Israel, Gaza and the propaganda war

[agricola]

As soon as Paxman said "and later we'll be speaking to Mark Regev" I knew he'd take that line.

I do love the way these people get absolutely no questioning. Hamas says there were no militants there. The UN says there were no militants there. Journalists cannot confirm that there were no militants there because the Israelis refuse to let them in.

 

[Giles]

And how do you suggest they "avoid this"?

Here's one way: don't fire thousands of unguided rockets into Israel every day for years.

Giles..

 

[nino_savatte]

Here's one way: don't fire thousands of unguided rockets into Israel every day for years.

Giles..

You appear to have missed something but I can't be arsed to draw you a picture.

 

[Spion]

Here's one way: don't fire thousands of unguided rockets into Israel every day for years.

Giles..

How about don't ethnically cleanse people, drive them into a tiny strip of land, besiege them, then shoot and bomb them when they refuse to die on their knees?

More than 1m of the Gaza population are REFUGEES. Do you understand what that means?

 

[TomUS]

So Israel still isn't allowing foreign journalists into Gaza...

Yea, and it's hurting them. It allows Hamas, which certainly doesn't allow press freedom, to control the images coming out. No shots of Hamas fighters or rocket teams......just civilian casualties. I think public opinion in the US is turning against this Israeli invasion.

The CNN reporters are being kept a couple miles from the border & bitching about it on camera. They sometimes call their contacts in Gaza and broadcast a description from them, which doesn't help the Israeli image either.

Israel is shooting itself in the foot by doing this.

 

[nino_savatte]

Yea, and it's hurting them. It allows Hamas, which certainly doesn't allow press freedom, to control the images coming out. No shots of Hamas fighters or rocket teams......just civilian casualties. I think public opinion in the US is turning against this Israeli invasion.

The CNN reporters are being kept a couple miles from the border & bitching about it on camera. They sometimes call their contacts in Gaza and broadcast a description from them, which doesn't help the Israeli image either.

Israel is shooting itself in the foot by doing this.

Last night a BBC reporter, Jeremy Bowen, I think, complained bitterly that each time he tried to get access or get through the cordon, he was met by "IDF spin doctors".

 

[agricola]

Yea, and it's hurting them. It allows Hamas, which certainly doesn't allow press freedom, to control the images coming out. No shots of Hamas fighters or rocket teams......just civilian casualties. I think public opinion in the US is turning against this Israeli invasion.

The CNN reporters are being kept a couple miles from the border & bitching about it on camera. They sometimes call their contacts in Gaza and broadcast a description from them, which doesn't help the Israeli image either.

Israel is shooting itself in the foot by doing this.

Hamas release enough footage of their rocket teams and boast how many rockets they have managed to fire off - I fail to see what independent journalists would demonstrate by "discovering" that Hamas are firing rockets.

I rather think Israel does not want independent journalists "discovering" some of the facts on the ground. One imagines even with the biases amongst the US and European networks it would be very difficult to present a "balanced" (ie: equal time to both sides, one of the most idiotic of current media practices) view of events.

 

[claphamboy]

Here's one way: don't fire thousands of unguided rockets into Israel every day for years.

Giles..

Where did you get 'thousands of rockets every day' from?

Even the Israelis are not dumb-arsed enough to make such claims, so how about cutting out the bullshit?

Interesting article here on how Israel is losing the propaganda war:

Israel licks its wounds in the Gaza propaganda war

JERUSALEM - Israel has taken a battering in the global propaganda battle over its war with Hamas, despite deploying all the latest weaponry from Youtube videos to Twitter blogs and an overworked spokeswoman, experts said.

....

Governments worldwide have slammed the Israeli military onslaught on the Gaza Strip, with UN Secretary General Ban Ki-moon condemning attacks near UN schools that killed dozens and foreign media angry at being kept out of the Palestinian territory.

European Union External Relations Commissioner Benita Ferrero-Waldner told President Shimon Peres in a meeting on Tuesday that "Israel's image is being destroyed" by its refusal to heed appeals for a ceasefire.

....

The Israelis "are the ones who have a grip on communications," said Dominique Wolton, a specialist on media at France's National Centre for Scientific Research (CNRS) in Paris.

"But Israel will not win the communications battle because whatever Israel's legitimate rights are, the unbalanced use of force and the unleashing of violence by Israel is acting against it.

 

[Barking_Mad]

Here's one way: don't fire thousands of unguided rockets into Israel every day for years.

Giles..

Dear oh dear.

You've bought the narrative hook line and sinker.

Tell you what, instead of giving me your opinion, just copy and paste the words of an IDF spokesperson. It will save time and will save you having to think at all...

 

[Barking_Mad]

Last night a BBC reporter, Jeremy Bowen, I think, complained bitterly that each time he tried to get access or get through the cordon, he was met by "IDF spin doctors".

The reporter on ITN said it last night at about 10pm. Forget his name....

