Hamas/Israel conflict: news and discussion

[Boris Sprinkler]

He’s also a shit actor. 2/10.

 

[ID47]

Do you have anything to say about this?

Shame he wasn't the first to get a bullet.

Would probably have saved thousands of lives on both sides.

 

[_Russ_]

Do you have anything to say about this?

I do...the man is a cunt crying crocotears for those he uses to advance his policy of destroying Palastinian houses and lives then stealing their land.

Smotrich is a settler in the Israeli-occupied West Bank, living in the settlement of Kedumim, which is illegal under international law. His residence was also built illegally outside the settlement proper.

How about you?, got anything?

 

[tim]

I do...the man is a cunt crying crocotears for those he uses to advance his policy of destroying Palastinian houses and lives then stealing their land.

Smotrich is a settler in the Israeli-occupied West Bank, living in the settlement of Kedumim, which is illegal under international law. His residence was also built illegally outside the settlement proper.

How about you?, got anything?

No, I knew nothing about him, which aside from being in the forum rules is why enlightenment is always useful.

 

[HeAthen]

I do...the man is a cunt crying crocotears for those he uses to advance his policy of destroying Palastinian houses and lives then stealing their land.

Smotrich is a settler in the Israeli-occupied West Bank, living in the settlement of Kedumim, which is illegal under international law. His residence was also built illegally outside the settlement proper.

How about you?, got anything?

Yep, he's an utter scum bag and not alone in that either.

 

[ID47]

No, I knew nothing about him, which aside from being in the forum rules is why enlightenment is always useful.

What have 'the forum rules' got to do with that bastard Smotich?

 

[tim]

What have 'the forum rules' got to do with that bastard Smotich?

Because they save us being bombarded with comnent free links.

From the FAQs:

"Content-free posts are not permitted. Posts containing nothing more than links to websites or video files are not permitted. Please explain the nature and relevance of the linked content as a courtesy to users."

 

[ID47]

Because they save us being bombarded with comnent free links.

From the FAQs:

"Content-free posts are not permitted. Posts containing nothing more than links to websites or video files are not permitted. Please explain the nature and relevance of the linked content as a courtesy to users."

Leave the moderators to do their job, it is not for the self appointed likes of you to decide who are committing infractions.

Go ahead and report, who gives a fuck.

 

[teqniq]

No, I knew nothing about him, which aside from being in the forum rules is why enlightenment is always useful.

I am genuinely surprised that you knew nothing about him. A search of this thread reveals his name in 2 pages worth of replies. He is talked about a lot online as the far-right minister of finance in Netanyahu's coalition government. This is fairly common knowledge.

 

[tim]

Leave the moderators to do their job, it is not for the self appointed likes of you to decide who are committing infractions.

Go ahead and report, who gives a fuck.

It tedious and lazy which is a good enough reason for fucks being given.

 

[Petcha]

The head of UNRWA was just on bbc news. He didn't deny some of his staff were involved with the attacks but said they addressed it. Anyone know what evidence the Israelis have?

 

[nino_savatte]

......you still call it "bothsidesing"

So, you'd collaborate with the occupier, aye? Thanks, that's all I needed to know.

Oh, and you avoided my points to make a cheap shot.

 

[nino_savatte]

You don't remember Milosevic being described as "the new Hitler"?

See also Vladimir Putin, Gamal Abdel Nasser and Saddam Hussein.

 

[ID47]

The head of UNRWA was just on bbc news. He didn't deny some of his staff were involved with the attacks but said they addressed it. Anyone know what evidence the Israelis have?

They were in Gaza? They were Palestinians? They were probably Muslims? It's enough evidence to kill tens of thousands of women and children so should be more than enough for Israel to decide they were guilty.

 

[Petcha]

They were in Gaza? They were Palestinians? They were probably Muslims? It's enough evidence to kill tens of thousands of women and children so should be more than enough for Israel to decide they were guilty.

This is the best I could find. Very tenuous.

A six-page Israeli dossier shared with the US accused 12 Unrwa staff members of taking part in the 7 October 2023 attacks, including nine who it said worked as teachers in the agency’s schools.

The dossier said Israel also had wider evidence that Unrwa has employed 190 Hamas and Islamic Jihad militants, which would represent 0.64% of the total Unrwa staff if true. The agency fired nine employees after an investigation but denied it knowingly aids armed groups.

 

[PTK]

An Israeli politician said on Radio 4 yesterday that there employees of UNRWA who had close family members who were in Hamas.

 

[agricola]

Watched this interview with the Conservative Alan Duncan

A wide ranging interview just under 30 minutes.

He's that somewhat rare case of a Tory who supports Palestinian rights.

In short he believes in a Two State Solution. From what he was saying Id say with Israel in pre 67 borders.

On the Conservative party he is scathing. In his view the Conservative Friends of Israel have undue influence and work through undemocratic back channels. It's not a conspiracy to say that they have contacts with Israel state.

In his view this means that the actual Conservative policy, supporting a Two State Solution and opposing settlement building, isn't followed.

