary justice from the occupier, have been imprisoned for the best part of sixty years in refugee camps and have UNSC resolutions in their favour. The Israelis have a huge military advantage, enjoy potentially unlimited military support from the US and enjoy near total diplomatic and legal immunity irrespective of their actions, thanks again to US support. The Israelis also claim to be a free society.

 

[Dravinian]

Yes, the two sides should be condemned, but not equally - to do so would be both mindless and would have the effect of actually supporting the more guilty of the parties. 11 deaths are not the same as 3000+ deaths and should not attract the same oppobrium.

Nor is the situation of the Palestinians and the Israelis comparable.

When presented with teh chance though Agricola there were those in this very thread who would NOT condemn Palestine at all.

You can't now change it to the amount of condemnation.

There is a bias here, it is quite clear and plain, that in this thread at the very least Palestine appears to do no wrong, and Israel are some evil zionist murderers.

Now you can try and change the argument to suit yourself...but lets look at what was said....

Israel treat Palestine very badly, it is utterly wrong, deserves international condemnation and really something should be done.


Now lets see if any of you fuckers can say the same about Palestine and its treatment of Israel and refusal to accept that it should even exist.

Could any of those posters bring themselves to admit it, to say what Palestine did was wrong?

No agricola they didn't.

Some may have come out of the woodwork now to say it, 3 and a half pages later by my settings....but at the time the person I was talking to wouldn't do it, and that person was the one leading the charge against Israel.

So if you can't see the bias in this thread, then you are deliberately ignoring it.

 

[agricola]

When presented with teh chance though Agricola there were those in this very thread who would NOT condemn Palestine at all.

You can't now change it to the amount of condemnation.

There is a bias here, it is quite clear and plain, that in this thread at the very least Palestine appears to do no wrong, and Israel are some evil zionist murderers.

Now you can try and change the argument to suit yourself...but lets look at what was said....

Israel treat Palestine very badly, it is utterly wrong, deserves international condemnation and really something should be done.


Now lets see if any of you fuckers can say the same about Palestine and its treatment of Israel and refusal to accept that it should even exist.

Could any of those posters bring themselves to admit it, to say what Palestine did was wrong?

No agricola they didn't.

Some may have come out of the woodwork now to say it, 3 and a half pages later by my settings....but at the time the person I was talking to wouldn't do it, and that person was the one leading the charge against Israel.

So if you can't see the bias in this thread, then you are deliberately ignoring it.

You are being your usual nonsensical self, inventing counter-arguments in an attempt to make your own views appear correct. Noone on this thread (or to my mind any of the other threads) have suggested that Hamas killing innocent civilians is justified.

There is a bias here, which exists because a nation which enjoys huge military superiority is engaged in bombing / shelling the most densely populated prison complex in the world, seemingly without any particular care as to the civilian casualties that result. Had Hamas managed to kill 700 Israelis in two weeks fighting I am sure similar criticism would be emanating from this forum. The fact is though that they havent, and the IDF has.

 

[audiotech]

Palestine as an entity doesn't treat Israel badly though, it is not allowed to exist.

Now some Palestinian groups target Israeli civilians, which everyone on here condemns, but this slaughter of mostly civilians in Gaza, many of them children, by the Israeli state is out on it's own in the level of barbarity taking place.

 

[hipipol]

AFTER Militants were engaged in actions that broke the ceasefire.

It's important to be clear on that point.

Did you bother to actually read any of those reports beyond the words reproduced here?

A five-month truce between Israel and the Islamist rulers of the Gaza Strip was foundering yesterday after Israeli special forces entered the besieged territory and fought.......Hamas militants, leaving six Palestinian fighters dead and four Israeli soldiers wounded.

The Israeli military described the operation as a “pinpoint” raid to destroy a 250-metre tunnel that it said the hardline Palestinian movement was digging under the border to try to kidnap an Israeli soldier – as it did in the summer of 2006. ”

Chicken and Egg.

Regardless of who went first and who did what, why can't you people accept that the killing of innocents by ANYONE is wrong? Whether that be by rocket fire from Gaza or by Air Strikes by Israel?

Aint you finished eating that pile of lies from you last post yet, you arse wipe?

 

[Spion]

Now lets see if any of you fuckers can say the same about Palestine and its treatment of Israel and refusal to accept that it should even exist

I won't condemn refugees who have been ethnically cleansed from their land and homes and who have been driven into a ghetto for fighting against a state that is trying to cow them into accepting that.