 

[claphamboy]

Here's another interesting article that exposes the propaganda war:

Lunch Exposes pro-Zionist Media Lies over Israeli Atrocities

At a Sunday lunch party yesterday 11 Australians - all highly educated professionals (in law, medicine, teaching, librarianship, academia, accountancy or engineering - gave estimates of the number of Israelis killed by Gaza missiles ranging from 10 to 200,000 (reality: 28 in 8 years).
....
The 11th person (an academic scientist) was able to provide the luncheon party with the latest, authoritative estimate of Israeli deaths from Gaza missiles in the last 8 years of TWENTY EIGHT (28), including 20 deaths from Gaza rockets and 8 further deaths from Gaza mortars. His sources were the latest Mainstream media reports, Israel Ministry of Foreign Affairs data and an updated article on Wikipedia entitled “List of Qassam rockets attacks”.

However cracks are beginning to appear in the façade of pro-Zionist Mainstream media and politician lying about Israeli atrocities in the Middle East. Thus what is arguably Australia’s leading quality newspaper, the Sydney Morning Herald, today (5 January, 2009) reported as follows under the headline “Mission revealed: destroy Hamas”,

“Tel Aviv's early insistence that this massive military exercise was about putting a halt to Palestinian rockets being fired into or near communities in the south of Israel never rang true. Measure it by the number of rockets - 8000-plus over eight years - and indeed it sounds like a genuine existential threat. Consider the toll - 20 Israeli deaths spread over eight years, which is about half the number of deaths in just a month of Israeli traffic accidents - and it all loses its oomph as a casus belli [justification for war]. Israel does not want to deal with Hamas - it wants to annihilate the Islamist movement.”

And from that same article, something for JC2 to consider when using google:

A search today (5 January 2009) for the phrase “Israeli deaths from rockets” on Google yields SIX (6) articles of which only TWO (2) are recent and provide authoritative quantitative estimates (however it must be noted that Google has an appalling record of censoring information critical of genocidal Anglo-American or Zionist imperialism e.g. see “Western Media and Google Censorship: Google Censors Churchill’s Crimes and British Indian Holocaust”). (If you want accurate, uncensored information you would be well advised to do YAHOO searches).

 

[ViolentPanda]

Here's one way: don't fire thousands of unguided rockets into Israel every day for years.

Giles..

Thousands every day, Giles?

You fucking idiot.

 

[claphamboy]

Thousands every day, Giles?

You fucking idiot.

Indeed as you can see in my post above yours - Tel Aviv claims 8,000 in EIGHT YEARS, resulting in 20 dead (plus another 8 from mortars).

That's a average of under 3 a day.

 

[goldenecitrone]

And on the anti-propaganda side of the war:

Oxford historian Avi Shlaim mutters "oy, veh, got to be done", rolls up his sleeves and tells it like it is:




Hardly ever does the Guardian publish anything every word of which is true.

My main quibble is that he didn't find space to point out that the state of Israel's objective is to avoid a peace.

Just read it. Interesting. What's to be done with rogue states? Regime change maybe. I wonder if Obama has any surprises up his sleeve.

 

[claphamboy]

Just read it. Interesting. What's to be done with rogue states? Regime change maybe. I wonder if Obama has any surprises up his sleeve.

Good article isn't - made better in view of who Avi Shlaim is: Oxford professor of international relations Avi Shlaim served in the Israeli army and has never questioned the state's legitimacy. But its merciless assault on Gaza has led him to devastating conclusions.

 

[Giles]

Thousands every day, Giles?

You fucking idiot.

Sorry, I didn't mean to imply thousands every day. But, still thousands, though.

What do they think that will happen if they carry on and on doing this?

I *know* you can endlessly go back and further back and say "ah, but in 1948, the Jews did ............." and in 1967 this happened, and in 19xx that happened.

But in the last month the number of rockets fired from Gaza has increased, in spite of a supposed ceasefire.

What did they think israel would do, if they provoked them enough and for long enough?

Giles..

 

[Barking_Mad]

I *know* you can endlessly go back and further back and say "ah, but in 1948, the Jews did ............." and in 1967 this happened, and in 19xx that happened.

Only you're picking your own starting point, a recent one (ie the firing of rockets) in order to justify Israeli attacks.

But in the last month the number of rockets fired from Gaza has increased, in spite of a supposed ceasefire.

A ceasefire which has been broken by Israel also.

What did they think israel would do, if they provoked them enough and for long enough?

Giles..

Give them back the land they are entitled to live on? I don't believe violence solves anything, but it's ridiculous to claim that all the Palestinians have to do is stop firing rockets.

 

[Spion]

But in the last month the number of rockets fired from Gaza has increased, in spite of a supposed ceasefire.

What did they think israel would do, if they provoked them enough and for long enough?

Ahem

Claim: Israel's invasion of Gaza is a response to unprovoked rocket attacks

Status: FALSE

The Israeli Haaretz, November 5, 2008: “Israel Defense Forces troops yesterday killed a Hamas gunman and wounded two others in the first armed clash in the Gaza Strip since a cease-fire was declared there in June. […] An Israeli army spokeswoman said troops had entered the territory.”


