Hamas/Israel conflict: news and discussion

[littlebabyjesus]

Who is it that would actually do this, though? And at what point would it work? When one fighter does it? 100? 1000?

I was being sarcastic. Men waving white flags get shot dead in Gaza. Even old men waving white flags, let alone young men.

 

[kabbes]

I was being sarcastic. Men waving white flags get shot dead in Gaza. Even old men waving white flags, let alone young men.

Quite.

This whole notion of “it could be over if Hamas just surrendered” is just naive, basically.

 

[mojo pixy]

8ball mainly but anyone who feels like speculating, do so...

If a large number of individuals already wanted for October 7th activities or planning, pitched up to a UN compound and offered to hand themselves over in a (UN supervised?) surrender, how quickly do you think Israeli attacks on Gaza would stop?

 

[ska invita]

Hamas are a direct product of Israeli oppression, actively encouraged and funded by Likud. This is widely known and accepted within Israel. Hamas is a direct extension of Israeli state policy.
The only way to have no Hamas is to end Israeli oppression of Palestinians and allow for a Palestinian state. Israel has funded Hamas exactly so as to stop that from ever happening.
Its why ceasefire calls are pointless, on either side, they do not begin to get to the source of the problem.

 

[N_igma]

A ceasefire would be a fine thing. I never saw the Israelis as likely to go for it, rabid as they have been driven by the attack last year and their Government and media’s capitalising on it.

Regardless, ceasefires end. They can help get aid in, or move people around, but do you think Hamas will suddenly turn into reasonable people when given a chance to rearm?

As someone from the north of Ireland all I can say is that one of the greatest recruitment drives the IRA ever had was Bloody Sunday and other massacres of innocent Catholics by the British Army.

Not only will Israel never defeat Hamas militarily, all they are doing is breeding the next generation of Hamas fighters. You might think Hamas are the scum of the earth, but they will need to be involved in any political settlement coming from this. It’s as simple as that.

The problem is that Israel aren’t interested in taking the actions required to stop the current violence or for a long-term solution which will inevitably involve ending the occupation of Palestine. That will only come about through western intervention which means peace is a long way off. Depressing.

 

[Humberto]

As someone from the north of Ireland all I can say is that one of the greatest recruitment drives the IRA ever had was Bloody Sunday and other massacres of innocent Catholics by the British Army.

Not only will Israel never defeat Hamas militarily, all they are doing is breeding the next generation of Hamas fighters. You might think Hamas are the scum of the earth, but they will need to be involved in any political settlement coming from this. It’s as simple as that.

The problem is that Israel aren’t interested in taking the actions required to stop the current violence or for a long-term solution which will inevitably involve ending the occupation of Palestine. That will only come about through western intervention which means peace is a long way off. Depressing.

It's 10,000s of grieved family members sworn against you for a century and a half. It's a complete disaster.

 

[Gramsci]

A bit of history. Hamas have offered truces more than once.

“Hamas has always said that they are ready to offer a truce and to stop targeting civilians if the [Israeli] occupation removes its settlers,” Tareq Baconi, author of Hamas Contained: The Rise and Pacification of Palestinian Resistance, told Al Jazeera.

How Israel has repeatedly rejected Hamas truce offers

On Sunday, Israeli PM Benjamin Netanyahu turned down a Hamas offer to end the war. It’s only the latest such instance.

www.aljazeera.com

I've mentioned this earlier in the thread. This article summarises it.

Hamas have been willing to accept a two state solution based on 67 borders. Meaning settlers on West Bank need to go.

Over years any offers been rebuffed by Israel.

Its Israeli governments over the years that do not want peace. If that means a viable Palestinian state.

 

[andysays]

Apart from all the other goods points made recently, the idea that if Hamas were to surrender the killing would suddenly stop is nonsense.

The IDF would continue its murderous activities in Gaza, though perhaps scaled down to some extent, at the very least seeking to round up anyone deemed a possible member of Hamas and killing many individuals as a result, quite apart from the deaths from starvation, lack of medical care etc which would continue.

 

[Pickman's model]

I was being sarcastic. Men waving white flags get shot dead in Gaza. Even old men waving white flags, let alone young men.

indeed escaped israeli captives. their fate will have been something of a warning for hamas fighters thinking of trying to surrender.

 

[Cloo]

Proud of my other half... he went to an event at our lead Rabbi's house last night about the ICJ ruling against Israel and responses to it and spoke out, very carefully, about the need not to wave away accusations of genocide or assume Israel isn't capable of it, and he mentioned he was probably along in his opinion. But in discussions afterwards one person told him he was not alone, then another three said the same, and now we're a whataspp group and hoping to identify more people within the community who are on the same wavelength.

 

[Monkeygrinder's Organ]

Proud of my other half... he went to an event at our lead Rabbi's house last night about the ICJ ruling against Israel and responses to it and spoke out, very carefully, about the need not to wave away accusations of genocide or assume Israel isn't capable of it, and he mentioned he was probably along in his opinion. But in discussions afterwards one person told him he was not alone, then another three said the same, and now we're a whataspp group and hoping to identify more people within the community who are on the same wavelength.

Fair play, I'm not a member of that community but I imagine there's a lot of pressure put on people with differing views, it takes a lot of courage to stand up to that.

 

[Cloo]

I was just saying to him that yes, the idea that Jews could commit genocide is a profoundly offensive one. But we shouldn't be so caught up in how offensive it is as a concept not to consider the possibility of it being true.

 

[frogwoman]

I was just saying to him that yes, the idea that Jews could commit genocide is a profoundly offensive one. But we shouldn't be so caught up in how offensive it is as a concept not to consider the possibility of it being true.