I want the Gazans to defeat the IDF invaders of Gaza and I want justice for Palestinians in a settlement that gives equal rights for all in the territory of historic Palestine

 

[tangentlama]

Lots of lies exposed in this latest piece from Robert Fisk, dated Wednesday 7 January 2009
http://www.independent.co.uk/opinio...ate-the-west-so-much-we-will-ask-1230046.html

 

[Dravinian]

You are being your usual nonsensical self.........

I won't condemn.....

Have a good look Agricola and tell me about equivalence, about levels of condemnation.

Then remember what it is actually about, it is about condemning people who murder innocents.

There are those here that won't do that, because of their incredible bias, but you keep pretending it ain't so and that i am the one being non-sensical.

 

[Bernie Gunther]

He sort of hits the nail on the head doesn't he?

I've reported the excuses the Israeli army has served up in the past for these outrages. Since they may well be reheated in the coming hours, here are some of them: that the Palestinians killed their own refugees, that the Palestinians dug up bodies from cemeteries and planted them in the ruins, that ultimately the Palestinians are to blame because they supported an armed faction, or because armed Palestinians deliberately used the innocent refugees as cover.

The Sabra and Chatila massacre was committed by Israel's right-wing Lebanese Phalangist allies while Israeli troops, as Israel's own commission of inquiry revealed, watched for 48 hours and did nothing. When Israel was blamed, Menachem Begin's government accused the world of a blood libel. After Israeli artillery had fired shells into the UN base at Qana in 1996, the Israelis claimed that Hizbollah gunmen were also sheltering in the base. It was a lie. The more than 1,000 dead of 2006 – a war started when Hizbollah captured two Israeli soldiers on the border – were simply dismissed as the responsibility of the Hizbollah. Israel claimed the bodies of children killed in a second Qana massacre may have been taken from a graveyard. It was another lie. The Marwahin massacre was never excused. The people of the village were ordered to flee, obeyed Israeli orders and were then attacked by an Israeli gunship. The refugees took their children and stood them around the truck in which they were travelling so that Israeli pilots would see they were innocents. Then the Israeli helicopter mowed them down at close range. Only two survived, by playing dead. Israel didn't even apologise.

Twelve years earlier, another Israeli helicopter attacked an ambulance carrying civilians from a neighbouring village – again after they were ordered to leave by Israel – and killed three children and two women. The Israelis claimed that a Hizbollah fighter was in the ambulance. It was untrue. I covered all these atrocities, I investigated them all, talked to the survivors. So did a number of my colleagues. Our fate, of course, was that most slanderous of libels: we were accused of being anti-Semitic.

And I write the following without the slightest doubt: we'll hear all these scandalous fabrications again. We'll have the Hamas-to-blame lie – heaven knows, there is enough to blame them for without adding this crime – and we may well have the bodies-from-the-cemetery lie and we'll almost certainly have the Hamas-was-in-the-UN-school lie and we will very definitely have the anti-Semitism lie. And our leaders will huff and puff and remind the world that Hamas originally broke the ceasefire. It didn't. Israel broke it, first on 4 November when its bombardment killed six Palestinians in Gaza and again on 17 November when another bombardment killed four more Palestinians.

Yes, Israelis deserve security. Twenty Israelis dead in 10 years around Gaza is a grim figure indeed. But 600 Palestinians dead in just over a week, thousands over the years since 1948 – when the Israeli massacre at Deir Yassin helped to kick-start the flight of Palestinians from that part of Palestine that was to become Israel – is on a quite different scale. This recalls not a normal Middle East bloodletting but an atrocity on the level of the Balkan wars of the 1990s.

source

 

[tangentlama]

He sort of hits the nail on the head doesn't he?

source

Yes. Yes, he does.

 

[tangentlama]

From Ha'aretz: Defence Minister Mofaz to Chief of Staff Ya'alon (IDF command)

"We can't rule out the possibility that this is a stretcher".

http://lawrenceofcyberia.blogs.com/news/2009/01/camera-never-lies-unless-its-an-idf-camera.html

 

[agricola]

Have a good look Agricola and tell me about equivalence, about levels of condemnation.

Then remember what it is actually about, it is about condemning people who murder innocents.

There are those here that won't do that, because of their incredible bias, but you keep pretending it ain't so and that i am the one being non-sensical.

i) I repeat - noone here or on any of the other threads to my knowledge has done anything other than state the deaths of innocent israeli civilians are a crime or are a bad thing;
ii) demanding that 8 deaths are treated the same as 700 is not only nonsensical, it hugely devalues the 700;
iii) your cretinry has been firmly established long before this thread, though sadly I was under the happy impression you had left.