The Israeli Yediot Ahronot, November 5, 2008: “For the first time since the ceasefire took effect in June, IDF forces operated deep in the Gaza Strip Tuesday night.”


The Times (UK), November 5, 2008: “A five-month truce between Israel and the Islamist rulers of the Gaza Strip was foundering yesterday after Israeli special forces entered the besieged territory and fought.”


Amnesty International, November 10, 2008: “A spate of Israeli and Palestinian attacks and counter-attacks in the past 24 hours could spell the end of a five-and-a-half-month ceasefire. […] The killing of six Palestinian militants in Gaza by Israeli forces in a ground incursion and air strikes on 4 November was followed by a barrage of dozens of Palestinian rockets.”


The Guardian, November 5, 2008: “Hamas militants fired more than 35 rockets into Israel today, hours after the Israeli army killed six people inside the Gaza Strip in the first major exchange of fire since a truce took effect in June.”


The Independent, November 5, 2008: “Hamas militants in the Gaza Strip fired more than 35 rockets towards Israel today, the army and the Islamist group said, hours after the Israeli army killed six militants in the coastal territory.”

From http://www.3quarksdaily.com/3quarks...the-6-month-ceasefire-in-israelpalestine.html

 

[8ball]

Give them back the land they are entitled to live on?

Ah, yes. Always gets you your land back, the old 'fire-rockets-at-armed-to-teeth-enemy' gambit, nice one, Centurion . . .

 

[Barking_Mad]

BBC Headline:

Israel briefly halts Gaza attacks

Israel has halted military operations in Gaza for three hours in the first of a daily, planned ceasefire, it says.

An Israeli spokesman said it would allow Gazans to "get medical attention, get supplies... whatever they need".

There were at least two air strikes on Gaza in the first few minutes of the ceasefire, and correspondents say it is unclear if it covers all of Gaza.

Doublethink.

 

[winjer]

What did they think israel would do, if they provoked them enough and for long enough?

What do you think Gaza should do, if Israel provoked them enough and for long enough?

You keep claiming they are doing the wrong thing, but you repeatedly refuse to suggest an alternative strategy. Why is that?

 

[8ball]

BBC Headline:

Israel briefly halts Gaza attacks



Doublethink.

Basically the Israelis have said they need a few minutes to reload, then . . .

 

[Barking_Mad]

Ah, yes. Always gets you your land back, the old 'fire-rockets-at-armed-to-teeth-enemy' gambit, nice one, Centurion . . .

My tongue was slightly in cheek. As Israel seem to think bombing Gaza will get Hamas to stop firing rockets.

 

[8ball]

My tongue was slightly in cheek. As Israel seem to think bombing Gaza will get Hamas to stop firing rockets.

I don't think they really think that, tbh. I think their motives are far more confused.

 

[Barking_Mad]

Basically the Israelis have said they need a few minutes to reload, then . . .

Aye, not far off.

 

[claphamboy]

Ah, yes. Always gets you your land back, the old 'fire-rockets-at-armed-to-teeth-enemy' gambit, nice one, Centurion . . .

Hamas is not an entirely innocent party in the conflict, but there’s no excuse whatsoever for the actions of Israel in their treatment of the Palestinians in Gaza since the withdrawal, slowly starving them to death and breaking the ceasefire – sooner or later the underdog will try to fight back, what other choice do they have?

The figures speak for themselves. In the three years after the withdrawal from Gaza, 11 Israelis were killed by rocket fire. On the other hand, in 2005-7 alone, the IDF killed 1,290 Palestinians in Gaza, including 222 children.*

Plus about 700 Palestinians in the last few days, with no end in sight.

*source

 

[8ball]

I never said it was an excuse for what Israel are doing, but if you poke a bear and get bit you can't claim it was a surprise.

iirc it was Israel who broke the ceasefire initially so I'm not entirely surprised that Hamas resumed attacks, though.

 

[audiotech]

What did they think israel would do, if they provoked them enough and for long enough?

I never thought that the Israeli's would ever top their previous record of such brutal military methods being used against a civilian population, but my haven't they exceeded that now.

Happy Zachor?

 

[Yetman]

Its all that bitches Cheryl's fault, she was the one who started this so called 'propaganda war' with her lies in the sunday papers when he left her for a pint of cider. Now Israel are involved we'll hopefully see the truth, the REAL truth come out. I personally cant wait.

 

[winjer]

(however it must be noted that Google has an appalling record of censoring information critical of genocidal Anglo-American or Zionist imperialism e.g. see “Western Media and Google Censorship: Google Censors Churchill’s Crimes and British Indian Holocaust”).

The article goes on to provide no evidence of censorship whatsoever.

(If you want accurate, uncensored information you would be well advised to do YAHOO searches).

Provably bollocks.