Some Conservatives might say they support a two state solution but don't mean it. He does and that's why he has got into trouble.

He also says due to the undue influence of Conservative Friends of Israel some MPs just keep quiet.

Alan Duncan had to clear his name after he was accused of anti semitism. It's a lot to have to deal with

He also thinks a lot of new MPs just don't know much about the middle east. The roots of the conflict. That it started decades ago.

As far as he's concerned he was the one who followed official Conservative policy.

He was asked about the new contenders for the leadership.

On Jenrick he's scathing. An example of someone who publicly goes against what is official Conservative policy. Out and out support Israel hundred percent.

Alan Duncan opposed Hamas attack. But does say Palestinians have a right to defend themselves. Case in point is the frequent attacks by armed settlers in West Bank. There are legitimate reasons for defence.

He says that Netanyahu and those who support him are making a mistake. Duncan thinks long term they want a Greater Israel. Adding West Bank and Gaza. Instead of making peace with a two state solution. Duncan said without a genuine two state solution the violence will continue in decades to come

And at end he did say he hopes people continue peacefully and within the law to protest. As in demos.

Interesting to hear a Conservative go on like this.

It's not necessarily a right left issue. Even back in days of Mandate there were old Imperial hands in the Foreign office who though supporting Zionism was a mistake as regards the Empire.

This issue would not be so contentious here if cross party view taken was the kind of thing he's saying in this interview.

IMO the way both Tory and Labour leadership have been going is helping make this a divisive issue in this country. It's not the protestors.

His experience also show their is an Israeli lobby in this country. And whilst not as powerful as in US it does exist. And it has effects on foreign policy. Which Duncan thinks is circumventing proper democratic debate from his experience.

The late Sir Michael Ancram was another one:

Michael Ancram's legacy offers lessons for a time of war

His deft diplomacy stands in sharp contrast to the likes of Netanyahu, Biden and Starmer

www.middleeasteye.net

With regards for the pro-Arab positions in parts of the government, it lasted a lot longer than suggested - its even parodied in “Yes, Prime Minister”, and all PMs up to Cameron took some kind of action against the Israeli government (the arms embargo being the most obvious). The influence of the lobby here is a relatively new phenomenon and, as repeated polling demonstrates, doesn’t extend very far outside the fetid pool of MPs, prospective MPs and hacks.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

An Israeli politician said on Radio 4 yesterday that there employees of UNRWA who had close family members who were in Hamas.

Trans: Some UNRWA employees are Palestinians.

 

[HeAthen]

An Israeli politician said on Radio 4 yesterday that there employees of UNRWA who had close family members who were in Hamas.

If they did (and it's a big IF), that just shows that the Israeli regime are very happy with meting out collective punishment which I'm pretty sure is against international law. Mind you, we know they regard themselves as above such trivialities.

 

[Gramsci]

The late Sir Michael Ancram was another one:

Michael Ancram's legacy offers lessons for a time of war

His deft diplomacy stands in sharp contrast to the likes of Netanyahu, Biden and Starmer

www.middleeasteye.net

With regards for the pro-Arab positions in parts of the government, it lasted a lot longer than suggested - its even parodied in “Yes, Prime Minister”, and all PMs up to Cameron took some kind of action against the Israeli government (the arms embargo being the most obvious). The influence of the lobby here is a relatively new phenomenon and, as repeated polling demonstrates, doesn’t extend very far outside the fetid pool of MPs, prospective MPs and hacks.

I didn't know about him. An interesting read.

I do wonder why the Lobby has got more influential.

It doesn't make sense. Israel has moved to the right. Settlement building only increased over the years. ( As Alan Duncan pointed out). Yet the pro Israel lobby has got louder.

Nor do I think it's in this countries long term foreign policy interest to give this amount of support to Israel.

For what purpose? It just seems this country is supposed to give Israel a lot of support and that's just how things are.

I never see any politician giving a proper explanation why

Any backbench MP who did or said what Ancram had would now be treated as off the wall lefty.

This from article ,

By defining the opposing side as evil, it leaves no room for negotiations. The US and Israel do not want negotiations with Hamas of the sort that successfully occurred with the IRA.

They want only to defeat it militarily

As has been pointed out more than once on this thread Hamas were available for negotiation.

 

[ska invita]

I see the Israeli government have got frustrated by the rate of Palestinian death by starvation and decided the pace needs picking up

 

[Boris Sprinkler]

An Israeli politician said on Radio 4 yesterday that there employees of UNRWA who had close family members who were in Hamas.

Yes, collective punishment.

 

[agricola]

I didn't know about him. An interesting read.

I do wonder why the Lobby has got more influential.

It doesn't make sense. Israel has moved to the right. Settlement building only increased over the years. ( As Alan Duncan pointed out). Yet the pro Israel lobby has got louder.

Nor do I think it's in this countries long term foreign policy interest to give this amount of support to Israel.

For what purpose? It just seems this country is supposed to give Israel a lot of support and that's just how things are.

