Hamas/Israel conflict: news and discussion

[Gramsci]

Saw Mustafa Barghouti was on Al Jazeera. Always worth listening to. Born in West Bank and lived nearly all of his life under Israeli occupation. A doctor who got a lot of respect for organising medical teams in the Intifada

Set up a secular group independent of Hamas and Fatah. The Palestine National Initiative



Ever the optimistic. He argues that Israel (as it is now) / Zionism is on its way out.

TBF I think he's a bit to optimistic. Israel looks to me to be doing fine. Finally dealing with the Palestinian problem for once and for all. The unfinished business from 48

I suppose its the if one thinks the glass is half full or half empty.

Israel has economic he says problems. Going to have difficulties sustaining a war long term

He says three elements

Palestinian steadfastness. Sumud in Arabic. The courage to refuse to leave in face of Zionist settler colonialism

The Palestinian fighters who take on IDF

Third and imo most important is world wide public opinion. Israel is now starting to be seen as Pariah state. So its worth going on all those demos. Even if Western political elites support Israel.

On the Arab countries he says the Arab people are seething with anger. It's the undemocratic elites who run Arab countries that don't do more to help Palestinians

Begs the question. Do Western countries governments really want a democratic middle east? If that happened the Arab people would be demanding their governments to do more to defend Palestinians

On Hamas his view is that this should be up to Palestinian people with a vote. If some want Hamas representation so be it.

 

[agricola]

Saw Mustafa Barghouti was on Al Jazeera. Always worth listening to. Born in West Bank and lived nearly all of his life under Israeli occupation. A doctor who got a lot of respect for organising medical teams in the Intifada

Set up a secular group independent of Hamas and Fatah. The Palestine National Initiative



Ever the optimistic. He argues that Israel / Zionism is on its way out.

TBF I think he's a bit to optimistic. Israel looks to me to be doing fine. Finally dealing with the Palestinian problem for once and for all. The unfinished business from 48

I suppose its the if one thinks the glass is half full or half empty.

Israel has economic he says problems. Going to have difficulties sustaining a war long term

He says three elements

Palestinian steadfastness. Sumud in Arabic. The courage to refuse to leave in face of Zionist settler colonialism

The Palestinian fighters who take on IDF

Third and imo most important is world wide public opinion. Israel is now starting to be seen as Pariah state. So its worth going on all those demos. Even if Western political elites support Israel.

On the Arab countries he says the Arab people are seething with anger. It's the undemocratic elites who run Arab countries that don't do more to help Palestinians

Begs the question. Do Western countries governments really want a democratic middle east? If that happened the Arab people would be demanding their governments to do more to defend Palestinians

On Hamas his view is that this should be up to Palestinian people with a vote. If some want Hamas representation so be it.

He is right, though. Zionism (as opposed to Israel) is clearly on its way out, even the people over here who support the "Israeli has a right to self-defence" argument are clearly not having a jot of what that Smotrich, Weiss and Ben-Gvir and their ilk are saying - yet that is the direction of travel of that ideology.

 

[little_legs]

This is not a parody: https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveb...-gazans-setting-home-on-fire-to-boost-morale/

 

[teqniq]

3 more journalists killed in Israeli attacks in Gaza as death toll rises to 180

 

[Johnny Vodka]

He is right, though. Zionism (as opposed to Israel) is clearly on its way out, even the people over here who support the "Israeli has a right to self-defence" argument are clearly not having a jot of what that Smotrich, Weiss and Ben-Gvir and their ilk are saying - yet that is the direction of travel of that ideology.

Unconvinced while the US (and to some extent) the UK let Israel do whatever it likes, at worst maybe dishing out some gentle criticism, but continuing to supply weapons and veto resolutions that might see Palestinians being treated with an even hand. I see mainly Zionists becoming more emboldened, and at this rate, there will be barely any Palestinians left or even artefacts of their culture.