Is that WhatsApp group just for your synagogue? If not, could you DM me the link.

 

[Spandex]

I was just saying to him that yes, the idea that Jews could commit genocide is a profoundly offensive one. But we shouldn't be so caught up in how offensive it is as a concept not to consider the possibility of it being true.

Similarly, the idea that Buddhists could commit genocide is a profoundly incongruous one, but Buddhist nationalists in Myanmar have been committing genocide against the Rohingya since 2017. You can't say it'll never happen.

 

[frogwoman]

Yep...it is looking more and more likely that it is genocide. And even if its not then that doesn't mean that its ok. I kind of feel the Israeli state took the fact the court didn't out and out say it was genocide as a reason to just carry on.

 

[Cloo]

My view is that whatever it, it's an abomination by any name and that's the thought to keep hold of.

 

[Spandex]

It is Israel that has attached Hamas giving up as a condition for stopping.

It's been easy for the Israeli government to attach a total Hamas surrender as a condition for stopping, as they know it'll never happen.

In the unlikely event Hamas was to announce their total surrender to the IDF, the Israeli government would be put in an awkward situation that they never expected to happen, finding themselves with a military occupation of a traumatised, ravaged, deeply resentful population, the world's governments clamouring for them to do something that they have no plan for. It wouldn't end well for anyone.

 

[Nylock]

They would immediately switch targets to Islamic jihad, or any other number of smaller groups and use Hamas's surrender as the reason for taking them out.

 

[Gramsci]

The only other time anything like this happened was Lebanon.

PLO / Fatah were in south Lebanon in large numbers after losing base in Jordan

To cut a long story short they agreed to go after putting up a fight.

A deal was done and most went to Tunisia I think.

Those left in refugee camps were slaughtered by Israel proxy the Maronite militia.

With IDF looking on.

Losing last base near Israel fundamentally weakened Fatah. The Intifada later was grass roots West Bank Palestinians. Leadership became cut off from what was happening.

If Hamas fighters are thinking of doing a deal they must have in mind what happened in Lebanon.

"Surrender" did not protect civilians and it led to weakened PLO/ Fatah.

 

[Pickman's model]

It's been easy for the Israeli government to attach a total Hamas surrender as a condition for stopping, as they know it'll never happen.

In the unlikely event Hamas was to announce their total surrender to the IDF, the Israeli government would be put in an awkward situation that they never expected to happen, finding themselves with a military occupation of a traumatised, ravaged, deeply resentful population, the world's governments clamouring for them to do something that they have no plan for. It wouldn't end well for anyone.

no matter what course is chosen (bar the zionists removing the causes of conflict) this isn't going to end well for anyone either

 

[Gramsci]

Antony Loewenstein was on Al Jazeera few days back.

Saying thought Israel would try to get Egypt to take people from Gaza.

Been discussions on a " buffer zone"

The destruction of infrastructure means Gaza is becoming unliveable.

At this time Egypt are saying no. But they are capable of being bought off.

 

[ska invita]

At this time Egypt are saying no. But they are capable of being bought off.

Building a new walled camp on the edge of Sinai might be on the cards but letting Palestinians into Egypt proper highly unlikely I expect

 

[teqniq]

FFS

 

[Gramsci]

Building a new walled camp on the edge of Sinai might be on the cards but letting Palestinians into Egypt proper highly unlikely I expect

Yes. Sounds a buffer zone sounds like a designated area between Egypt and Israel in Sinai.

If it is real possibility I doubt Palestinians would want to go.

 

[Gramsci]

FFS

Saw this on Al Jazeera last night.

Reporter in Gaza says credible reports that IDF are arresting staff.

That IDF are trying to get patients moved to one area of hospital.

That IDF knocked out the oxygen supply for hospital.

I would have thought invading a hospital in this manner is a war crime.

It's not even that secret.

Get the impression that IDF/ Israeli government are sticking to fingers up to ICJ. And don't think Biden will do anything.

Al Jazeera reporter said IDF told people to leave. But when they leave some have been attacked by the drones with guns Israel has.

This has slipped down the pages of media here. But still all over Al Jazeera.

Who still have reporters on the ground.

 

[Pickman's model]

Saw this on Al Jazeera last night.

Reporter in Gaza says credible reports that IDF are arresting staff.

That IDF are trying to get patients moved to one area of hospital.

That IDF knocked out the oxygen supply for hospital.

I would have thought invading a hospital in this manner is a war crime.

It's not even that secret.

Get the impression that IDF/ Israeli government are sticking to fingers up to ICJ. And don't think Biden will do anything.

Al Jazeera reporter said IDF told people to leave. But when they leave some have been attacked by the drones with guns Israel has.

This has slipped down the pages of media here. But still all over Al Jazeera.

Who still have reporters on the ground.

as well as in it

 

[Aladdin]

View attachment 412328

Gaza: Displaced people sheltering at Nasser Hospital forced to evacuate

MSF staff remain treating patients in near impossible conditions

msf.org.uk

The Israelis lie and lie and lie.

 

[PTK]

Similarly, the idea that Buddhists could commit genocide is a profoundly incongruous one, but Buddhist nationalists in Myanmar have been committing genocide against the Rohingya since 2017. You can't say it'll never happen.

Yep, and buddhist monks led pogroms against Tamils in Lanka in 1983.

 

[PTK]

My view is that whatever it, it's an abomination by any name and that's the thought to keep hold of.

I use the legal term "crimes against humanity", which is easier to prove than genocide.

 

[Aladdin]

You said they were bastards.
Are you saying they should surrender?

That would be like asking the IRA of 1916 - 1921 to surrender to the Brits. Come on .. its a lot more tricky than "surrender and all will go well"