I never see any politician giving a proper explanation why

Any backbench MP who did or said what Ancram had would now be treated as off the wall lefty.

It’s very difficult to think of one; I know a lot of people talk about it allowing the US / West to interfere in the region but to be honest that sounds more like a reason put about after the fact to support them (the Israeli state).

 

[planetgeli]

The head of UNRWA was just on bbc news. He didn't deny some of his staff were involved with the attacks but said they addressed it. Anyone know what evidence the Israelis have?

https://www.unrwa.org/unrwa-claims-versus-facts-february-2024

Fill yer boots. It's long. Unfortunately it has to be, as Israel has made many bullshit claims to refute.

 

[ID47]

I didn't know about him. An interesting read.

I do wonder why the Lobby has got more influential.

It doesn't make sense. Israel has moved to the right. Settlement building only increased over the years. ( As Alan Duncan pointed out). Yet the pro Israel lobby has got louder.

Nor do I think it's in this countries long term foreign policy interest to give this amount of support to Israel.

For what purpose? It just seems this country is supposed to give Israel a lot of support and that's just how things are.

I never see any politician giving a proper explanation why

Any backbench MP who did or said what Ancram had would now be treated as off the wall lefty.

This from article ,


As has been pointed out more than once on this thread Hamas were available for negotiation.

Generally fascist regimes tend to get more extreme as they approach their death throes. Fascist Italy and the subsequent RSI (Italian Social Republic) being a classic example. Some of Israel's abominable actions and sex based depravity remind me strongly of 'Pasolini's Salò, or the 120 days of Sodom'. A film set in the dying days of fascism and not for those of a sensitive disposition.

 

[frogwoman]

This UNWRA stuff is important enough to need its own thread imo.

 

[frogwoman]

What are the international implications if Israel gets kicked out of the UN?

I thought I'd start this thread for a bit more of a theoretical discussion than on the main Israel threads which should really be kept for discussions on what Israel (and Hamas, Hezbollah, the US etc) are actually doing. Some people are saying that if Israel is kicked out, then this could lead...

www.urban75.net

 

[Cloo]

Great comment I heard reported from a Standing Together event last night on what the UK Board of Deputies ought to be doing:

The Israeli government has been insistent on creating a narrow understanding of what it means to support Israel – that it means supporting the current government. The Israeli right has been very consistent in peddling this in the Jewish diaspora. There should be a difference between “standing with Israel” – standing with its government, which currently means supporting terrible things – and “standing with Israelis”, which currently means being harshly critical of the government and what Bibi and the far right are trying to do to our land, which is terrible for Israelis as well as for Palestinians. If this war continues then it is unclear what will be left in Gaza for Palestinians. But it’s also not clear what would be left of Israeli society either, given the normalisation of the language of genocide, delegitimization of the Palestinian people and the undermining of democratic rights – it is starting with Palestinian citizens but it won’t end there. The government has a messianic vision which will be hellish when they realise it. If Jews here have affinity with Israel and worry about the future of the country, they must look the Israeli government in the eyes and say – stop, this is bad for Israelis and for Palestinian. And they should raise voice of Palestinians and Israelis working for a better future. If we can do that in Israel surely the Jewish community here can do that and criticise what’s going on and not only behind closed doors.

 

[Knotted]

I haven't been keeping up with this thread - I'm 16 pages behind. But I have been following events closely. We're obviously moving into a much more desperate stage now of ethnically cleansing the north of Gaza and limiting aid below starvation levels for the entire population.

My thinking is that this is the first step of settling Gaza and the removal of the entire Palestinian population as a security threat to that settlement project. And I think they will turn their full attention to the West Bank at some point. So there are going to be inevitable Palestinian retaliations in the West Bank and probably from Palestinian citizens of Israel which can fuel a project of "completing 1948". The slaughter and dispossession is just going to keep rolling on under the guise of the cycle of violence.

There's been a long standing Israeli pragmatic security argument against expanding settlements, including settling Gaza. But the flip side of that is that you can remove certain populations, settle the area and then after (attempted) retaliations have more security clamp downs to remove more populations and so on.

At the start I thought they were going to pummel Gaza into the ground, and wreak terrible vengeance on the civilian population and this would last a matter of months. And they have done this. But I now think we're looking at something bigger, if it's allowed to happen.

One thing I have contempt for are the reports that the Americans are expressing grave concerns. They have the ability to pull the plug on this at any point. We should think of Israel as America's proxy - the Israelis have their own agenda and act independently, but effectively they act with the blessings of the US government. This is America's (to a lesser extend Germany's, the UK's and all the rest) genocide and it could be going on for years or even decades. We could be talking millions of deaths and refugees.

 

[frogwoman]

Pickman's model agricola etc

What are the international implications if Israel gets kicked out of the UN?

I thought I'd start this thread for a bit more of a theoretical discussion than on the main Israel threads which should really be kept for discussions on what Israel (and Hamas, Hezbollah, the US etc) are actually doing. Some people are saying that if Israel is kicked out, then this could lead...

www.urban75.net