 

[Boris Sprinkler]

Israeli TV presenter faces criticism after blowing up building in Lebanon

Danny Kushmaro helps detonate a building in southern Lebanon that soldiers claim was used to fire rockets into Israel

www.middleeasteye.net

Israel bombs journalists. Israeli journalists detonate bombs. Interesting 5 words he chooses to end his piece with.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

This is not a parody: https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveb...-gazans-setting-home-on-fire-to-boost-morale/

This is what humans are capable of when they dehumanise their enemy. Nothing is out of bounds. They then go home and hug their kids.

 

[ID47]

Excellent article on the situation (surprisingly from the uber zionist Guardian) and I fully concur with the last paragraph. It's up to all of us, collaborate or resist. The choice is clear, the right path is clear.

The lesson of Israel’s unfathomably cruel war: ours is still a world where might is right | Nesrine Malik

All the protests and legalistic wins have been rendered meaningless by the relentless assault on north Gaza, says Guardian columnist Nesrine Malik

www.theguardian.com

 

[agricola]

Unconvinced while the US (and to some extent) the UK let Israel do whatever it likes, at worst maybe dishing out some gentle criticism, but continuing to supply weapons and veto resolutions that might see Palestinians being treated with an even hand. I see mainly Zionists becoming more emboldened, and at this rate, there will be barely any Palestinians left or even artefacts of their culture.

How long are they going to give that support in exchange for getting less that nothing in exhibit though?

Look at Biden, who poured money, munitions and personal political support into the country and has seen the Israeli right from Netanyahu down treat him with barely disguised contempt. This isn’t sustainable, and irrespective of whether Trump wins or not the next US President is not going to give them a blank cheque in the way that they once could have expected.

 

[ID47]

How long are they going to give that support in exchange for getting less that nothing in exhibit though?

Look at Biden, who poured money, munitions and personal political support into the country and has seen the Israeli right from Netanyahu down treat him with barely disguised contempt. This isn’t sustainable, and irrespective of whether Trump wins or not the next US President is not going to give them a blank cheque in the way that they once could have expected.

Would hope that to be true but sadly I doubt it. Both candidates. and Starmer too for that matter, have direct personal family interest in Israel. They have skin in the game, they will never ever stop financial, military and political support.

It's like organised crime but with crimes against humanity thrown in.

 

[Johnny Vodka]

Would hope that to be true but sadly I doubt it. Both candidates. and Starmer too for that matter, have direct personal family interest in Israel. They have skin in the game, they will never ever stop financial, military and political support.

It's like organised crime but with crimes against humanity thrown in.

Indeed. Remember this?

Jared Kushner says Gaza’s ‘waterfront property could be very valuable’

Donald Trump’s son-in-law also says Israel should bulldoze an area of the Negev desert and move Palestinians there

www.theguardian.com

Not sure what military support for Israel would like under Trump, but I think he'd be willing to demonise the Palestinians even more and positively support the continued stealing of land.

 

[ID47]

Indeed. Remember this?

Jared Kushner says Gaza’s ‘waterfront property could be very valuable’

Donald Trump’s son-in-law also says Israel should bulldoze an area of the Negev desert and move Palestinians there

www.theguardian.com

Not sure what military support for Israel would like under Trump, but I think he'd be willing to demonise the Palestinians even more and positively support the continued stealing of land.

I do.

And that is before they bulldoze the billions of tons of rubble into the sea to make reclaimed land. Rubble that contains the bodies and body parts of tens of thousands murdered by the fascist regime thereby hiding forever a good part of their appalling crimes.

As for theft it is what Trump and his father before him have based their entire lives on.

 

[teqniq]

Indeed. Remember this?

Jared Kushner says Gaza’s ‘waterfront property could be very valuable’

Donald Trump’s son-in-law also says Israel should bulldoze an area of the Negev desert and move Palestinians there

www.theguardian.com

Not sure what military support for Israel would like under Trump, but I think he'd be willing to demonise the Palestinians even more and positively support the continued stealing of land.

This seems to be indicative:

Trump signals support in call with Netanyahu: ‘Do what you have to do’

 

[Nylock]

<...> This isn’t sustainable, and irrespective of whether Trump wins or not the next US President is not going to give them a blank cheque in the way that they once could have expected.

It doesn't need to be sustainable for the long-term, just sustainable enough until Trump enters office. If Trump loses, Netanyahu and his henchmen will make a big show of winding down operations but the IDF will still drag it out as long as they can get away with...

 

[teqniq]

Fair play South Africa!

South Africa delivers evidence of Israel genocide to ICJ | The Presidency

www.thepresidency.gov.za

 

[teqniq]

@MiddleEastEye
‘I buried my son in the hospital yard’
The director of north Gaza’s besieged Kamal Adwan Hospital, Dr Hussam Abu Safiya, became emotional as he mourned the death of his son, Ibrahim, who was killed in the latest Israeli attack on the facility on Saturday.
Earlier this month, the Israeli military launched a major operation around Kamal Adwan hospital, the only operating hospital in northern Gaza.
Israeli air strikes targeted the hospital and its courtyards, damaging the oxygen generator, according to Dr Munir al-Bursh, director general of the Palestinian health ministry.
The attack on the oxygen supply caused the deaths of children in the hospital and injured medical staff,

View attachment ssstwitter.com_1730134270419.mp4

source

 

[_Russ_]

How long are they going to give that support in exchange for getting less that nothing in exhibit though?

Look at Biden, who poured money, munitions and personal political support into the country and has seen the Israeli right from Netanyahu down treat him with barely disguised contempt. This isn’t sustainable, and irrespective of whether Trump wins or not the next US President is not going to give them a blank cheque in the way that they once could have expected.

Any reasonable person would hope that the next US Administration would water down its support of the Zionists but look what happened here, new suppossedly Left wing administration* comes into power whilst Israel is bombing the Life out of a population and we have the same no ifs no buts support of Israel as we've always had
I think it's unrealistic to expect any shift.



*(yea I know a joke but claiming the Dems in the US are left wing is equally absurd)

 

[PR1Berske]

UK foreign secretary doesn't approve of the term "genocide"

 

[_Russ_]

In one sentence stating firmly the term is completely inappropriate and not accurate then saying it must be decided if it is so by the courts....so which is it?
.....maybe the dull cunt should stfu

 

[ID47]

Time to expel Israel from the UN, no ifs, no buts.

 

[planetgeli]

UK foreign secretary doesn't approve of the term "genocide"

View attachment 448770

Srebrenica and Bosnia in general are commemorated in Holocaust museums worldwide. 8,000 and 30,000 respectively.

Gaza stands at 43000 and fuck all infrastructure left.

 

[tim]

Time to expel Israel from the UN, no ifs, no buts.

As I've suggested before, I don't think you understand what the UN is and how it works. It's not an organisation uniting nice people to do nice stuff. It's run by cUNts in the interest of cUNts.

 

[agricola]

Time to expel Israel from the UN, no ifs, no buts.

Not that it will get one, but this needs a strong diplomatic response from the remaining countries who back "Israel's right to self-defence" who also begged them publicly and privately not to do this. Everyone understands what it means, about the absolute lack of any alternative means by which millions of people can be supported - it is clearly genocidal in intent.

 

[redsquirrel]

Would hope that to be true but sadly I doubt it. Both candidates. and Starmer too for that matter, have direct personal family interest in Israel. They have skin in the game, they will never ever stop financial, military and political support.

It's like organised crime but with crimes against humanity thrown in.

The UK government does not support Isreal because the current PMs wife is Jewish. And frankly that type of comment is verging on anti-semitic, even if it is not your intention it comes very close to the trope of Jewish puppet masters pulling strings

 

[Gramsci]

UK foreign secretary doesn't approve of the term "genocide"

View attachment 448770

"The way they are now used undermines the serious of that term"

There is a plausible case that South Africa is pursuing. Does Lammy think South Africa are undermining the seriousness of that term?

 

[Gramsci]

Watched this interview with the Conservative Alan Duncan

A wide ranging interview just under 30 minutes.

He's that somewhat rare case of a Tory who supports Palestinian rights.

In short he believes in a Two State Solution. From what he was saying Id say with Israel in pre 67 borders.

On the Conservative party he is scathing. In his view the Conservative Friends of Israel have undue influence and work through undemocratic back channels. It's not a conspiracy to say that they have contacts with Israel state.

In his view this means that the actual Conservative policy, supporting a Two State Solution and opposing settlement building, isn't followed.

Some Conservatives might say they support a two state solution but don't mean it. He does and that's why he has got into trouble.

He also says due to the undue influence of Conservative Friends of Israel some MPs just keep quiet.

Alan Duncan had to clear his name after he was accused of anti semitism. It's a lot to have to deal with

He also thinks a lot of new MPs just don't know much about the middle east. The roots of the conflict. That it started decades ago.

As far as he's concerned he was the one who followed official Conservative policy.

He was asked about the new contenders for the leadership.

On Jenrick he's scathing. An example of someone who publicly goes against what is official Conservative policy. Out and out support Israel hundred percent.

Alan Duncan opposed Hamas attack. But does say Palestinians have a right to defend themselves. Case in point is the frequent attacks by armed settlers in West Bank. There are legitimate reasons for defence.

He says that Netanyahu and those who support him are making a mistake. Duncan thinks long term they want a Greater Israel. Adding West Bank and Gaza. Instead of making peace with a two state solution. Duncan said without a genuine two state solution the violence will continue in decades to come

And at end he did say he hopes people continue peacefully and within the law to protest. As in demos.

Interesting to hear a Conservative go on like this.

It's not necessarily a right left issue. Even back in days of Mandate there were old Imperial hands in the Foreign office who thought supporting Zionism was a mistake as regards the Empire.

This issue would not be so contentious here if cross party view taken was the kind of thing he's saying in this interview.

IMO the way both Tory and Labour leadership have been going is helping make this a divisive issue in this country. It's not the protestors.

His experience also show their is an Israeli lobby in this country. And whilst not as powerful as in US it does exist. And it has effects on foreign policy. Which Duncan thinks is circumventing proper democratic debate from his experience.

 

[Gramsci]

Not that it will get one, but this needs a strong diplomatic response from the remaining countries who back "Israel's right to self-defence" who also begged them publicly and privately not to do this. Everyone understands what it means, about the absolute lack of any alternative means by which millions of people can be supported - it is clearly genocidal in intent.

I actually think its more to do with getting more Israel state control over West Bank and Gaza

Apart from food relief it was the UN Refugees and Works Agency. Set up early after the Nakba. With the word Works added once it was realised these were not temporary refugees.

The new Israel state ( David Ben Gurion) refused to allow them back.

So after the Nakba the Gaza strip population went up dramatically.

Anyone trying to get back to their land or villages was likely to be shot by the new IDF.

UNRWA quickly became not only a giver of aid but an employer. In the absence of a state it ended up functioning to keep Palestinian community going.

Its this rather than cutting of food supplies that the Israeli right want to attack.

If your long term aim is to take over West Bank and Gaza for a Greater Israel then an agency that for decades has kept the Palestinians going has now become a hindrance.

There are things to criticise UNRWA for. Not the people in it but the ways its had to operate. Being both a refugee and works agency meant its remit was no longer solving the refugee problem. Which should have happened after hostilities ended was that those Palestinians should have been helped back to their homes.

Now there is the surreal situation where people are inheriting the refugee status. It's in some ways a frozen conflict. Handed down the generations. Nor was it that long ago. This is why the conflict continues. And will continue.

There was no practical reason why they could not have gone back in early years of Israel state. Except people like David Ben Gurion opposed it.

At that time the more sensible Zionists like Moshe Dayan were happy for an international body to take the responsibility. Didn't cost Israel anything.

And their are discussions in Israel of getting private concerns into do it.

Post in thread 'Hamas/Israel conflict: news and discussion' Hamas/Israel conflict: news and discussion

 

[little_legs]

 

[tim]

Do you have anything to say about this?

 

[little_legs]

he's right, the price is unfair, there should be more dead iof soldiers